1033 réponses à ce sujet

[Hellion Rex]

Veruin wrote...

SgtSteel91 wrote...

My first thought was "make golems." Not sure if that's better than dealing with mages or not.

Then the morally superiority arguments start up again, despite the idea of it probably being the dwarves best chance for salvation.

BlueMagitek wrote...

Oh, I forgot, there's also a horde of Flesh Golems infesting the Deep Roads now.

Thanks, Tevinter. :/

Tevinter made those/drew up the plans?  I thought they were Dwarven experiments gone wrong.

The Dwarves created the meat suits, but the Tevinter mage Nereda is the one who animated the Harvesters with by trapping a spirit inside.

[Inprea]

Veruin wrote...

Tevinter made those/drew up the plans?  I thought they were Dwarven experiments gone wrong.

A supposedly skilled Tevinter blood mage worked with them to make the flesh golem. For the most part it was the dwarfs working the lyrium, as unless it's changed if a mage touches raw lyrium they're dead. The mage handled the summoning and binding of the fade spirit.

Personally I'm a little tired of the theme that trying to develop a new form of magic/cutting edge science always ends badly. They talk about how smart dwarfs and some mages are yet their first test run is a full sized model with combat abilities and no reliable control system? They did manage to find methods on improving upon already existing golem, an ability that heals any allies near the golem is quite notable, it's a shame they didn't back up their researcher off site.

[Dave of Canada]

Veruin wrote...

Tevinter made those/drew up the plans?  I thought they were Dwarven experiments gone wrong.

Tevinter mages had come along for the fade portion.

[Martyr1777]

Rassler wrote...

Martyr1777 wrote...

She changed her opinion of him after being forced through a very extreme experience with him and Maric earning all their respect in a fight.

Lets look at it this way, human noble families have mages to. How is Fiona going to treat them? Mages that have gathered with the rest of them and haven't had a chance to earn that respect in a difficult situation? What about interacting with the nobility on behalf of the mages. They can't exist in their own little universe, they will need to interact with other groups, either seeking aid for the war or simply not pissing off nobles as they travel through their lands.

If it can be shown that Fiona is no longer as judgemental without seeing the whole picture then I would say she has passion that many other pages lack. But everything I've seen from her is anger, not passion. Aidan is like the exact same, they don't think or consider things, just do what they think they should.

Personally, I would never follow a leader like that, why do you think they wanted/needed Rhys (?) to join their faction, they need someone with a more controled moderate personality because noone trusts the hot heads. If Fiona wasn't still the same then she would easily gain all the followeres they could possibly want on their side.

You mean the mages who are automatically a disgrace to their families and cause great scandal among nobles? More likely these mages from noble families will symphatize with Fiona.

Basically all you said was your personal opinion of Fiona acompanied by 'If' (s). Because we don't enter Fiona's thoughts to notice whether she strategize or think before hand so you can't claim she just acts without thinking.

Fiona is one of the few elves that does not hate humans and treat them quite equally, her problems had been with nobility not humans. Her ideas about nobles are either changed completely or she sees them less of threat and would work with them if necessary. So far she has shown that she is willing to go as far as morality allows to achieve her goal making her one of the good ones. I'm quite sure in fact that if working with nobles would help mage's cause she would agree to it in a heartbeat.

I would argue you make more assuptions then I. As for it being my opinion thats all this entire thread is. Short of DG coming and telling us all exactly how Fiona works its all opinion based on our interpretation of her apperances.

Let compare two very passionate characters though, Fiona and Evangeline. Fiona is all fire and brimstone, seemingly making snap decisions and being extremely hard to show her another path. Maric was nothing but friendly and completely un-noble like but she wouldn't even consider him in any way different then her thoughts untill the **** hit the fan and he had their back.

Evangeline, very passionate, very much dislikes mages in the beginning. Doesn't have the same level of reason to hate like Fiona (but if the level of abuse is considered then its all the bigger hurdle against Fiona, worse the abuse hard to overcome and be sensible). But even with her dislike Evageline was always very outwardly calm and calculating, even when she fell for Rhys and Lambert pretty much had her waiting in her own death row.

Yes this is my opinion, but as someone thats seen good and bad leadership and has been in the position to go into harms way under someone elses ledership... I would follow Eva any day of the week and avoid Fiona like the plague. And I'm very much pro mage.

[Martyr1777]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Martyr1777 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

So we're vilifying Fiona because she distrusted human nobles, after being repeatedly raped, abused, tortured, and dehumanized for years by one?

You said it yourself... ONE.

I hate an number of people, I don't go around assuming people with even a remotely similar background should be hated because of that.

Yes its very easy to see how a person could feel that way... The point isn't that she does feel that way and she should or shouldn't be like that.

But that is not the case at all. The real point is a person with those kind of feelings is a terrible leader because they let their feelings control them not their heads. 

So Fiona is a terrible leader because she was repeatedly raped and abused until she killed her attacker, she was then confined to a Circle Tower that she wanted to be freed from, she was still dealing with her years of abuse and torture when she met Maric, and she overcome her issues on her own?

Let's just say I strongly disagree.

Why her emotions drive her is irrelevant. The fact that her emotions drive her is why she would be a terrible leader though. The extreme abuse is just another mark against her because it is so much harder to over come.

And in my opinion based on Asunder I dont think she has overcome anything, hate still drive her passion.

Another comparison, Loghain who we know to be an amazing general and good leader from Stolen Throne, not so much DAO, also holds alot of hate in the book, even for Maric. But he puts aside because he knows he can't let his emotions drive him. Not Fiona, I've dont remember her pushing the anger down and thinking. She may have stopped hating Maric but she was still a hothead.

Modifié par Martyr1777, 07 février 2014 - 03:45 .

[ElvaliaRavenHart]

Rawgrim wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...


That's counters you're point. Being that fear and hate is the problem and the current templars, who are working of of that, ae just making things worse.

Ha humans didn't menage to achieve that simple it always will be in case even in our times it is common and yet
differences are not so big and in mages case they are because they are dangerous and always will... 
So good luck with that as i said

Except mages don't turn into abomination at a drop of a hat and a  spoiled noble can decimate a country with no magic at all.

Mages don`t turn into abomination at a drop of a hat? Didn`t play DA2 did you?

I did, and being stressed and ver a veil tear ups the chances and Kirkwall is a big veil tear with lots of super stressed mages because of the horrible job the templars were doing.

So it is ok to turn to blood magic and kill hundreds of people, if you are stressed out. Gottcha. Was Uldren, in DA:O, stressed out too?

Well according to Ines The Botanist in the Wending Woods he was, because Wynne nagged him as well. 

[Banxey]

Martyr1777 wrote...
Why her emotions drive her is irrelevant. The fact that her emotions drive her is why she would be a terrible leader though. The extreme abuse is just another mark against her because it is so much harder to over come.

And in my opinion based on Asunder I dont think she has overcome anything, hate still drive her passion.

Another comparison, Loghain who we know to be an amazing general and good leader from Stolen Throne, not so much DAO, also holds alot of hate in the book, even for Maric. But he puts aside because he knows he can't let his emotions drive him. Not Fiona, I've dont remember her pushing the anger down and thinking. She may have stopped hating Maric but she was still a hothead.

To be fair, later in life he does kind of let his hatred of Orlesians blind him to the real threat for most of the game. Also, Lambert lets his past in Tevinter colour his views on mages. Fiona is hardly the only character with those problems. And she obviously had enough intelligence in her youth to gather the support needed to become Grand Enchanter.

But as I said about 30 pages back, I don't think she will make a good leader. She is strong and will likely be ruthless, but that will only get her so far.

[EmperorSahlertz]

The Baconer wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
Luckily the Tempars are taught a whole deal of discipline, so only the weaker Templars will ever succumb to the withdrawal.

Where has this been mentioned?

Which part? The Templar discipline part, or the only weak-willed Templars will suffer withdrawal part?

On the first point: We know Templars are taught a whole deal of mental discipline and just general discipline. This will help a great deal when dealing wtih something like withdrawal.

On the second point: I say that based on the fact that all Templars are taught a great deal of discipline, and that only weak (or bad) Templars like Samson, will succumb to their addiction.

[dragonflight288]

......

I don't really like Fiona. I think she's a hothead and holding a grudge. Her emotions are completely understandable and make her a sympathetic character but I simply cannot see her as being the leader mages need.

I mean, I would like to hear her plan on how to house, feed and clothe mages after declaring Independence from the Chantry. And with the Nevarran Accord declared void by Lambert and the templars, the mages not only have to solve these problems but also deal with a bunch of zealots trying to kill them for the high crime of existing.

[TEWR]

BlueMagitek wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...


I'm fully aware they don't make someone a bad leader.

They don't make someone a good leader.  Her displayed prejudice against nobility, however, is a mark of a poor leader if she can't distance herself from it or abstain when her weak spot is involved.  Especially when you need goodwill and the nobility are among the few who can provide it.

To be fair, that's not really an issue any more. She doesn't have a problem with nobility after her time with Maric. Course, we don't see much of her in Asunder, so I could just be filling in a gap.

[TEWR]

dragonflight288 wrote...

......

I don't really like Fiona. I think she's a hothead and holding a grudge. Her emotions are completely understandable and make her a sympathetic character but I simply cannot see her as being the leader mages need.

I mean, I would like to hear her plan on how to house, feed and clothe mages after declaring Independence from the Chantry. And with the Nevarran Accord declared void by Lambert and the templars, the mages not only have to solve these problems but also deal with a bunch of zealots trying to kill them for the high crime of existing.

I imagine she'd try to turn Adamant into a haven, perhaps even a trading hub. She might use the Formari/Tranquil/Lucrosians to garner money, along with perhaps having the mages work with the people to achieve goodwill and their support.

And of course perhaps guerrilla warfare campaigns against the Templars and striking a deal with the Dwarves. Retaking some of the Circles would be key though, as they can house a number of people.

[TEWR]

MisterJB wrote...

I wonder if all those forumites who claim Meredith is unfit to lead because of her negative past experiences with mages would say the same about Fiona.

Yes... and no. Depends on how she interacts with people, really. I'd say that based on what I DO know at this point in time, she is unfit to lead the Mages.... but if we see her in-game and she seems to not be negatively affected by her past like Meredith was then who knows?

But then, IIRC in the past I've said she is fit to lead because she overcame her issues based on what I saw, so meh. Maybe I'm just very wishy-washy, flippy-floppy.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 07 février 2014 - 04:43 .

[Martyr1777]

Banxey2 wrote...

Martyr1777 wrote...
Why her emotions drive her is irrelevant. The fact that her emotions drive her is why she would be a terrible leader though. The extreme abuse is just another mark against her because it is so much harder to over come.

And in my opinion based on Asunder I dont think she has overcome anything, hate still drive her passion.

Another comparison, Loghain who we know to be an amazing general and good leader from Stolen Throne, not so much DAO, also holds alot of hate in the book, even for Maric. But he puts aside because he knows he can't let his emotions drive him. Not Fiona, I've dont remember her pushing the anger down and thinking. She may have stopped hating Maric but she was still a hothead.

To be fair, later in life he does kind of let his hatred of Orlesians blind him to the real threat for most of the game. Also, Lambert lets his past in Tevinter colour his views on mages. Fiona is hardly the only character with those problems. And she obviously had enough intelligence in her youth to gather the support needed to become Grand Enchanter.

But as I said about 30 pages back, I don't think she will make a good leader. She is strong and will likely be ruthless, but that will only get her so far.

Well your just adding to my point. Loghain becomes an idiot when he lets his emotions control him (I just think he was a more developed character in the book and really not the same between them). Lambert was so ruthless he fanded the flames of war more then anyone else.

When your emotions control you you will never be a good leader, even the best become poor if their emotions drive them. In Asunder I didn't see anything that made me thing Fiona was any less emotionally driven, just more experienced.

Modifié par Martyr1777, 07 février 2014 - 04:46 .

[TEWR]

Another comparison, Loghain who we know to be an amazing general and good leader from Stolen Throne, not so much DAO, also holds alot of hate in the book, even for Maric.

He made a sound tactical retreat from a hopeless battle doomed for a multitude of reasons and easily crushed a rebellion a bunch of short-sighted lords instigated.

To be fair, later in life he does kind of let his hatred of Orlesians blind him to the real threat for most of the game.

After Ostagar he tells the lords they must focus on the Darkspawn and be united, which they then shoot down cuz of Teagan. And his fear of Orlais is justified, given that the number he was given of Orlesian troops coming is different by a substantial amount compared to Riordan's numbers (Riordan's were larger, anachronism for military unit notwithstanding as it IS lore). Plus, Orlais' history of "helping" weakened nations during times of crisis and then conquering them.

I won't get into the whole emotions thing, as I just want to tackle these two things.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 07 février 2014 - 04:48 .

[Martyr1777]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Another comparison, Loghain who we know to be an amazing general and good leader from Stolen Throne, not so much DAO, also holds alot of hate in the book, even for Maric.

He made a sound tactical retreat from a hopeless battle doomed for a multitude of reasons and easily crushed a rebellion a bunch of short-sighted lords instigated.

To be fair, later in life he does kind of let his hatred of Orlesians blind him to the real threat for most of the game.

After Ostagar he tells the lords they must focus on the Darkspawn and be united. And his fear of Orlais is justified, given that the number he was given of Orlesian troops coming is different by a substantial amount compared to Riordan's numbers (Riordan's were larger, anachronism for military unit notwithstanding as it IS lore).

I just don't think DAO loghain and Stolen Thron Loghain are the same person...too many diference in how they behave to me.

But regardless, Loghain had lofty PLANS. They didn't seem to be going that well to begin with. Don't forget Loghains plans were just talk because it was the Warden that solved everything.

[Hellion Rex]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
On the second point: I say that based on the fact that all Templars are taught a great deal of discipline, and that only weak (or bad) Templars like Samson, will succumb to their addiction.

Unless you take their lyrium away. After a while, it won't matter how much mental discipline they could have gained.

[The Baconer]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Which part? The Templar discipline part, or the only weak-willed Templars will suffer withdrawal part?

The latter.

On the second point: I say that based on the fact that all Templars are taught a great deal of discipline, and that only weak (or bad) Templars like Samson, will succumb to their addiction.

That... seems pretty headcanon-y. You can't just "delete" the effects of withdrawal through willpower.

[Banxey]

Martyr1777 wrote...

Well your just adding to my point. Loghain becomes an idiot when he lets his emotions control him (I just think he was a more developed character in the book and really not the same between them). Lambert was so ruthless he fanded the flames of war more then anyone else.

When your emotions control you you will never be a good leader, even the best become poor if their emotions drive them. In Asunder I didn't see anything that made me thing Fiona was any less emotionally driven, just more experienced.

Sorry, I misread the part where you mentioned DAO. I agree with you on your points. 

[EmperorSahlertz]

eluvianix wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
On the second point: I say that based on the fact that all Templars are taught a great deal of discipline, and that only weak (or bad) Templars like Samson, will succumb to their addiction.

Unless you take their lyrium away. After a while, it won't matter how much mental discipline they could have gained.

The Baconer wrote...

On the second point: I say that based on the fact that all Templars are taught a great deal of discipline, and that only weak (or bad) Templars like Samson, will succumb to their addiction.

That... seems pretty headcanon-y. You can't just "delete" the effects of withdrawal through willpower.

That is exactly how you beat an addiction. If they have built up a physical addiction they will suffer withdrawal, but with enough discipline and willpower they will get through it. And both are something Templars got in spades.
What brings about the mental deterioration of the Templars are the prolonged use or over-use of Lyrium, as is proven by Alistair who didn't suffer any severe withdrawal symptoms at all.

[Hellion Rex]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
That is exactly how you beat an addiction. If they have built up a physical addiction they will suffer withdrawal, but with enough discipline and willpower they will get through it. And both are something Templars got in spades.
What brings about the mental deterioration of the Templars are the prolonged use or over-use of Lyrium, as is proven by Alistair who didn't suffer any severe withdrawal symptoms at all.

Perhaps, perhaps not. We have not seen anyone beat the addiction yet, but it could very well happen. As for Alistair, I had thought since he had not yet taken his vows, he had not begun to utilize lyrium at all.

[leaguer of one]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
On the second point: I say that based on the fact that all Templars are taught a great deal of discipline, and that only weak (or bad) Templars like Samson, will succumb to their addiction.

Unless you take their lyrium away. After a while, it won't matter how much mental discipline they could have gained.

The Baconer wrote...

On the second point: I say that based on the fact that all Templars are taught a great deal of discipline, and that only weak (or bad) Templars like Samson, will succumb to their addiction.

That... seems pretty headcanon-y. You can't just "delete" the effects of withdrawal through willpower.

That is exactly how you beat an addiction. If they have built up a physical addiction they will suffer withdrawal, but with enough discipline and willpower they will get through it. And both are something Templars got in spades.
What brings about the mental deterioration of the Templars are the prolonged use or over-use of Lyrium, as is proven by Alistair who didn't suffer any severe withdrawal symptoms at all.

You have no idea what your taking about. This is a drug they have to take every 2 week to make sure their power work. This is  not the type of thing will power allown can beat being that it is something they literaly need. No matter what will power you have you going to go through withdrawal. It happens to every drug user that stops no matter what. The issue of willpower with drug user is about not getting drawn in to use the drug again, which is a problem being that they have to use the drug to use their powers.

[EmperorSahlertz]

eluvianix wrote...

Perhaps, perhaps not. We have not seen anyone beat the addiction yet, but it could very well happen. As for Alistair, I had thought since he had not yet taken his vows, he had not begun to utilize lyrium at all.

You cannot develop the talents without Lyrium. Retroactive canon.

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 07 février 2014 - 05:55 .

[leaguer of one]

eluvianix wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
That is exactly how you beat an addiction. If they have built up a physical addiction they will suffer withdrawal, but with enough discipline and willpower they will get through it. And both are something Templars got in spades.
What brings about the mental deterioration of the Templars are the prolonged use or over-use of Lyrium, as is proven by Alistair who didn't suffer any severe withdrawal symptoms at all.

Perhaps, perhaps not. We have not seen anyone beat the addiction yet, but it could very well happen. As for Alistair, I had thought since he had not yet taken his vows, he had not begun to utilize lyrium at all.

He was using lyrium in the comics.

[Hellion Rex]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Perhaps, perhaps not. We have not seen anyone beat the addiction yet, but it could very well happen. As for Alistair, I had thought since he had not yet taken his vows, he had not begun to utilize lyrium at all.

You cannot develop the talents without Lyrium. Retroactive canon.

I can never keep all the WoG's straight. So does this mean that now Alistair has been retconned so that he did imbibe lyrium as an initiate?

[TEWR]

eluvianix wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
That is exactly how you beat an addiction. If they have built up a physical addiction they will suffer withdrawal, but with enough discipline and willpower they will get through it. And both are something Templars got in spades.
What brings about the mental deterioration of the Templars are the prolonged use or over-use of Lyrium, as is proven by Alistair who didn't suffer any severe withdrawal symptoms at all.

Perhaps, perhaps not. We have not seen anyone beat the addiction yet, but it could very well happen. As for Alistair, I had thought since he had not yet taken his vows, he had not begun to utilize lyrium at all.

That's what he says. Templars only take lyrium when they take their vows, something he hadn't done before he was recruited.

But then, IIRC the Joining has a bit of lyrium thrown into it so maybe he didn't account for that.

I can never keep all the WoG's straight. So does this mean that now
Alistair has been retconned so that he did imbibe lyrium as an initiate?

Pretty much, assuming what I'm recalling about the Joining is inaccurate. Joining requires Darkspawn blood, Archdemon blood, magic, and lyrium IIRC.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 07 février 2014 - 05:59 .