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[thetinyevil]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

thetinyevil wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

All this talk about tranquility and such, do the tranquil have a right of choice in whether they remain tranquil? Like, we may see it as curing them, but what do they see it as? Would they view it like a recovered addict being made to take drugs again? The highs of euphoria and satisfaction that drugs illicit within the brain could be seen as the same type of altered state tranquil become when they are cured.

So would it be morally acceptable if a tranquil didn't want to be cured, but were cured regardless?

I don't think the tranquil would have much of an opinion in the matter.

They seem to have an opinion whenever someone criticizes that they feel sorry for them or don't think of them as people. In fact in DAO you could get into a decent philisophical debate with owain over being a tranquil and whether that's good or not.

I mean they would have no motivation to want to be cured. Why would they? As they are they are useful and are as the name implies "tranquil' with their lot. 

[Cainhurst Crow]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Frankly, Fiona never attempted to commit genocide against an entire population of people for something they didn't do. Fiona's behavior with Maric doesn't put her in the same level as the Knight-Commander who had a death squad killing people in broad daylight, like the civilian who fed her starved and tortured mage cousin. Fiona overcomes her issues. Meredith, on the other hand, ordered hundreds of men, women, and children killed to appease a hypothetical mob who would want mages killed simply for being mages. 

I think you mean simply for blowing up the most important building in the whole city and everyone in it. As far as the common man knows, a mage blew up the chantry because they wanted all mages to be free. Any people, mages, nonmages, dwarves, elves, humans, even qunari, would be wanting blood if such a travesty was done to them, and the first peoeple they'd look for revenge would be those who this act was theoretically for. You can argue her method for doing this is wrong, but you can't say she did it for ****s and giggles.

So really meredith might be entirely correct in fearing the reaction that the common folk will feel after the chantry blew up. A lot of people make fun of sebastion but his reaction is probably the most realisitc and normal out of everyone there. 

Except all those people aren't responsible for Anders' actions, so they are all being condemned to death for being mages. Meredith says, time and again, that they need to die because the people "will demand blood".

Does that even matter? Must I list historical event after historical event where people were pursecuted and mobs raised cities over an event where only a handfull of people were involved? How hard of a concept is it to grasp that the situation might be out of everyones control, whether there was a annulment right ordered or not? Why is there doubt over a phenomena  that has occured even at the start of this century?

[LobselVith8]

BlueMagitek wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

So Fiona is a terrible leader because she was repeatedly raped and abused until she killed her attacker, she was then confined to a Circle Tower that she wanted to be freed from, she was still dealing with her years of abuse and torture when she met Maric, and she overcome her issues on her own?

Let's just say I strongly disagree. 

You are aware that those don't display leadership abilities, right? 

I'm fully aware they don't make someone a bad leader.

[Heimdall]

Banxey2 wrote...

Does anyone know why Meredith wanted the red lyrium in the first place? I can't remember if it was mentioned. It would have been expensive and she must have known there was a potential danger to having it around.

Unclear, though I imagine she knew it was powerful and perhaps reasoned that, as Templars are accustomed to Lyrium based abilities, she would be able to control it.

[The Baconer]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Luckily the Tempars are taught a whole deal of discipline, so only the weaker Templars will ever succumb to the withdrawal.

Where has this been mentioned?

[Lulupab]

eluvianix wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

All this talk about tranquility and such, do the tranquil have a right of choice in whether they remain tranquil? Like, we may see it as curing them, but what do they see it as? Would they view it like a recovered addict being made to take drugs again? The highs of euphoria and satisfaction that drugs illicit within the brain could be seen as the same type of altered state tranquil become when they are cured.

So would it be morally acceptable if a tranquil didn't want to be cured, but were cured regardless?

I'm just going off of what I saw from both Karl and Pharamond, I would cure them in a heartbeat. However, if they had legitimate reason for being made Tranquil, like hurting others with magic, or using blood magic for nefarious purposes, than I would keep them Tranquil.

In beginning of the game Anders says Karl is the main reason he has come to Kirkwall. Karl has sent a letter to Anders explaining how terrible the situation is for mages and him in Kirkwall. Its interesting that making Karl a tranquil can be considered the starter of most messes in Kirkwall. Its a "what if" situation but without Anders Hawke could possibily never find the desired entrance into deep roads to find that idol also no Anders no chantry destruction.

I'd cure Karl in a heatbeat. I really felt sad about his fate.

[thetinyevil]

LobselVith8 wrote...

thetinyevil wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

I was wondering if you were being brave enough on your previous post to own up to your beliefs and stick by them regardless of what I think or whether you're just not intelligent enough to realize you have been proving me more and more right with each response.

Clearly, it's option B.

I don't think everyone one hates mages and are horrible for it. I think only some people hate mages and are horrible for it. Not everyone there is a difference there. 

I take it a Knight-Commander who illegally seizes political power and who commits genocide against hundreds of innocent people falls in that category?

When an entire population of mages can legally be killed simply for being mages, I think someone like Fiona would take a stand against another millennia of mages living in servitude to the Chantry.

Yes like her. She hates mages. No matter what anyone says this will always be my opinion of her.

[Cainhurst Crow]

thetinyevil wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

thetinyevil wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

All this talk about tranquility and such, do the tranquil have a right of choice in whether they remain tranquil? Like, we may see it as curing them, but what do they see it as? Would they view it like a recovered addict being made to take drugs again? The highs of euphoria and satisfaction that drugs illicit within the brain could be seen as the same type of altered state tranquil become when they are cured.

So would it be morally acceptable if a tranquil didn't want to be cured, but were cured regardless?

I don't think the tranquil would have much of an opinion in the matter.

They seem to have an opinion whenever someone criticizes that they feel sorry for them or don't think of them as people. In fact in DAO you could get into a decent philisophical debate with owain over being a tranquil and whether that's good or not.

I mean they would have no motivation to want to be cured. Why would they? As they are they are useful and are as the name implies "tranquil' with their lot. 

That I could probably see, though I suspect the issue might get more complicated if you told a tranquil you were going to cure them and the reason for it being so they won't be tranquil anymore.

[BlueMagitek]

LobselVith8 wrote...


I'm fully aware they don't make someone a bad leader.

They don't make someone a good leader.  Her displayed prejudice against nobility, however, is a mark of a poor leader if she can't distance herself from it or abstain when her weak spot is involved.  Especially when you need goodwill and the nobility are among the few who can provide it.

[The Hierophant]

Banxey2 wrote...

Does anyone know why Meredith wanted the red lyrium in the first place? I can't remember if it was mentioned. It would have been expensive and she must have known there was a potential danger to having it around.

Probably because she never heard of red lyrium before, combined with it potentially producing some alluring sound, as Bartrand claimed he could hear it sing.

[The Baconer]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

Does that even matter? Must I list historical event after historical event where people were pursecuted and mobs raised cities over an event where only a handfull of people were involved? How hard of a concept is it to grasp that the situation might be out of everyones control, whether there was a annulment right ordered or not? Why is there doubt over a phenomena  that has occured even at the start of this century?

Isn't the Gallows on an island, and not actually in the city proper?

[Cainhurst Crow]

Fiona seems like the type of person who would start off leading the revolution in more pacifistic and internal ways, building up infrastructure and foundations and trying to earn goodwill with other nations, as well as make alliances and focus on educating the young and promoting peaceful coexsistence, and eventually will be betrayed and killed by her more militant second in command Adrian, who will instal a cult of personality into power and begin more stalinistic policies and secret police, sending out covert strikes and retrofitting the mages from a collective of knowledge to a military fighting force to enstall her as New Archon of Eastern Tevinter.

[thetinyevil]

Veruin wrote...

The Hierophant wrote...
Is this pre lyrium idol Meredith?

Of course not.  She's human and a templar.  The purest form of evil.  Doesn't even need a lyrium idol.

Good you are starting to understand.
If you don't know that is sarcasim.
Not all humans are evil there are a lot of good humans in both games and all the books. There are even a few good templars. Karen, Thrask, and Evanglina.

[Cainhurst Crow]

The Baconer wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

Does that even matter? Must I list historical event after historical event where people were pursecuted and mobs raised cities over an event where only a handfull of people were involved? How hard of a concept is it to grasp that the situation might be out of everyones control, whether there was a annulment right ordered or not? Why is there doubt over a phenomena  that has occured even at the start of this century?

Isn't the Gallows on an island, and not actually in the city proper?

Seeing as how we never needed a boat to get here, I doubt it. And what does that have to do with anything? If we can get there at any time, even during a rite of annulement, what makes you think others couldn't get there as well? As strong as the templars and mages are, if the whole city turns on them, they'll both be screwed and overrrun.

Then meredith will use the idol, and orsino will use his blood magic, and the entire city of kirkwall will be completely destroyed as thousands of citizen rioters are massacured by the two.

Modifié par Darth Brotarian, 07 février 2014 - 01:06 .

[MisterJB]

LobselVith8 wrote...
Fiona overcame her issues, and she represented fellow mages when she returned to the Circle - unlike Meredith, who ruled over mages who were at her mercy.

Fiona does what she feels is best to protect her people; so does Meredith. Fiona wants to start a war, Meredith imposes strict restrictions.
Also, it is quite obvious Fiona stills does not trust humans in positions of authority. Her unwillingness to cooperate with anyone who is not a mage proves it.

Fiona wanted to free her people from an oppressive institution condemned by some as slavery =/= committing genocide against hundreds who are innocent of Anders' actions.

You're trying to use pretty words to hide the ugly which is that more people will die in this war Fiona was very much willing to start than Meredith ever killed. And Fiona is not under the influence of Red Lyrium.

You're applying a double standard.

Modifié par MisterJB, 07 février 2014 - 01:06 .

[Veruin]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

Seeing as how we never needed a boat to get here, I doubt it.

Isn't there a boat scene during the final straw though?  One with Hawke and friends sailing to the Gallows?

[Cainhurst Crow]

Veruin wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

Seeing as how we never needed a boat to get here, I doubt it.

Isn't there a boat scene during the final straw though?  One with Hawke and friends sailing to the Gallows?

I don't remember any such scene.

[Hellion Rex]

Veruin wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

Seeing as how we never needed a boat to get here, I doubt it.

Isn't there a boat scene during the final straw though?  One with Hawke and friends sailing to the Gallows?

Yeah, there is.

[thetinyevil]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

thetinyevil wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

thetinyevil wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

All this talk about tranquility and such, do the tranquil have a right of choice in whether they remain tranquil? Like, we may see it as curing them, but what do they see it as? Would they view it like a recovered addict being made to take drugs again? The highs of euphoria and satisfaction that drugs illicit within the brain could be seen as the same type of altered state tranquil become when they are cured.

So would it be morally acceptable if a tranquil didn't want to be cured, but were cured regardless?

I don't think the tranquil would have much of an opinion in the matter.

They seem to have an opinion whenever someone criticizes that they feel sorry for them or don't think of them as people. In fact in DAO you could get into a decent philisophical debate with owain over being a tranquil and whether that's good or not.

I mean they would have no motivation to want to be cured. Why would they? As they are they are useful and are as the name implies "tranquil' with their lot. 

That I could probably see, though I suspect the issue might get more complicated if you told a tranquil you were going to cure them and the reason for it being so they won't be tranquil anymore.

That would probably confuse them. 

[Veruin]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

I don't remember any such scene.

This one.

[LobselVith8]

Veruin wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

Seeing as how we never needed a boat to get here, I doubt it.

Isn't there a boat scene during the final straw though?  One with Hawke and friends sailing to the Gallows?

Yes, Hawke and the crew took a boat; you need one to get to the Gallows since it's surrounded by water.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 07 février 2014 - 01:13 .

[Heimdall]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

Seeing as how we never needed a boat to get here, I doubt it. 

Actually, I think its just built on the opposite side of the harbor from the rest of the city, isolated, but not an island.  Recall that Hawke walks up the stairs in the beginning of the game after agreeing to work off the price of entry.

Modifié par Lord Aesir, 07 février 2014 - 01:14 .

[Banxey]

Lord Aesir wrote...

Banxey2 wrote...

Does anyone know why Meredith wanted the red lyrium in the first place? I can't remember if it was mentioned. It would have been expensive and she must have known there was a potential danger to having it around.

Unclear, though I imagine she knew it was powerful and perhaps reasoned that, as Templars are accustomed to Lyrium based abilities, she would be able to control it.

 Yeah, that seems possible. Or possibly she could have felt it was too dangerous to be outside the control of the Chantry. 

The Hierophant wrote...
Probably because she never heard of red lyrium before, combined with it potentially producing some alluring sound, as Bartrand claimed he could hear it sing.

That also makes sense. But it seems like there should be a story behind it, how she heard about it, etc. But I guess we'll never know.

[thetinyevil]

BlueMagitek wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...


I'm fully aware they don't make someone a bad leader.

They don't make someone a good leader.  Her displayed prejudice against nobility, however, is a mark of a poor leader if she can't distance herself from it or abstain when her weak spot is involved.  Especially when you need goodwill and the nobility are among the few who can provide it.

We really don't get to see if she still carried her distrust of nobility in Asunder. There was more the twenty years between the Calling and Asunder. We don't know how much she has changed. Being Grand Enchanter probably meant she had to deal with nobility and since her life, as well as anyone but another noble, would have been forfite if she killed random nobles then I say she probably dealing with her prejudice.

[Cainhurst Crow]

I stand corrected. The description doesn't make it clear that it's an island, it just describes it as a harbor just off of the docks, making it sound like it's connected to the land but just heavily fortified.