1033 réponses à ce sujet

[Lulupab]

MisterJB wrote...

That's the way you see it. I see it differently and I have access to all the information the lore can provide.
Not only do the people of Thedas don't have this commodity, they already hate the mages to begin with. Seeing them using their magic to impose their will upon the world will not endear them to anyone, even if no mage attacked civilians, summoned demons or became an Abomination which is impossible, anyway.

I have read all the novels and comics too. As a reasonable pro-templar and not  a"all mages must die" persona, what do you think of this (below), I want to know your opinion, I already asked it once before.

There have been a war between Orlais and Ferelden. While I do not call any of the nations responsible it was a war that winning it benefitted both sides. Orlais won but instead of committing genocide (beside the people who died in the war itself) Orlais enslaved and used both the people and resources of Ferelden. Mages of Tevinter did the very same thing Orlais did to Ferelden to Mundanes. After a thousand year mundanes did the same thing to mages, it was less harsher than what mages did to mundanes but I think passage of time and "holiness" of Andraste was the main reason mundanes were much less harsh but they indeed imprisoned if not enslaved mages and used them whenever they needed and enchantment and other services of circle has founded this whole thing, basically costing nothing econimically to imprison mages.

Now again after almost another thousand year same thing has happened. Do we repeat what happened before or do we purpose a new way? Both sides "had their fun". Now its time for a better solution and perfect balance between freedom and control. If we repeat the cycle, every now and then wars similar to mage-templar or Andrastian war will happen, its inevitable. You cannot blame mages for this as you cannot blame people who rebelled against Tevinter, because they sure as hell caused death and a lot of it.

[Jaison1986]

MisterJB wrote...

That's the way you see it. I see it differently and I have access to all the information the lore can provide.
Not only do the people of Thedas don't have this commodity, they already hate the mages to begin with. Seeing them using their magic to impose their will upon the world will not endear them to anyone, even if no mage attacked civilians, summoned demons or became an Abomination which is impossible, anyway.

The templars are screwed in this aspect as well. Cullen already said the order was getting pretty unpopular, saying they are likely to have people help them out as much as to slam their doors in their faces. And now combine this with the red templars tainting their name even further, the people of Thedas will hate them as much as the mages.

[thetinyevil]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

thetinyevil wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

@thetinyevil: Nope, Gregoir NEVER said that the qunari's method is the way to go. He said that the qunari wouldn't have been in that situation, which is completely true (regardless of how horrible I think their method to handle mages is). If his mindset would've been the same of the qunari, he'd have killed all the mages tha survived, or killed Anders the first time he escape and was brought back.

Ander is a spirit healer very rare and very useful tool nothing more. It wasn't some sort of compassion or kindness it was usefulness. Also I'm sure it would have been a pain in the ass to have to order more mages to replace the dead ones.

What drug are you on right now?

Order new mages? From where? Home shopping channel?

Do you have any proof Gregoir doesn't have compassion (even tough his own lines clearly show he has plenty)

I also took what he said to mean he agreed with the way the Qunari deal with their mages. I thought you did too? Aren't you anti-mage? Or am I mis-reading things again?

You are mis-reading everything. All the time. Again and again.

City: Dellusionville
Population: you.

No I'm not on drugs, I just don't see the templars in the delusional way you do, as an organization that is there to make sure the mages get used as tools or are destoryed like rabid animals. I seen no compassion in any of Greagoir's lines, he has little love for mages. As for ordering more mages, how do you think they replace the ones that die or get made tranquil the order the from other circles. After all mage's aren't people to templars and Chantry  they are property. 

[Veruin]

Jaison1986 wrote...

The templars are screwed in this aspect as well. Cullen already said the order was getting pretty unpopular, saying they are likely to have people help them out as much as to slam their doors in their faces. And now combine this with the red templars tainting their name even further, the people of Thedas will hate them as much as the mages.

You should take into account this is also the city where Templar presence is rather high.. as well as having Meridith in charge.  The Templars in Lothering/Denerim/Redcliffe didn't seem to be hated.  I don't know why people think  "This character said something!  It is now a universal truth!"

Modifié par Veruin, 06 février 2014 - 02:31 .

[The Elder King]

@Lotion Soronnar: which latest info suggests that mages are under siege and the war isn't going well? In DAI's interviews, they never specified on how the war is going. They stated that there's war, the conflict is grey, and that an Inquisitor must find a balance between mages and templars. I'm not saying that it wouldn't happen in DAI, but so far we know almost anything about the mage-templar war.

[MisterJB]

As I said before, the Circle is not about punishment, it's about prevention. It was not established so that mages could "know what it feels like", it was created to protect normal people from magical abuse and non-magical society from magical domination as well as to prevent war between normal people and mages.
And those dangers are as real today as they were nine centuries ago; they haven't diminished even if normals and mages were "even" which they aren't.

Everyone wants a "perfect balance between freedom and control" but it's impossible to find it. Nine centuries ago, the Circle was seen as the best compromise; now the mages are not happy and are rebelling. Whatever system is put in place; regardless if it's better or worse; will only last until one of the groups feels they aren't being given what they are entitled to and then there'll be war again. That is inevitable.

That is not to say we shouldn't attempt to improve the conditions within the Circle, of course.

[MisterJB]

Jaison1986 wrote...
The templars are screwed in this aspect as well. Cullen already said the order was getting pretty unpopular, saying they are likely to have people help them out as much as to slam their doors in their faces. And now combine this with the red templars tainting their name even further, the people of Thedas will hate them as much as the mages.

Cullen was referring only to the Templars of Kirkwall since, in the very same letter, he says that everywhere else he served, Templars were welcomed with open arms.

Of course, this war will sully their name somewhat; marauding armies are never seen with good eyes; but nowhere nearly as much as the mages. After all, in "Asunder", the townspeople only spoke against Evangeline when she stopped them from lynching the mages that accompanied her; all of their hate was directed towards them.

[The Elder King]

I'd say both groups are going to be resented/hated in DAI (and the RT will definitely hurt the templars' reputation), but I think that without knowing anything about the story and how the war is going, we can't say who will be resented more, or if they'll be resented equally.

[TheKomandorShepard]

hhh89 wrote...

@Lotion Soronnar: which latest info suggests that mages are under siege and the war isn't going well? In DAI's interviews, they never specified on how the war is going. They stated that there's war, the conflict is grey, and that an Inquisitor must find a balance between mages and templars. I'm not saying that it wouldn't happen in DAI, but so far we know almost anything about the mage-templar war.

sorry i just had to mock that i know thats not your words so it wasn't toward you and rly hope that i won't be forced choose 2 sides or take third option as peacemaker i rly hope for more solutions that don't require taking side and i hope for my ultimate resolution...

 

[Dave of Canada]

Jaison1986 wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

That's the way you see it. I see it differently and I have access to all the information the lore can provide.
Not only do the people of Thedas don't have this commodity, they already hate the mages to begin with. Seeing them using their magic to impose their will upon the world will not endear them to anyone, even if no mage attacked civilians, summoned demons or became an Abomination which is impossible, anyway.

The templars are screwed in this aspect as well. Cullen already said the order was getting pretty unpopular, saying they are likely to have people help them out as much as to slam their doors in their faces. And now combine this with the red templars tainting their name even further, the people of Thedas will hate them as much as the mages.

He's talking about Kirkwall and this was before a mage decided to blow up the Chantry in the name of mages everywhere.

[Jaison1986]

MisterJB wrote...

Jaison1986 wrote...
The templars are screwed in this aspect as well. Cullen already said the order was getting pretty unpopular, saying they are likely to have people help them out as much as to slam their doors in their faces. And now combine this with the red templars tainting their name even further, the people of Thedas will hate them as much as the mages.

Cullen was referring only to the Templars of Kirkwall since, in the very same letter, he says that everywhere else he served, Templars were welcomed with open arms.

Of course, this war will sully their name somewhat; marauding armies are never seen with good eyes; but nowhere nearly as much as the mages. After all, in "Asunder", the townspeople only spoke against Evangeline when she stopped them from lynching the mages that accompanied her; all of their hate was directed towards them.

You need to keep in mind that those town folk had an apostate mage turn into an abomination that killed many people. They have reason to resent mages. Can we say the people of Honnleath would say the same thing? Considering it was an mage that saved their lifes?

I simply don't know why must the Templars come into the balance. In act 3, we discover that Alistair is helping out any apostate mage that he finds in Ferelden, but he can't do much to help those already in the circle. Hawke can then suggest him to simply kick the templars out of Ferelden and have his own men watching over the mages instead. And if you ask, were Alistair to actually do that, he would make an much better job at watching over the mages instead of the templars.

[Veruin]

Everyone thinks they can do a better job than someone else. Until that person actually has to do said job. Some times it holds true, but most of the time, it doesn't.

[AresKeith]

Adanu wrote...

Until the nations of thedas learn the lesson that modern day mages are NOT responsible for something a few psychopaths in ancient times did, there is no choice but war.

Anyone who thought the circle as it was was anything but a band aid on a much larger problem is naive, only thinking short term, and shows a total lack of compassion.

Pro templars make me sick on these boards with their blindness.blindness.

The irony and hypocrisy is as clear as day in this post

[thetinyevil]

MisterJB wrote...

As I said before, the Circle is not about punishment, it's about prevention. It was not established so that mages could "know what it feels like", it was created to protect normal people from magical abuse and non-magical society from magical domination as well as to prevent war between normal people and mages.
And those dangers are as real today as they were nine centuries ago; they haven't diminished even if normals and mages were "even" which they aren't.

Everyone wants a "perfect balance between freedom and control" but it's impossible to find it. Nine centuries ago, the Circle was seen as the best compromise; now the mages are not happy and are rebelling. Whatever system is put in place; regardless if it's better or worse; will only last until one of the groups feels they aren't being given what they are entitled to and then there'll be war again. That is inevitable.

That is not to say we shouldn't attempt to improve the conditions within the Circle, of course.

Yeah the mages are so thankless, how dare they wish to be treated like people. Silly mages you aren't people, your tools.

[Veruin]

thetinyevil wrote...
Yeah the mages are so thankless, how dare they wish to be treated like people. Silly mages you aren't people, your tools.

Did you get angry/upset again?  Because you're assumnig stupid sh-- as usual.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

I wouldn't say mages are viewed as tools. Prisoners, sure, but not tools. No, if you want the groups treated like they aren't even people look at the City Elves, Casteless Dwarves, and Qunari mages.

[MisterJB]

thetinyevil wrote...
Yeah the mages are so thankless, how dare they wish to be treated like people. Silly mages you aren't people, your tools.

This is not even remotely related to anything I wrote. Are you sure you're arguing with us and not just with constructs of your mind?

[thetinyevil]

MisterJB wrote...

thetinyevil wrote...
Yeah the mages are so thankless, how dare they wish to be treated like people. Silly mages you aren't people, your tools.

This is not even remotely related to anything I wrote. Are you sure you're arguing with us and not just with constructs of your mind?

I just see the circle differently, I see it as punishment. 

[TheKomandorShepard]

thetinyevil wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

thetinyevil wrote...
Yeah the mages are so thankless, how dare they wish to be treated like people. Silly mages you aren't people, your tools.

This is not even remotely related to anything I wrote. Are you sure you're arguing with us and not just with constructs of your mind?

I just see the circle differently, I see it as punishment. 

This is how you see circle is not important because thats not reason behind circle it was created to protect peoples from mages and peoples lock animals in cages as form of punishment or just as security measures? Well i won't say that circles are good security measures because as far it sucked but that was idea behind circle.

[TK514]

thetinyevil wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

thetinyevil wrote...
Yeah the mages are so thankless, how dare they wish to be treated like people. Silly mages you aren't people, your tools.

This is not even remotely related to anything I wrote. Are you sure you're arguing with us and not just with constructs of your mind?

I just see the circle differently, I see it as punishment. 

If it were punishment, their standard of living would be much worse, and they wouldn't be allowed to use their powers at all, much less learn how to use them more effectively.  There would be no vast libraries, no classes, no private rooms, no expensive enchanted robes, no expensive enchanted staves.  No alchemical apparatus, no hierarchy of representation.  You know, all those things we directly experienced in the Ferelden Circle.

You certainly wouldn't provide people you were punishing with the rarest, most expensive substance in the world, which makes them stronger, free of charge.

Modifié par TK514, 06 février 2014 - 04:41 .

[Lulupab]

TK514 wrote...

thetinyevil wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

thetinyevil wrote...
Yeah the mages are so thankless, how dare they wish to be treated like people. Silly mages you aren't people, your tools.

This is not even remotely related to anything I wrote. Are you sure you're arguing with us and not just with constructs of your mind?

I just see the circle differently, I see it as punishment. 

If it were punishment, their standard of living would be much worse, and they wouldn't be allowed to use their powers at all, much less learn how to use them more effectively.  There would be no vast libraries, no classes, no private rooms, no expensive enchanted robes, no expensive enchanted staves.  No alchemical apparatus, no hierarchy of representation.  You know, all those things we directly experienced in the Ferelden Circle.

I agree but its not heaven lol. You HAVE to face a demon, succeed or become tranquil. It reminds of the Qun. Mages who don't want to be harrowed shouldn't be made tranquil, instead they should be watched closely and never be promoted to higher ranks or any rank for that matter in their hierarchy. They should be able to live a quiet life in circle, just living as a person.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Rassler wrote...



I agree but its not heaven lol. You HAVE to face a demon, succeed or become tranquil. It reminds of the Qun. Mages who don't want to be harrowed shouldn't be made tranquil, instead they should be watched closely and never be promoted to higher ranks or any rank for that matter in their hierarchy. They should be able to live a quiet life in circle, just living as a person.

yeah i have better idea just allow demons to posses mages it will have smiliar results bam one weak mage turns into abomnation it quickly turn others into abomnations in tower then we have replay from broken circle...

Modifié par TheKomandorShepard, 06 février 2014 - 04:45 .

[Veruin]

Rassler wrote...

I agree but its not heaven lol. You HAVE to face a demon, succeed or become tranquil. It reminds of the Qun. Mages who don't want to be harrowed shouldn't be made tranquil, instead they should be watched closely and never be promoted to higher ranks or any rank for that matter in their hierarchy. They should be able to live a quiet life in circle, just living as a person.

No one claims the current system is the epitome of perfection.  We all say there are ways it could be improved.  However, the gross exaggeration of mages being treated like sh-t is getting old, when we are shown otherwise it is not the case.

[thetinyevil]

TK514 wrote...

thetinyevil wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

thetinyevil wrote...
Yeah the mages are so thankless, how dare they wish to be treated like people. Silly mages you aren't people, your tools.

This is not even remotely related to anything I wrote. Are you sure you're arguing with us and not just with constructs of your mind?

I just see the circle differently, I see it as punishment. 

If it were punishment, their standard of living would be much worse, and they wouldn't be allowed to use their powers at all, much less learn how to use them more effectively.  There would be no vast libraries, no classes, no private rooms, no expensive enchanted robes, no expensive enchanted staves.  No alchemical apparatus, no hierarchy of representation.  You know, all those things we directly experienced in the Ferelden Circle.

The stardard of living isn't a rosie and wonderful as you seem to think. If they didn't use their powers then what good would they be? Mages are tools and weapons for the Chantry use as they see fit. Without the vast libraries, that likely has about much fiction as a dictionary, is for learning, so they wouldn't be useful. There are no private rooms, even the Enchanters had to share rooms, I think the only mage who gets a private room is the First Enchanter. They make the robes so not so expensive and they only were enchanted robs outside when they are put on the front lines of a war, they also make their own staves there and they aren't expensive. Their staffs aren't made of rare woods or metals. Their clothes aren't silk, their cotten or wool and not the good cottor or wool either. 

The alchemical apparatus, that's to make stuff to sell not use on the mages. Why waste goods on tools and weapons that are easy to replace. Their "hierarchy" is a joke. That is just to make the mages think they actually have a voice to keep them plaicated and in their place. Their representation has as much say in what happens to the cirlce as a five year old mageling fresh to the circle.

[TK514]

Rassler wrote...

I agree but its not heaven lol. You HAVE to face a demon, succeed or become tranquil. It reminds of the Qun. Mages who don't want to be harrowed shouldn't be made tranquil, instead they should be watched closely and never be promoted to higher ranks or any rank for that matter in their hierarchy. They should be able to live a quiet life in circle, just living as a person.

It doesn't have to be heaven.  Though your mention of the Qun brings up a good example.  If the Chantry treated Mages as the Qunari treat Sarebaas, without the philosophical underpinnings of the Qun, then you'd have a case for calling it punishment.  But they don't.