449 réponses à ce sujet

[Sifr]

Maiden Crowe wrote...

You see I keep hearing people say this but get no explanation as to why or how Loghain's actions make sense, perhaps somebody can explain it to me.

For instance selling Elves into slavery, how does that make sense from a Ferelden loyalist POV? Poisoning Eamon? Framing the Grey Wardens for what the fans claim was a totally justifyable retreat? What was purpose for these actions?

Well, Elves are considered second-class citizens at best and Loghain rationalised it as they desperately needed cash to bankroll the army, not only to fight the Darkspawn but also the civil war raging across Ferelden. I consider this to be probably the least justifiable of his actions, since it's clear from his reaction after being called at the Landsmeet that he knew it was wrong and didn't want his slave-trading coming out.

As for poisoning Eamon, there's are rumours that he was trying to influence Cailan on running the country as well as his foreign policy, leading Loghain to believe that he was vying for power or make Cailan into his puppet. Considering he orchestrates several things whilst trying to put Alistair on the throne without informing him first, I'm still unsure whether or not I trust the man completely or if he doesn't have an agenda of his own. Either way, it seems that Loghain was certain that Eamon was a threat that needed to be taken down for the good of the country.

As for the Grey Wardens, they already had a murky past due to Sophia Dryden trying to enact a coup during the reign of King Arland, making the idea that they'd betray the king not without precedent. Coupled with the large amount of Grey Wardens and Chevaliers that Cailan was calling from Orlais, Loghain probably believed that the Blight was a smokescreen for an invasion attempt.

There's a certain degree of logic to his actions, even if we as the audience know his reasons are completely wrong.

[Vincent Laww]

Loghain fervently believed that he was the only man capable of uniting ferelden and combating the blight. In his mind the end justified the means. He had conviction and resolve. He never questioned his actions. He remained steadfast and after capitulating to the Greywarden he realised the error of his way. The Greywarden disillusioned Loghain's ill-conceived cause. Loghain is a fallen hero. The perfect villain is an enemy that is similar to the protagonist. The Hero of Riverdain, one of the liberators of Ferelden betrayed his former best friend (Maric) and the woman he truly loved (Rowan) by sacrificing their son Cailan. Given enough time a Hero's sensibilities may become askew and in end they become the very thing they originally fought against.

[Angarma]

I'd say David Gaider, because it's an amusing double entendre.

[JJDXB]

An anti-villain. One who's 'evil' isn't so clear cut, one who exemplies the difficulties of morality choices within the game. Someone who trying to save/free people from oppression, or is unfailingly sympathetic to the underdogs of society, or someone who is villainous because he/she has been driven to it through insanity or instability the result of those who we would regularly call 'the good guys'.

Most importantly, one I must defeat and presumably kill not because I must, not because I want to.

Given, however, what we know about crestwood, anti-villainry is unlikely.

Modifié par JBDXB, 06 février 2014 - 08:18 .

[Iakus]

Vincent Laww wrote...

Loghain fervently believed that he was the only man capable of uniting ferelden and combating the blight. In his mind the end justified the means. He had conviction and resolve. He never questioned his actions. He remained steadfast and after capitulating to the Greywarden he realised the error of his way. The Greywarden disillusioned Loghain's ill-conceived cause. Loghain is a fallen hero. The perfect villain is an enemy that is similar to the protagonist. The Hero of Riverdain, one of the liberators of Ferelden betrayed his former best friend (Maric) and the woman he truly loved (Rowan) by sacrificing their son Cailan. Given enough time a Hero's sensibilities may become askew and in end they become the very thing they originally fought against.

Yeah, to me a great villain is one who's motives are understandable, even if their methods are deplorable.

They're the ones who walk up to the Moral Event Horizon, and then cross it.  they are the cautionary tale for the phrase "do whatever it takes"

In short, the best villains are those who could have been heroes, if only they had made different choices.  Or if their personal flaws hadn't consumed them.

[Grieving Natashina]

I do love a complex villain, for certain. I like ones that make me think, or fool me with every step of the way (like in the Usual Suspects.) However, as time as gone on, I enjoy my villains rather bat-guano crazy. Well, they have to be intelligent, but chaotic enough to enjoy their job. I'm sick of brooding villains with deep and tragic histories. Loghain, Meredith and Orsino (he counts on a technicality) all had these deep psychological reasons for what they did. Even the Architech had a complex and darker motivation for his actions. Which is all well and good, but that has been done to death in the last decade or so.

I want a villain that loves his job, with a lot of evil "mwhahaha" to go with it. Someone that has fun being bad and seeks no apologizes for it. No justification, just in it because bad feels good.

Examples:




Here's the "Ted Bundy" type.



Your standard evil magic user type. I can't believe they are bothering with her backstory. She's perfect the way she is!



And, of course, the ones that want to see the world burn.

Edit: Is that too many pics?  I can trim it down if it is, Mods.

Modifié par Starsyn, 06 février 2014 - 09:23 .

[BrotherDragon2]

I think that one of the most remarkable villains we have seen lately has been Adam Scott's portrayal of Jim Moriarty on Sherlock. An absolute monster and mass murderer the creators have had to bring him back from the dead because he's so wildly popular with the fans. I'm not sure exactly why we relate to such an odious creation except that it's so well done that we become interested in what this mad creature will say/do next. He's interesting, he keeps us engaged.
______________________________
"I'm trying to think but nothin' happens-Jerome "Curly" Howard

[AppealToReason]

They'd be a believable hero.

Most of my favourite villains in games and movies have generally been anti-heros because they are the most "human" usually in their motivations. Sometimes you end up almost siding with them but for one or two critical things and thats where they become a villain.

[TEWR]

[quote]Maiden Crowe wrote...

[quote]myahele wrote...
At 1st I didn't like him, but since reading more about him I began to "like" his character. While I don't like what he's done, his reasoning makes sense from a ferelden loyalist POV.[/quote]

You see I keep hearing people say this but get no explanation as to why or how Loghain's actions make sense, perhaps somebody can explain it to me.

For instance selling Elves into slavery,[/quote]

The Bannorn's war, coupled with Howe's embezzling, drained the nation's coffers to the point that selling Elves to make quick and dirty cash would've been seen as a necessary expenditure. Loghain tells you after you recruit him that a few dozen Elves had been shipped out of the Alineage by the time the Warden stopped it and the war chest was 1/3 of the way full. His plan was to replenish the war chest completely, outfit the army as needed, and then supply the remaining Elves in the Alienage so they could fight.

Ideal? No, but not quite as cut-and-dry as people make it to be. Funnily, had he had the Circle on his side as was his original intention he could've used the Lucrosians/Formari to keep the war chest filled perhaps. Yet Wynne screwed that plan over by speaking of matters she knew nothing about.

[quote] Poisoning Eamon?[/quote]

Eamon couldn't be trusted. His close relation to Cailan would've blinded him to reason, coupled with the fact that Loghain may have suspected Isolde of... perhaps pulling Eamon's strings. I can't say the latter is definitely a factor, but it would be consistent. Plus, we see firsthand how Teagan -- who doesn't even spend much time at court but spends a ****load of time with Cailan -- won't even entertain the notion that Cailan killed himself by his foolish actions, so he probably thought Eamon would do the same.

And lo and behold, Eamon does just that!

Logistically, Eamon was poisoned after Ostagar. That's the only way the comments you hear of Loghain being the reason for the victories thus far, Loghain meeting Jowan in Denerim, and so on make sense. Ser Donall's comments to me simply indicate Eamon was sick at the time, which may have allowed the poison to take effect faster.

And then hey, magic ashes cure Eamon of everything!

[quote]Framing the Grey Wardens for what the fans claim was a totally justifyable retreat? What was purpose for these actions?[/quote]

Historical events and contemporary events at Ostagar, from Loghain's perspective, painted the Wardens as Orlesian spies/agents (which prior to the 3rd Blight, they were).

[/quote]

[dragonflight288]

Historical events and contemporary events at Ostagar, from Loghain's perspective, painted the Wardens as Orlesian spies/agents (which prior to the 3rd Blight, they were).

Add in that Loghain personally saw Duncan's predecessor make a deal with the Architect in The Calling that would've doomed all things living and corrupt everyone on the surface with the taint.

[Hellion Rex]

Dobbysaurus wrote...

You can't be a great villain without having a nice, perfect British accent.

The Joker.

[draken-heart]

Just like what makes a great LI: The writing. A poor quality writing will make a good villain bad, like how a good romance (Merrill's and Leliana's) felt somewhat bad when the writing is taken into account.

[Silfren]

eluvianix wrote...

Dobbysaurus wrote...

You can't be a great villain without having a nice, perfect British accent.

The Joker.

Oh come ON.  You're surely not saying that The Joker wouldn't have been 50000% better without a nice Scottish accent.

[Hellion Rex]

dragonflight288 wrote...

Historical events and contemporary events at Ostagar, from Loghain's perspective, painted the Wardens as Orlesian spies/agents (which prior to the 3rd Blight, they were).

Add in that Loghain personally saw Duncan's predecessor make a deal with the Architect in The Calling that would've doomed all things living and corrupt everyone on the surface with the taint.

Loghain was a bad villain.

[Silfren]

eluvianix wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

Historical events and contemporary events at Ostagar, from Loghain's perspective, painted the Wardens as Orlesian spies/agents (which prior to the 3rd Blight, they were).

Add in that Loghain personally saw Duncan's predecessor make a deal with the Architect in The Calling that would've doomed all things living and corrupt everyone on the surface with the taint.

Loghain was a bad villain.

Hoo boy.  TEWR's gonna have a field day.

[dragonflight288]

eluvianix wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

Historical events and contemporary events at Ostagar, from Loghain's perspective, painted the Wardens as Orlesian spies/agents (which prior to the 3rd Blight, they were).

Add in that Loghain personally saw Duncan's predecessor make a deal with the Architect in The Calling that would've doomed all things living and corrupt everyone on the surface with the taint.

Loghain was a bad villain.

I really liked him as a villain. On my last playthrough I let him live, talked with him to try and understand his motivations, took him back to Ostagar for the DLC and listened to him call Wynne out for doing the same thing he did yet she is so judgemental of him, and actually grew to respect him.

I think there's plenty of evidence to have him put to death if you don't like him, but how many people simply dismiss him because of what Alistair thinks or speculates in front of Flemeth's hut?

[TEWR]

eluvianix wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

Historical events and contemporary events at Ostagar, from Loghain's perspective, painted the Wardens as Orlesian spies/agents (which prior to the 3rd Blight, they were).

Add in that Loghain personally saw Duncan's predecessor make a deal with the Architect in The Calling that would've doomed all things living and corrupt everyone on the surface with the taint.

Loghain was a bad villain.

Well, he's no Vayne Solidor or Master Xehanort.

And you're right, he is a bad villain. But I say that because I despise the term "villain". He's a great antagonist.

Your pitiful attempts at firing shots have failed, fool!

[Hellion Rex]

dragonflight288 wrote...


I really liked him as a villain. On my last playthrough I let him live, talked with him to try and understand his motivations, took him back to Ostagar for the DLC and listened to him call Wynne out for doing the same thing he did yet she is so judgemental of him, and actually grew to respect him.

I think there's plenty of evidence to have him put to death if you don't like him, but how many people simply dismiss him because of what Alistair thinks or speculates in front of Flemeth's hut?

See, the thing is that I did not read the Calling prior to playing DAO, and so I didn't quite understand the entirety of the situation before I put him to death the first time. That being said, even knowing now what I didn't then, I still do not think I could forgive his actions.

[Hellion Rex]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Well, he's no Vayne Solidor or Master Xehanort.

And you're right, he is a bad villain. But I say that because I despise the term "villain". He's a great antagonist.

Your pitiful attempts at firing shots have failed, fool!

Antagonist, villain, just different terms to describe a character. Personally, I don't put too much stock in the nuances that differentiate "antagonist" and villain, but for me, he was very black and white, not much grey. He was but a weak stepping stone to me destroying the Archdemon.

[superdeathdealer14]

Anyone who isn't me.

[TEWR]

I still do not think I could forgive his actions.

You don't have to. Letting him live doesn't equate itself to forgiveness. He doesn't forgive himself if you do so, why should you? Think of it as making the most out of him and giving him the harsher punishment.

"It's easy to die for your cause. Some men do it without even knowing. It's so much harder to live with your actions and the weight of them" -- rough paraphrase of something Loghain says.

Your post is something a lot of anti-Loghain people say to his fans. They believe that if you let him live, you're condoning his actions and whatnot (though they use MUCH more volatile language, often to the point of insults). That's not always the case.

[Thomas Andresen]

Antagonist, villain, just different terms to describe a character. Personally, I don't put too much stock in the nuances that differentiate "antagonist" and villain, but for me, he was very black and white, not much grey. He was but a weak stepping stone to me destroying the Archdemon.

To me, "villain" evokes the image of so many clichés, the only thing I can think to say is: "ugh."

Let's stick to antagonist. An antagonist doesn't have to be evil, for the first part, while that is rather implied in the term, "villain."

[Hellion Rex]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I still do not think I could forgive his actions.

You don't have to. Letting him live doesn't equate itself to forgiveness. He doesn't forgive himself if you do so, why should you? Think of it as making the most out of him and giving him the harsher punishment.

"It's easy to die for your cause. Some men do it without even knowing. It's so much harder to live with your actions and the weight of them" -- rough paraphrase of something Loghain says.

Your post is something a lot of anti-Loghain people say to his fans. They believe that if you let him live, you're condoning his actions and whatnot (though they use MUCH more volatile language, often to the point of insults). That's not always the case.

But putting him up against Alistair is where I draw the line. Understand where I am coming from here. Alistair may be have been too driven by revenge, that's not in question. That being said, Alistair had been my greatest friend in the game. However, he had been wronged more than me in regards to Loghain, so I let him make the choice. Make me choose between Loghain and Alistair, and I would pick Alistair every time, without skipping a beat.

[Shya]

Politicians