1033 réponses à ce sujet

[MisterJB]

Silfren wrote...
Meh.  I've read a great many of JB's posts and I concur that it's kind of odd for him to be claiming to not be anti-mage now.  He's been one of the biggest proponents of "OMG MAGES WILL ONLY EVER BE TEVINTER BECAUSE THAT'S JUST WHAT MAGES DOOOOOOO" for pretty much ever.  He's hardly "just rather conservative pro-Circle." 

No, what I have been a proponent of is:
"Magic is an inherent source of power that places some men above others by birth and it is only natural for people to use their talents for their own benefit regardless of the affects this may have on others. Therefore, there should be a system in place that protects the powerless from the powerful. I believe the best solution is to isolate mages where they can live in community without affecting the lives of others and guard them with police forces capable of disarming them and who have the best interests of the powerless in mind. It may not be a perfect system and I am open to suggestion on improvement but I do believe it should, at least, be the base upon which we make improvements."

The differences may be a bit subtle for you but I can explain. For one, I don't claim Tevinter is the ultimate result of any endeavor conduct by mages; I simply claim that using one's talents for own's benefit is only natural but that this can lead to non-mages being harmed when mages use their talents for their benefit. Also, I don't attribute any inherent negative characteristic to mages alone; I simply claim that power is a corruptive force on all people including those that we denominate as "mages".

Modifié par MisterJB, 02 février 2014 - 09:39 .

[Silfren]

Rassler wrote...

Silfren wrote...

You're being kind of ridiculous.  Not being an evil or even a morally grey character =/= author favorite.

You are missing the point. What she did was imposible to do without being at least gray but magically all gray/evil things are done by other characters like Adrian leaving her a moral character.  Most definitely Author's favorite signs.

Again, that's ridiculous.  By this argument ANY character from ANY story who is written so as to not do evil things is an author's favorite.  It's as if you think that characters of the kind of alignment so as to not be willing to do evil things are only and always written that way because they are an author's darlings.  It couldn't POSSIBLY be that those characters exist simply because they are what the story needs: characters who are determined not to act in morally questionable ways are just as valid as other characters; they don't exist just because some author is so in love with them that they can't bear to have this character do evil. 

If you think that way, then you have a very shallow and limited concept of story, narrative, and characters in general.

It's clear that you have a problem with Fiona specifically because you think she is an author's favorite.  This warrants a separate discussion since it is only your opinion and one based on extremely specious reasoning, but it bears asking the question: why the hell does it bother you so much?

Besides all that, you don't know anything about what Fiona has done in the decade or so that she's been off-screen.  She may well not be as morally good as you think.

[BlueMagitek]

Oh good, another mage/templar topic. I was avoiding this as I'm not a Fiona fan, but I keep seeing posts on my page. :/

[leaguer of one]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...
The problem was not that they were on a leash. It's templars started tackling them, pinning them down, putting  tight rope around their necks and dragging them in cages by the ropes because they the mages may bite. And then when the mages stated complaining about it the Templars just made the road tughter.

Simple system didn't worked templars did bad that they tried control mages what is impossible and thanks to that we had so many magical incydents and mess that we have now. And yes leash always will be problem because mages will want normal lifes and thats normal that they want such thing but they can't because they are mages doesn't mean that they care and won't follow toward it uldred rebelion is best example.

Impossible? It only when bad because the templars start not doing their jobs correctly and being inflexible to the rights of mages. Sorry, it all feel apart because Templars lIke Meredith were put in charge.

Changes nothing either templars will be in charge (thing are as they were before) or mages (new tevinter) .And lets face it meredith was right about mages even if she was fanatical bi*** and that was reason why she was such bi*** .

Or Mages and Templars work together to police mages. Instead of having nothing but Templar guiards, have mage guards as well. Train mages and templars together. Have mages and templars go out and bring new mages together. Have Mages and Templars hunt blood mages.

You know...Working together...

Pretty much sure mages will love bring other mages and templars will love work with peoples they should control... eh that naivety let you see world in so many rainbow colors

How would having mages work with templars that way mean that? That's like saying elves can't be guards because they are all thieves.

[Lulupab]

hhh89 wrote...

@Rassler: she did nothing. The actions that lead to conflict was made by Adrian (and Lambert). The mages were rescued by Wynne, Evangeline and Leliana, with a fundamental role to the Divine. Rhys is the one who decided the vote. The separation of the mages has little to with Fiona.

Exactly, Fiona proposed the separation, it was denied but she was trying still. Its was because of actions of people you named that it was possible for Fiona to get the separation vote in 2nd attempt. She did almost nothing yet as Grand Enchanter and starter of separation vote she will be the default leader of rebellion unless devs kill her in the future. The point is she does nothing immoral herself but gets the credit and remians moral. Which is why I mentioned there is sings of Author's favorite.

[leaguer of one]

MisterJB wrote...

Silfren wrote...
Meh.  I've read a great many of JB's posts and I concur that it's kind of odd for him to be claiming to not be anti-mage now.  He's been one of the biggest proponents of "OMG MAGES WILL ONLY EVER BE TEVINTER BECAUSE THAT'S JUST WHAT MAGES DOOOOOOO" for pretty much ever.  He's hardly "just rather conservative pro-Circle." 

No, what I have been a proponent of is:
"Magic is an inherent source of power that places some men above others by birth and it is only natural for people to use their talents for their own benefit regardless of the affects this may have on others. Therefore, there should be a system in place that protects the powerless from the powerful. I believe the best solution is to isolate mages where they can live in community without affecting the lives of others and guard them with police forces capable of disarming them and who have the best interests of the powerless in mind. It may not be a perfect system and I am open to suggestion on improvement but I do believe it should, at least, be the base upon which we make improvements."

The differences may be a bit subtle for you but I can explain. For one, I don't claim Tevinter is the ultimate result of any endeavor conduct by mages; I simply claim that using one's talents for own's benefit is only natural but that this can lead to non-mages being harmed when mages use their talents for their benefit. Also, I don't attribute any inherent negative characteristic to mages alone; I simply claim that power is a corruptive force on all people including those that we denominate as "mages".

You posted a link to a video of soldiers butchering mages in Witcher 2 and said"This is what I want to do to the mages in da".
....

*Drops the mic.

[Hellion Rex]

@MisterJB, you have been charged with seditious treason against the magi by Leaguer of One. How do you plead?

[Veruin]

leaguer of one wrote...
You posted a link to a video of soldiers butchering mages in Witcher 2 and said"This is what I want to do to the mages in da".
....

*Drops the mic.

To be fair, I don't think he'd do that to a pro mage that, I dunno, actually mattered and was taken seriously.

[The Elder King]

Rassler wrote...

Exactly, Fiona proposed the separation, it was denied but she was trying still. Its was because of actions of people you named that it was possible for Fiona to get the separation vote in 2nd attempt. She did almost nothing yet as Grand Enchanter and starter of separation vote she will be the default leader of rebellion unless devs kill her in the future. The point is she does nothing immoral herself but gets the credit and remians moral. Which is why I mentioned there is sings of Author's favorite.

So you're basing she's the author's favourite without knowing if in DAI she'll be killed off or there'll be a new leader.

[MisterJB]

leaguer of one wrote...
You posted a link to a video of soldiers butchering mages in Witcher 2 and said"This is what I want to do to the mages in da".
....

*Drops the mic.

So? It was a joke; just like some posters talk about the rise of a Second Tevinter. It's meant to be over the top and it's a way of blowing steam while poking the opposite side a little.

[MisterJB]

eluvianix wrote...

@MisterJB, you have been charged with seditious treason against the magi by Leaguer of One. How do you plead?

This question is facetious. How can I be a traitor to something I have never been a part of or supported?

Therefore, I can't either be guilty or non-guilty.

[TheKomandorShepard]

leaguer of one wrote...

How would having mages work with templars that way mean that? That's like saying elves can't be guards because they are all thieves.

Simple many don't like being controled and i m such person so i can say that i wouldn't like some religious idiots control my life and force me living and doing what i don't want to.Most want make their lifes better and mages will try do that . When templars will go in other direction opposite they will try control mages to provide safety protecting theirs (non-mages).Person can't be free when is controled so one will be upset and they will fight to win,Now we had templars who were winners in tevinter mages won.Someone have to win and be in charge and either it will be mage or non-mage.

 

[The Elder King]

@leaguer of one: he was joking. I stated in this very thread that I'd burn Fiona and Adrian. That doesn't mean I'd do it, and I'm neutral on the mage-templar scale.

[Hellion Rex]

MisterJB wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

@MisterJB, you have been charged with seditious treason against the magi by Leaguer of One. How do you plead?

This question is facetious. How can I be a traitor to something I have never been a part of or supported?

Therefore, I can't either be guilty or non-guilty.

Your refusal to answer automatically makes you guilty. Off with his head!

[Lulupab]

MisterJB is like a smart mage oppressor not anti-mage . he doesn't want all mages dead/tranquil or anything but that is the only cruel thing he doesn't want done to the mages.

It is simple really, if you think mages should go back to the circles, exactly like before, you are a little more than pro-templar, leaning over to being anti-mage. You don't see me call everyone anti-mage do you? Because I have seen few people like JB here.

Modifié par Rassler, 02 février 2014 - 09:47 .

[Hellion Rex]

hhh89 wrote...

@leaguer of one: he was joking. I stated in this very thread that I'd burn Fiona and Adrian. That doesn't mean I'd do it, and I'm neutral on the mage-templar scale.

Oh you were joking?

I was quite serious.

[The Elder King]

Rassler wrote...

MisterJB is like a smart mage oppressor not anti-mage . he doesn't want all mages dead/tranquil or anything but that is the only cruel thing he doesn't want done to the mages.

It is simple really, if you think mages should go back to the circles, exactly like before, you are a little more than pro-templar, leaning over to being anti-mage. You don't see me call everyone anti-mage do you? Because I have seen few people like JB here.

Nope, he proposed a lot of times changes to the previous Circle system.

[Silfren]

Rassler wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

@Rassler: she did nothing. The actions that lead to conflict was made by Adrian (and Lambert). The mages were rescued by Wynne, Evangeline and Leliana, with a fundamental role to the Divine. Rhys is the one who decided the vote. The separation of the mages has little to with Fiona.

Exactly, Fiona proposed the separation, it was denied but she was trying still. Its was because of actions of people you named that it was possible for Fiona to get the separation vote in 2nd attempt. She did almost nothing yet as Grand Enchanter and starter of separation vote she will be the default leader of rebellion unless devs kill her in the future. The point is she does nothing immoral herself but gets the credit and remians moral. Which is why I mentioned there is sings of Author's favorite.

It sounds more like you just hate the character and are trying to justify it by dismissing her as an authorial favorite.  Again, we don't know anything about Fiona between the end of The Calling and the end of Asunder.  Her role in the latter book are extremely small and tell us precious little about what she has been doing in all this time.  She could well have things in her past over that period which add up to her being morally grey as the rest of them.  Even so, I still find it weird that you are so hellbent on labeling any character which doesn't engage in acts that are something other than morally good as author favorites. 

Beyond that, what you describe is the mark of a cunning and capable leader; being able to take the credit  while keeping her hands clean--or apparently clean--is what shrewd rulers DO.  That's not a mark of being an author's darling. 

[Veruin]

eluvianix wrote...
Oh you were joking?

I was quite serious.

It's ok.  I'll bring an angry mob to help out.

[The Elder King]

eluvianix wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

@leaguer of one: he was joking. I stated in this very thread that I'd burn Fiona and Adrian. That doesn't mean I'd do it, and I'm neutral on the mage-templar scale.

Oh you were joking?

I was quite serious.

Yeah. Well, at least in the case of Fiona. I'm not sure about Adrian, though she needs to be punished for her crimes.
Edit: and i didn't recall you wanted to kill Fiona too. In the past we discussed only about Adrian.

Modifié par hhh89, 02 février 2014 - 09:51 .

[MisterJB]

Because I have seen few people like JB here.

There are no people like me. There is only me.

I've waited years to say that! Thank you.

[Lulupab]

hhh89 wrote...

Rassler wrote...

MisterJB is like a smart mage oppressor not anti-mage . he doesn't want all mages dead/tranquil or anything but that is the only cruel thing he doesn't want done to the mages.

It is simple really, if you think mages should go back to the circles, exactly like before, you are a little more than pro-templar, leaning over to being anti-mage. You don't see me call everyone anti-mage do you? Because I have seen few people like JB here.

Nope, he proposed a lot of times changes to the previous Circle system.

I haven't seen them but the Templars would deny any change without thinking. Fiona and Adrian and others did what they did to break this stubbornness

[AresKeith]

eluvianix wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

@leaguer of one: he was joking. I stated in this very thread that I'd burn Fiona and Adrian. That doesn't mean I'd do it, and I'm neutral on the mage-templar scale.

Oh you were joking?

I was quite serious.

I'm neutral and I would definitly kill Adrian

I'm still debating on Fiona

[Hellion Rex]

AresKeith wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

@leaguer of one: he was joking. I stated in this very thread that I'd burn Fiona and Adrian. That doesn't mean I'd do it, and I'm neutral on the mage-templar scale.

Oh you were joking?

I was quite serious.

I'm neutral and I would definitly kill Adrian

I'm still debating on Fiona

When Rhys was debating whether or not to kick her off the ledge in Asunder, I was yelling at the top my lungs for him to do it. I HATE Adrian.

[The Elder King]

@Rassler: how is relevant what the templars would do with MisterJB's opinion?