449 réponses à ce sujet

[KaiserShep]

Maiden Crowe wrote...


@OP:
I prefer the name "antagonist". If a "villain" deserves the term "villain", they already aren't what I like in antagonists.

Ok if you want to argue semantics then you can change the question to "what makes a great antagonist" but I Loghain still falls firmly under the villain catagory whether you like the term or not. Now you can argue that Loghain isnt an evil person at heart and had "good intentions" however his actions dont reflect this, in fact there seems to be no logical reason why Loghain would have done most of the stuff he did other than the fact that the plot demanded a more human villain (because the Archdemon wasnt interesting enough) and Loghain was crowbared in to fill that role.

Loghain was more a misguided general that was paranoid about a new Orlesian occupation than a villain. If anything, Howe was the human villain of the story. He was manipulative and stabbed allies in the back simply to advance himself. Loghain was wrong to betray Cailan, outlaw the Wardens and collude with Tevinter slavers, but everything he did, terrible as it was, was not for his own personal benefit. Howe was a total bastard by comparison. Heck Loghain even went out honorably, regardless of whether you killed him after the duel, or conscripted him into the Grey Wardens.

I believe I read somewhere that the original plan was to have Loghain corrupted under the influence of the Archdemon and as cliche as it is I would have much rathered they stuck with this plan instead as at least it is somewhat more believable than the crap they ended up going with.

Basically, proto-Saren? That actually sounds a lot cheaper, because all it's doing now is taking responsibility out of his hands and putting it all on the purely malevolent thing you have to kill. This was something that had adverse effects on the Illusive Man's characterization in ME3. Indoctrination is one of the most problematic elements in Mass Effect, so I'm glad that there was no real equivalent in Dragon Age.

Modifié par KaiserShep, 04 février 2014 - 10:08 .

[Bail_Darilar]

Believability and someone who simultaneously exhibits strengths and weaknesses. Saren and Loghain were examples of this, Saren choosing to side with the reapers in order to save himself and possibly others but was a formidable enemy. Loghain was the same especially if you explored his past and learn his backstory, what he did during the blight was despicable but understandable considering his understandable hatred towards the Orlesians.

[Ieldra]

KaiserShep wrote...

Maiden Crowe wrote...
I believe I read somewhere that the original plan was to have Loghain corrupted under the influence of the Archdemon and as cliche as it is I would have much rathered they stuck with this plan instead as at least it is somewhat more believable than the crap they ended up going with.

Basically, proto-Saren? That actually sounds a lot cheaper, because all it's doing now is taking responsibility out of his hands and putting it all on the purely malevolent thing you have to kill. This was something that had adverse effects on the Illusive Man's characterization in ME3. Indoctrination is one of the most problematic elements in Mass Effect, so I'm glad that there was no real equivalent in Dragon Age.

This. So. Much.

I hate how some stories paint people's "evil" as the result of some pervasive outside influence, which not only "corrupts" them from some supposed previous state of grace but makes them ugly and disfigured on top of it, suggesting that an ugly appearance and evil are in some way related. I think this is one of the most common delusions people are fed by a certain kind of fantasy stories.

No, I appreciate that not only Loghain didn't become Tainted, but that even those who are are often more than things you have to kill. Never mind the standard darkspawn, I love what Awakenings did with them.

Note how I avoided the use of the term "corruption" as well, for this implies not only a moral angle which I don't believe the Taint carries, or should carry, but also that there is some natural state of being which is intrinsically preferable to some other. The Taint is a disease, nothing more, and not even that to those who don't care about the disfiguration it brings. Apart from the two-sided effect of becoming receptive to the archdemons' communication, it is a matter of aesthetics, not morality.

[KaiserShep]

Ruck is a good example. He was hopelessly tainted, but I couldn't really bring my main Warden to put him out of his misery. Well, that, and I had so much coin by the time I got to him that I was able to buy some great gear from him.

[The Six Path of Pain]

It really depends on your own personal taste. I personally like villains who are evil,sadistic,insane, power hungry and just plain crazy. Examples: from Final Fantasy I love Kefka,Sephiroth, and The Emperor. From DBZ I love the main three villains Frieza,Cell, and Buu...also Broly lol I personally find villains who,for example,are acting and doing the things they are doing to protect someone or something really boring and wimpy Another example from Final Fantasy would be Caius...what a crybaby Though I think a good example of a villain doing this would be Shinobu Sensui from Yu Yu Hakusho. Since he believed in destroying anything that was evil. And once he learned that human beings were the true evil in this world he decided to protect it by trying to wipe out humanity. Man that's a good story arc. I think i'm going to rewatch that now lol Anyway it's all a matter of opinion really.

[Vidpci]

Either someone who honestly thinks what they're doing is right or for a just cause (Loghain in Origins) or someone like the Joker that's twisted, sadistic and generally finds humor/pleasure in the acts they're committing. Honestly, I prefer the mentally deranged and unstable to the "but if you only seen things my way" type because there doesn't need to be a reason. I think writers try to put to much effort into their villains when they could just say they're a complete nutcase. The worst would be the coward/puppet that only does what he's told because he sees no other way (Saren in Mass Effect).

[Jedimaster88]

A great villain..hmmm..

Well Metal Gear Solid series has some of my favourite villains. Maybe the one reason for this is that they are a bit...theatrical. I like it . It makes them memorable. Every time I see Liquid Ocelot on my tv-screen, I cant help but smile even though I know he does nasty things.

"BROTHER!!!! Its not over...not yet!!"

[Wulfram]

Villains need to appear a credible threat. Everything else is optional

[MissOuJ]

KaiserShep wrote...

Maiden Crowe wrote...


@OP:
I prefer the name "antagonist". If a "villain" deserves the term "villain", they already aren't what I like in antagonists.

Ok if you want to argue semantics then you can change the question to "what makes a great antagonist" but I Loghain still falls firmly under the villain catagory whether you like the term or not. Now you can argue that Loghain isnt an evil person at heart and had "good intentions" however his actions dont reflect this, in fact there seems to be no logical reason why Loghain would have done most of the stuff he did other than the fact that the plot demanded a more human villain (because the Archdemon wasnt interesting enough) and Loghain was crowbared in to fill that role.

Loghain was more a misguided general that was paranoid about a new Orlesian occupation than a villain. If anything, Howe was the human villain of the story. He was manipulative and stabbed allies in the back simply to advance himself. Loghain was wrong to betray Cailan, outlaw the Wardens and collude with Tevinter slavers, but everything he did, terrible as it was, was not for his own personal benefit. Howe was a total bastard by comparison. Heck Loghain even went out honorably, regardless of whether you killed him after the duel, or conscripted him into the Grey Wardens.

Yeah, this.

In general, good villains are not "villains", and good antagonists are always supposed to have some relatable and redeeming qualities -- they probably won't outweight their bad qualities and decisions, but they make them human.

I think the best kind of antagonist is the kind of antagonist that, given the right plot and setting, could be the protagonist of their own story. Loghain is a very good example of this (he's even one of the protagonists of the Stolen Throne!): occasionally sympathetic and relatable, but also paranoid, jingoistic, and ruthless. Same with Meredith: she has her (very good) reasons, but her prejudice and paranoia get the better of her. The only problem with her is the red lyrium "indoctrination", which went a bit too over-the-top for my tastes.

Getting a bit off track, but anyway. Point being: many times the only difference between a good protagonist and a good antagonist is the perspective.

[Zatche]

Wulfram wrote...

Villains need to appear a credible threat. Everything else is optional

Ahh. This.

I said something earlier in the thread about the villain needing to be a well developed character. I'm not sure even that is a requirement.  If the villain merely provides a legitimate challenge for the protagonist to overcome, it's done its job. In some cases, a well developed villain may overshadow the characterization of the protagonist(s).

[BouncyFrag]

Looking back Saren is one of my favorites. He looked badass, sounded great, and could even be reasoned with (to an extant). He was much better than the typical big bad that wants to kill everyone and eat the universe because reasons.

[Jaulen]

I don't really know what makes a great villan, just when I find one I like, they are memorable.

Manipulative, intelligent, hint of crazy or 'I just don't GAD anymore', someone you wouldn't think is a villan, and they have to do bad things mainly for personal gain/power.....they should seem gray, but be rather black and white in their reasoning....the ones that at first glance scream at you "Hey! I'm the bad person here!" they are uninteresting. (to me, the difference between a villan and antagonist)

So far my favorite in video games is Kiera from KOTOR2. (I probably murdered the spelling).

[Maiden Crowe]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Maiden Crowe wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

@OP:
I prefer the name "antagonist". If a "villain" deserves the term "villain", they already aren't what I like in antagonists.

Ok if you want to argue semantics then you can change the question to "what makes a great antagonist" but I Loghain still falls firmly under the villain catagory whether you like the term or not. Now you can argue that Loghain isnt an evil person at heart and had "good intentions" however his actions dont reflect this, in fact there seems to be no logical reason why Loghain would have done most of the stuff he did other than the fact that the plot demanded a more human villain (because the Archdemon wasnt interesting enough) and Loghain was crowbared in to fill that role.

I believe I read somewhere that the original plan was to have Loghain corrupted under the influence of the Archdemon and as cliche as it is I would have much rathered they stuck with this plan instead as at least it is somewhat more believable than the crap they ended up going with.

Good intentions don't matter. In fact, a goal "I want as much power as I can grab" is perfectly acceptable for an antagonist. The difference to the "villain" type is that the type I prefer goes about their goal with a grasp of reality, particularly about the pragmatic cost of things they do sacrifice. They may not care about anyone's wellbeing at all, but committing an atrocity has a cost not pertaining to morality, so they wouldn't do that unless they consider the benefit worth the cost. This will limit the "evil" they do.

<snip>

I have no problem with a greedy powermongering antagonist and never claimed there was anything wrong with this but from what I have seen all those making the claim that Loghain is such a "great antagonists" believe that he isnt performing these actions out of greed or malice but rather he was doing what he thought was neccessary to ensure the safety of Ferelden but if we actually look at his actions there is no way I can take the claim seriously, even if we humour the idea that Loghain isnt the patriot he is made out to be and is doing it because he wants as much power as he can grab I still cant see any real benefit or justification for his actions, as far as I am concerned he might as well have started tying helpless maidens to the railway tracks and twirling a handlebar mustache for all his actions mattered.

KaiserShep wrote...

I believe I read somewhere that the original plan was to have Loghain corrupted under the influence of the Archdemon and as cliche as it is I would have much rathered they stuck with this plan instead as at least it is somewhat more believable than the crap they ended up going with.

Basically, proto-Saren? That actually sounds a lot cheaper, because all it's doing now is taking responsibility out of his hands and putting it all on the purely malevolent thing you have to kill. This was something that had adverse effects on the Illusive Man's characterization in ME3. Indoctrination is one of the most problematic elements in Mass Effect, so I'm glad that there was no real equivalent in Dragon Age. 

Never said it was a good alternative, just better than the crap they gave us.

[KristofCoulson]

A great villain is one that you understand and sort of want them to succeed. (sometimes at least)

[Drone223]

A well written one regardless of their motive be it sympathetic, power hungry etc. and having a personality that fits them.

Modifié par Drone223, 05 février 2014 - 09:42 .

[Sifr]

KaiserShep wrote...

Basically, proto-Saren? That actually sounds a lot cheaper, because all it's doing now is taking responsibility out of his hands and putting it all on the purely malevolent thing you have to kill. This was something that had adverse effects on the Illusive Man's characterization in ME3. Indoctrination is one of the most problematic elements in Mass Effect, so I'm glad that there was no real equivalent in Dragon Age.

I agree, that this was one of the major problems of the Illusive Man and Cerberus in ME3, as it reduced the entire organisation from a credible threat to just a bunch of brainwashed and crazy mooks. Instead of being forced to deal with an antagonistic force with a philosophy diametrically opposed to the heroes, Shepard was just dealing with generic bad guys who are doing bad things for ill-defined reasons. (Conversely, I doubt that Kai Leng became an insufferable moustache-twirler because of indoctrination, I suspect he was always irritating like that).

We don't need brainwashing or an artefact of doom to create a good villain. Just give us someone who sincerely believes in their goal, is prepared to do something about it and is charismatic and/or intelligent enough to pull it off. In other words, the same way you'd write any protagonist.

[myahele]

I want a pragmatic ends justify the means ttype. The choices they make are somewhat sensible, but morally questionable.

I want one with a tragic past, but not mopey about. Intelligent, manipulative. That is why I like flemeth, and most recently loghain.

At 1st I didn't like him, but since reading more about him I began to "like" his character. While I don't like what he's done, his reasoning makes sense from a ferelden loyalist POV. He's also a greatly flawed individual.

Until I learn more about flemeth, then its loghain for me.

[Black-Xero]

Maddok900 wrote...

Here are some of the greatest villains,





See what they all have in common? 

An incredible level of intelligence, a distinct and detailed character, and at least a pinch of madness.

These three are so common among the successful villains it is now a stereotype. Still, this method almost never fails to deliver.

The Joker is the only one of the three that I consider to be a great villain but his character is not a villain stereotype.

Modifié par Black-Xero, 06 février 2014 - 05:13 .

[KainD]

Best ''villian'' monologue ever.

Modifié par KainD, 06 février 2014 - 07:44 .

[slimgrin]

KainD wrote...




Best ''villian'' monologue ever.

Borderlands had some of the most annoying dialog I've heard in a game. Like listening to the escapist, without actually being able to escape. Here's a good protagonist:

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

[Maiden Crowe]

myahele wrote...
At 1st I didn't like him, but since reading more about him I began to "like" his character. While I don't like what he's done, his reasoning makes sense from a ferelden loyalist POV.

You see I keep hearing people say this but get no explanation as to why or how Loghain's actions make sense, perhaps somebody can explain it to me.

For instance selling Elves into slavery, how does that make sense from a Ferelden loyalist POV? Poisoning Eamon? Framing the Grey Wardens for what the fans claim was a totally justifyable retreat? What was purpose for these actions?

[myahele]

Elves aren't people in most humans eyes, the night elves helped ferelden during the occupation, but tthir contribution were hidden. What he did was despicable, but from what I remember most nobles didn't care that much when they found out + with the recent elven rebelion where many were killed it would be better to get rid of them, sadly. There's also the issue with purges.

Eamon was popular and the uncle of the formee king. a formidable competitor to the throne and has ties with orlais (eamons wife is orlesian)

He needed a scapegoat, so why not sully the order who's members are gone + it'll make hia retreat look better. Who knows maybe he was planning on making his own grey warden group by torturing Riordan amd raiding thier archives.

Flaws: very paranoid regarding orlais, egotistical and short sighted. he is not a genius and I doubt he planned all of this from the start.

If there was no darkspawn threat I'm pretty sure ferelden will be in a civil war and orlais will swoop in and repeat history.

[coldflame]

A good villain will need David Warner (the English actor not the Australian cricketer) as the voice actor. You get a cookie if you can tell me which villain David has voiced over.

[KaiserShep]

I doubt that there would be civil war. The darkspawn threat was the catalyst for king Cailan's initiative to have a united Ferelden, which was what he feared most. Howe likely saw this situation as an opportunity that was too tempting to pass up, since it would be much harder for people to do anything about his betrayal in Highever, or his sudden occupation of the Arl of Denerim's estate, and he no doubt manipulated Loghain to go the extra mile to ensure that no one gives the Orlesians a free pass into the country.

As for his efforts against the Grey Wardens, I think Loghain simply saw them as just another link to the possible cooperation with Orlais. I'm not totally clear on this, but it seems to me that Loghain not being privy to the details about the order is also at fault here. If he actually knew about the sole purpose of the Wardens contracting the taint in the first place, I doubt he would cast them aside so easily. It's possible that he could use such information to wipe out the order in Ferelden, and establish his own that's loyal to him, but I doubt that was something he had in mind at all.

[SoulRebel_1979]

tcgtqu wrote...

A good villain will need David Warner (the English actor not the Australian cricketer) as the voice actor. You get a cookie if you can tell me which villain David has voiced over.

Too easy dude, Irecnicus is only the best villian EVAH!!!!!!!!!