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[leaguer of one]

eluvianix wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Perhaps, perhaps not. We have not seen anyone beat the addiction yet, but it could very well happen. As for Alistair, I had thought since he had not yet taken his vows, he had not begun to utilize lyrium at all.

You cannot develop the talents without Lyrium. Retroactive canon.

I can never keep all the WoG's straight. So does this mean that now Alistair has been retconned so that he did imbibe lyrium as an initiate?

As I said before. He uses Lyrium in the comics.

[EmperorSahlertz]

eluvianix wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Perhaps, perhaps not. We have not seen anyone beat the addiction yet, but it could very well happen. As for Alistair, I had thought since he had not yet taken his vows, he had not begun to utilize lyrium at all.

You cannot develop the talents without Lyrium. Retroactive canon.

I can never keep all the WoG's straight. So does this mean that now Alistair has been retconned so that he did imbibe lyrium as an initiate?

He may have taken some unknowingly. However Lyrium remains a requirement for the talents to develop.

[Dermain]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
That is exactly how you beat an addiction. If they have built up a physical addiction they will suffer withdrawal, but with enough discipline and willpower they will get through it.

When you have an oppiate, benzo, or alcohol addiction and you attempt to stop "cold turkey" there is a chance that you will die regardless of your level of "discipline and willpower". I am assuming the same is true for lyrium addiction unless it so shown otherwise.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Myrkale wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
That is exactly how you beat an addiction. If they have built up a physical addiction they will suffer withdrawal, but with enough discipline and willpower they will get through it.

When you have an oppiate, benzo, or alcohol addiction and you attempt to stop "cold turkey" there is a chance that you will die regardless of your level of "discipline and willpower". I am assuming the same is true for lyrium addiction unless it so shown otherwise.

Only a person who has had a prolonged and extreme abuse of alcohol is ever even at chacne of dying from his withdrawal symptoms. A young physically fit person would never die from alcohol withdrawal. The reason that alcohol withdrawal can be fatal is because in the subjects it threatens their bodies are already weakened by years of substance abuse.
So yeah, the old and frail Templars who are already retired anyway would probably not have a good time with the lack of Lyrium. The young and fit Templars, would go through the withdrawal and come out relatively unscathed. Depending on character of course.

[HiroVoid]

eluvianix wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Perhaps, perhaps not. We have not seen anyone beat the addiction yet, but it could very well happen. As for Alistair, I had thought since he had not yet taken his vows, he had not begun to utilize lyrium at all.

You cannot develop the talents without Lyrium. Retroactive canon.

I can never keep all the WoG's straight. So does this mean that now Alistair has been retconned so that he did imbibe lyrium as an initiate?

Alistair originally said otherwise probably because they couldn't actually incorporate the gameplay mechanic in Origins, but now its something they want to add back in since they probably found the talents requiring lyrium more interesting as well as it explaining why templars can use their talents.  Does bring back memories of arguments of people talking about how the templars must be mages who were trained by the chantry though.

[Sir JK]

dragonflight288 wrote...


I mean, I would like to hear her plan on how to house, feed and clothe mages after declaring Independence from the Chantry. And with the Nevarran Accord declared void by Lambert and the templars, the mages not only have to solve these problems but also deal with a bunch of zealots trying to kill them for the high crime of existing.

Indeed. Couple this with that they no longer have their roofs, their softbeds, their warm food, their fresh ale or their vast libraries. That's going to cause stress eventually. Those things do by no means counter the lack of freedoms they had, but now they'll have neither for the coming time period. Strife has a tendency to rob you of your freedoms for the sake of neccessity.

I'm curious how she'll handle that. Especially since a large amount of mages did not want to fight. That'll test her leadership skills significantly.

I speculate that the mage rebellion won't be as benevolent to common man as they want to be. There'll be food stolen, barns seized, caravans ambushed and so forth. The question is not if, but how much and if it is sanctioned from above.

[TK514]

Sir JK wrote...

Indeed. Couple this with that they no longer have their roofs, their softbeds, their warm food, their fresh ale or their vast libraries. That's going to cause stress eventually. Those things do by no means counter the lack of freedoms they had, but now they'll have neither for the coming time period. Strife has a tendency to rob you of your freedoms for the sake of neccessity.

I'm curious how she'll handle that. Especially since a large amount of mages did not want to fight. That'll test her leadership skills significantly.

I speculate that the mage rebellion won't be as benevolent to common man as they want to be. There'll be food stolen, barns seized, caravans ambushed and so forth. The question is not if, but how much and if it is sanctioned from above.

Not to mention being cut off from the free lyrium supplies they were granted under the Chantry.  No lyrium, no enchanting.  No enchanting, no goods to sell, no coin.  And I doubt the dwarves would extend them credit.  They aren't exactly what you'd call a good credit risk at the moment.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Mage rebelion should be nothing more than abomnations jumpscare as it is war and it is not meredith when she hold you in warm and luxury cell... so no food , no place to sleep , hostile people around them and they have no chance against templars if they intend do that realistically we should end fighting against abomnation hordes...

[ElvaliaRavenHart]

leaguer of one wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Perhaps, perhaps not. We have not seen anyone beat the addiction yet, but it could very well happen. As for Alistair, I had thought since he had not yet taken his vows, he had not begun to utilize lyrium at all.

You cannot develop the talents without Lyrium. Retroactive canon.

I can never keep all the WoG's straight. So does this mean that now Alistair has been retconned so that he did imbibe lyrium as an initiate?

As I said before. He uses Lyrium in the comics.

I don't recall Alistair using lyrium in the comics?  I don't think he does. 

With Fiona it's hard to say.  This could go either way.  She is willful and determined.  She has battle experience.  The only counter I see so far to Adrian whispering in her ear is Rhys being a counter to this.  Rhys I think at the end of Asunder even tells her he will kill her himself if she(Adrian) pulls another stunt like she did.  Fiona at least gave the Divine a chance with the agreed meeting where Lambert through everything to chaos with the murder of the first enchanters.  Some escaped and some didn't.  So Fiona gave the Divine a chance to compromise.

I'd have to say she is more fair minded than people are giving her credit for.   Her mind is changeable, her opinion on one was changed (Maric). 

[Dave of Canada]

ElvaliaRavenHart wrote...

I don't recall Alistair using lyrium in the comics?  I don't think he does.    

He admits to retaking it for his Templar powers when going to Tevinter.

[ElvaliaRavenHart]

Ok, Dave thanks.

[The Baconer]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
That is exactly how you beat an addiction. If they have built up a physical addiction they will suffer withdrawal, but with enough discipline and willpower they will get through it. And both are something Templars got in spades.
What brings about the mental deterioration of the Templars are the prolonged use or over-use of Lyrium, as is proven by Alistair who didn't suffer any severe withdrawal symptoms at all.

I don't think it the severity of Lyrium withdrawals after prolonged use have been really elaborated upon. Evangeline said she would be "useless" after a week without doses, but didn't say anything regarding the recovery process. Irminric from DA:O seems barely lucid at all, but we don't know how old he was or how long he had been imprisoned without access to the substance, or how his stay in the dungeon could have contributed to his condition. At most we could make an educated guess that he was without Lyrium for a few months most likely.

I would imagine a sudden cut-off of Lyrium would be disastrous at least in the short-term, with the vets who have been using it the longest being the most afflicted.

[dragonflight288]

TK514 wrote...

Sir JK wrote...

Indeed. Couple this with that they no longer have their roofs, their softbeds, their warm food, their fresh ale or their vast libraries. That's going to cause stress eventually. Those things do by no means counter the lack of freedoms they had, but now they'll have neither for the coming time period. Strife has a tendency to rob you of your freedoms for the sake of neccessity.

I'm curious how she'll handle that. Especially since a large amount of mages did not want to fight. That'll test her leadership skills significantly.

I speculate that the mage rebellion won't be as benevolent to common man as they want to be. There'll be food stolen, barns seized, caravans ambushed and so forth. The question is not if, but how much and if it is sanctioned from above.

Not to mention being cut off from the free lyrium supplies they were granted under the Chantry.  No lyrium, no enchanting.  No enchanting, no goods to sell, no coin.  And I doubt the dwarves would extend them credit.  They aren't exactly what you'd call a good credit risk at the moment.

Did they have free lyrium supplies? I know the Chantry controlled the lyrium trade, and they probably supplied the Circles and the templars, but the tranquil at Ostagar also makes it clear that the Circle's do not get by on charity, and they relied quite heavily on enchanting services to supply the circle's their wealth with which to buy food, supplies, books and such. 

Unless the mages can get lyrium, they will not have any capability to offer enchanting services, or do any magic rituals that would otherwise require it. Unless they turned to blood magic to compensate for those rituals lack of lyrium and that's a slippery slope.

As I'm not in charge of economics or trade routes in the game, I don't know if the Circle's had to purchase lyrium from the Chantry, or if the Chantry simply gave it to the Circles. That is actually never specified.

I think the Circle's were given the lyrium by the Chantry so long as they were in service to the Chantry, but I really can't think where it's actually stated if that's true, or even if it's stated. 

[leaguer of one]

dragonflight288 wrote...

TK514 wrote...

Sir JK wrote...

Indeed. Couple this with that they no longer have their roofs, their softbeds, their warm food, their fresh ale or their vast libraries. That's going to cause stress eventually. Those things do by no means counter the lack of freedoms they had, but now they'll have neither for the coming time period. Strife has a tendency to rob you of your freedoms for the sake of neccessity.

I'm curious how she'll handle that. Especially since a large amount of mages did not want to fight. That'll test her leadership skills significantly.

I speculate that the mage rebellion won't be as benevolent to common man as they want to be. There'll be food stolen, barns seized, caravans ambushed and so forth. The question is not if, but how much and if it is sanctioned from above.

Not to mention being cut off from the free lyrium supplies they were granted under the Chantry.  No lyrium, no enchanting.  No enchanting, no goods to sell, no coin.  And I doubt the dwarves would extend them credit.  They aren't exactly what you'd call a good credit risk at the moment.

Did they have free lyrium supplies? I know the Chantry controlled the lyrium trade, and they probably supplied the Circles and the templars, but the tranquil at Ostagar also makes it clear that the Circle's do not get by on charity, and they relied quite heavily on enchanting services to supply the circle's their wealth with which to buy food, supplies, books and such. 

Unless the mages can get lyrium, they will not have any capability to offer enchanting services, or do any magic rituals that would otherwise require it. Unless they turned to blood magic to compensate for those rituals lack of lyrium and that's a slippery slope.

As I'm not in charge of economics or trade routes in the game, I don't know if the Circle's had to purchase lyrium from the Chantry, or if the Chantry simply gave it to the Circles. That is actually never specified.

I think the Circle's were given the lyrium by the Chantry so long as they were in service to the Chantry, but I really can't think where it's actually stated if that's true, or even if it's stated. 

It's not like the Chantry does not want teh mages. They are always open to welcome them back.

[Sir JK]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Did they have free lyrium supplies? I know the Chantry controlled the lyrium trade, and they probably supplied the Circles and the templars, but the tranquil at Ostagar also makes it clear that the Circle's do not get by on charity, and they relied quite heavily on enchanting services to supply the circle's their wealth with which to buy food, supplies, books and such. 

Unless the mages can get lyrium, they will not have any capability to offer enchanting services, or do any magic rituals that would otherwise require it. Unless they turned to blood magic to compensate for those rituals lack of lyrium and that's a slippery slope.

As I'm not in charge of economics or trade routes in the game, I don't know if the Circle's had to purchase lyrium from the Chantry, or if the Chantry simply gave it to the Circles. That is actually never specified.

I think the Circle's were given the lyrium by the Chantry so long as they were in service to the Chantry, but I really can't think where it's actually stated if that's true, or even if it's stated. 

Regardless of whether it was free or not, the trade connections were through Chantry channels. Those are gone now. Besides... any caravan carrying lyrium ought to be a beacon to any templar. Both because it's lyrium, and because there's only one other group that wants it besides them.

But if I am allowed to speculate freely, I'd say that the circles were given minimum amounts of Lyrium to be able to handle their mission. All they need for harrowing and other rituals required by the chantry. The rest they'd have to buy themselves. After all a circle with no lyrium couldn't function.

[dragonflight288]

 It's not like the Chantry does not want teh mages. They are always open to welcome them back.

Maybe, maybe not. Petrice (if she lives) pretty much tells Hawke that there's a sect in the Chantry that is increasingly radical and is willing to go to any means to achieve their ends.

Lambert wouldn't have been successful in villifying mages among templars, who swore fealty to the Chantry after roughly 700 years of service if there hadn't already been a desire to kill mages.

I think it's been established, both in Origins as Duncan clearly states, what Irving says about the Chantry punishing its own, Alrik's actions and the silent consent/lack of investigation by his superiors, some of the radical lines by Cullen and so on, that the Chantry merely tolerates magic. 

Wynne said in Awakening that any move by the mages would result in their mass slaughter as the Chantry would rather see all the mages dead than free, and Lambert proved this to be true. 

Even if the mages returned to the Chantry, would that stop the templars who have also broken from the Chantry from killing them? The Nevarran Accord is declared void and the templars/seekers are no longer held accountable by the Chantry. They answer to no one but themselves. I'm sure the Chantry will want them back too, but there's 1000 years of religous dogma against mages and templars getting used to the idea that they have divine authority over mages to deal with. 

[EmperorSahlertz]

The Baconer wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
That is exactly how you beat an addiction. If they have built up a physical addiction they will suffer withdrawal, but with enough discipline and willpower they will get through it. And both are something Templars got in spades.
What brings about the mental deterioration of the Templars are the prolonged use or over-use of Lyrium, as is proven by Alistair who didn't suffer any severe withdrawal symptoms at all.

I don't think it the severity of Lyrium withdrawals after prolonged use have been really elaborated upon. Evangeline said she would be "useless" after a week without doses, but didn't say anything regarding the recovery process. Irminric from DA:O seems barely lucid at all, but we don't know how old he was or how long he had been imprisoned without access to the substance, or how his stay in the dungeon could have contributed to his condition. At most we could make an educated guess that he was without Lyrium for a few months most likely.

I would imagine a sudden cut-off of Lyrium would be disastrous at least in the short-term, with the vets who have been using it the longest being the most afflicted.

I always read this "useless" as her talents would have disappeared. However, even if it were the other possibility, then we don't know enough specifics about her usage of Lyrium (amount, frequency etc.).
I also think the assumption that Templars will all of a sudden lose all their storages of Lyrium. We already know that they have control of the Circles, so why do people assume they have no Lyrium left whatsoever? I think it is far more likely that their loss of Lyrium will be a gradual affair, and that the weak Templars who had an overconsumption of Lyrium will be weeded out the first.

[ElvaliaRavenHart]

@ Sir JK

I have to agree, because of the smuggling of lyriun from dust town to Goswin in DAO. Mages themselves I don't think had access to it. I'd say the Knight Commander and First Enchanter had access to it and more than likely handed it out when needed.

Aside from mages smuggling it in.

Modifié par ElvaliaRavenHart, 07 février 2014 - 07:44 .

[dragonflight288]

Sir JK wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

Did they have free lyrium supplies? I know the Chantry controlled the lyrium trade, and they probably supplied the Circles and the templars, but the tranquil at Ostagar also makes it clear that the Circle's do not get by on charity, and they relied quite heavily on enchanting services to supply the circle's their wealth with which to buy food, supplies, books and such. 

Unless the mages can get lyrium, they will not have any capability to offer enchanting services, or do any magic rituals that would otherwise require it. Unless they turned to blood magic to compensate for those rituals lack of lyrium and that's a slippery slope.

As I'm not in charge of economics or trade routes in the game, I don't know if the Circle's had to purchase lyrium from the Chantry, or if the Chantry simply gave it to the Circles. That is actually never specified.

I think the Circle's were given the lyrium by the Chantry so long as they were in service to the Chantry, but I really can't think where it's actually stated if that's true, or even if it's stated. 

Regardless of whether it was free or not, the trade connections were through Chantry channels. Those are gone now. Besides... any caravan carrying lyrium ought to be a beacon to any templar. Both because it's lyrium, and because there's only one other group that wants it besides them.

But if I am allowed to speculate freely, I'd say that the circles were given minimum amounts of Lyrium to be able to handle their mission. All they need for harrowing and other rituals required by the chantry. The rest they'd have to buy themselves. After all a circle with no lyrium couldn't function.

Well, any kingdom that had a skilled dwarven blacksmith may want lyrium so that dwarf can do enchanting services. 

But that's true about the lyrium. Thing is, I don't know if the Chantry will keep buying the lyrium as the only two groups on the surface who need it in large amounts have both left the Chantry. That would be a waste of money of no one is going to use it. The mages and the templars are both going to be competing for it, and that probably means dealing with Orzamamr directly, or attacking/robbing Chantry stores of it.

[leaguer of one]

dragonflight288 wrote...

 It's not like the Chantry does not want teh mages. They are always open to welcome them back.

Maybe, maybe not. Petrice (if she lives) pretty much tells Hawke that there's a sect in the Chantry that is increasingly radical and is willing to go to any means to achieve their ends.

Lambert wouldn't have been successful in villifying mages among templars, who swore fealty to the Chantry after roughly 700 years of service if there hadn't already been a desire to kill mages.

I think it's been established, both in Origins as Duncan clearly states, what Irving says about the Chantry punishing its own, Alrik's actions and the silent consent/lack of investigation by his superiors, some of the radical lines by Cullen and so on, that the Chantry merely tolerates magic. 

Wynne said in Awakening that any move by the mages would result in their mass slaughter as the Chantry would rather see all the mages dead than free, and Lambert proved this to be true. 

Even if the mages returned to the Chantry, would that stop the templars who have also broken from the Chantry from killing them? The Nevarran Accord is declared void and the templars/seekers are no longer held accountable by the Chantry. They answer to no one but themselves. I'm sure the Chantry will want them back too, but there's 1000 years of religous dogma against mages and templars getting used to the idea that they have divine authority over mages to deal with. 

Right now the chantry is a mess. And the current divine is a polition first, she not going to have punishment and violence just because. The issue is more the templars then the mages being that the templars acted ontheir own. Wynnes common is based on the chantry on the old rule. With the chantry having  most their power in disaray, they need some form of balance back. The only thing the chantry has no to back them  now is finacal, man power is the issue. 
It would be a good idea to try to branch back to the mages and make a deal with them with mutual benifits. 

The real issue is the templars.

[Jaison1986]

I think it would be better to take advantage of this situation to make the Chantry more like the real world religious organizations. With no real political and military power. And leave the mages and other issues to more sensible groups instead. Justina seems like the kind of leader that would agree with this, since she is no zealot like most of the previous divines.

[leaguer of one]

Jaison1986 wrote...

I think it would be better to take advantage of this situation to make the Chantry more like the real world religious organizations. With no real political and military power. And leave the mages and other issues to more sensible groups instead. Justina seems like the kind of leader that would agree with this, since she is no zealot like most of the previous divines.

That's up to the government of each country not the chantry. Added, with the mage theirs an issue of finacal backing. The only organization that has the finaces are the governments. Those are the last group we want to back the mages meaning we are opening a can of worms of heavily magic backed wars with little regulation.
Imagine a country that would think to use harvesters asa weapon of mass distrauction.

[Jaison1986]

leaguer of one wrote...

Jaison1986 wrote...

I think it would be better to take advantage of this situation to make the Chantry more like the real world religious organizations. With no real political and military power. And leave the mages and other issues to more sensible groups instead. Justina seems like the kind of leader that would agree with this, since she is no zealot like most of the previous divines.

That's up to the government of each country not the chantry. Added, with the mage theirs an issue of finacal backing. The only organization that has the finaces are the governments. Those are the last group we want to back the mages meaning we are opening a can of worms of heavily magic backed wars with little regulation.
Imagine a country that would think to use harvesters asa weapon of mass distrauction.

And is the Chantry better? They call for Holy wars every time a group threatens their influence and power. They allowed the use of mages in the army during the Qunari wars. I doubt much would change with the kingdom watching over the mages instead of the Chantry. And I doubt they would allow the use of demons and abominations into wars. Everyone know they can't be controlled. 

[leaguer of one]

Jaison1986 wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

Jaison1986 wrote...

I think it would be better to take advantage of this situation to make the Chantry more like the real world religious organizations. With no real political and military power. And leave the mages and other issues to more sensible groups instead. Justina seems like the kind of leader that would agree with this, since she is no zealot like most of the previous divines.

That's up to the government of each country not the chantry. Added, with the mage theirs an issue of finacal backing. The only organization that has the finaces are the governments. Those are the last group we want to back the mages meaning we are opening a can of worms of heavily magic backed wars with little regulation.
Imagine a country that would think to use harvesters asa weapon of mass distrauction.

And is the Chantry better? They call for Holy wars every time a group threatens their influence and power. They allowed the use of mages in the army during the Qunari wars. I doubt much would change with the kingdom watching over the mages instead of the Chantry. And I doubt they would allow the use of demons and abominations into wars. Everyone know they can't be controlled. 

The chantry has it pros and cons like any organisation. A major pro is that they actually do regulate and control the use and misuse of magic. This issue is that in doing so they get boggled down by doctrine and the disreguard of the rights of mages. 
Any time they use mages in war it's control and over seen to make sure it's used properly.(Outside of Orlesian wars but that's another matter.)

And of course country would use demons and abonmination in wars. With the drive to win and no regulation stopping them, a country will do anything to win a war. Look at WW1 and you can see this.

War is the lowest from of hell if all sides are looking to win and don't care how.

[Jaison1986]

They thought that in the Soldier Keep DLC. The wardens used demons to fight their enemies and they started to attack both enemies and allies alike. Even if they try, I think it would take a single war to realize how much of an mistake that is. I don't really believe this notion that the Chantry needs to be involved to make sure mages are controlled. I believe in trying new things. We can't know untill we try.

Modifié par Jaison1986, 07 février 2014 - 12:06 .