449 réponses à ce sujet

[HiroVoid]

rasloveszev wrote...

HiroVoid wrote...

rasloveszev wrote...

 Belief that they are the good guys. 

That's why I loved to hate Meridith and Lohgain. They did such awful evil things in the name of  'good' and there was no talking them out of it. 

Loghain'll actually say he regrets a lot of the things he did and feels he needs to atone for them if you spare him. 

He lost his chance at redemption when he used slavery to fund his stupidity. And that's on top of poisoning Eamon, inspiring Uldred's rebellion, and framing the Wardens for Calin's murder. Nope! I let Alistair fight him, and automatically became his excutioner.

I wouldn't blame him for Uldred since all he did there was promise he'd do what he could to grant the mages more freedom in exchange for their assistance, but yeah.  The rest is fine if you want to kill him for.

[rasloveszev]

MassivelyEffective0730 wrote...

rasloveszev wrote...

 Belief that they are the good guys. 

That's why I loved to hate Meridith and Lohgain. They did such awful evil things in the name of  'good' and there was no talking them out of it. 

Awful and evil is subjective. As is good.

So you're okay with slavery and murdering innocent people out of paranoria? 
No, good and bad is not that black and white, but it's not that gray either. 
There are lines most do not cross.

Killing a rapist that couldn't be convicted? Gray area.
Unapologetically enslaving people? Evil.
Falsely accusing innocent mages as blood mages and abusing the use of Tranquility to silence the people you oppress? Evil.

[Mr.House]

Loghain killed innocent people? When?

[The Flying Grey Warden]

Mr.House wrote...

Loghain killed innocent people? When?

All the elves killed by the slavers, all the people howes secret police and coup against the couslands caused, everyone at ostagar arguably,  everyone killed in redcliffe.

Being a complaciant acessory to murder is arguably still being a murder

[Mr.House]

The Flying Grey Warden wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

Loghain killed innocent people? When?

All the elves killed by the slavers, all the people howes secret police and coup against the couslands caused, everyone at ostagar arguably,  everyone killed in redcliffe.

Being a complaciant acessory to murder is arguably still being a murder

Yes because Loghain should be blamed for what other people did with their own free will.

[The Flying Grey Warden]

Mr.House wrote...

The Flying Grey Warden wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

Loghain killed innocent people? When?

All the elves killed by the slavers, all the people howes secret police and coup against the couslands caused, everyone at ostagar arguably,  everyone killed in redcliffe.

Being a complaciant acessory to murder is arguably still being a murder

Yes because Loghain should be blamed for what other people did with their own free will.

What other people did under his orders and with his approval.  We trialed paper pushers of the gestopo whose crime was signing the death papers, held them responsible for the camp operators and triggermen actions as well.
Dont see how its that different. 

[Mr.House]

The Flying Grey Warden wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

The Flying Grey Warden wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

Loghain killed innocent people? When?

All the elves killed by the slavers, all the people howes secret police and coup against the couslands caused, everyone at ostagar arguably,  everyone killed in redcliffe.

Being a complaciant acessory to murder is arguably still being a murder

Yes because Loghain should be blamed for what other people did with their own free will.

What other people did under his orders and with his approval.  We trialed paper pushers of the gestopo whose crime was signing the death papers, held them responsible for the camp operators and triggermen actions as well.
Dont see how its that different. 

You have no evidence Loghain approved what Howe did in the dungion.

[KaiserShep]

Mr.House wrote...
Yes because Loghain should be blamed for what other people did with their own free will.

Actually, he can be in the case of the Tevinter slavers at the alienage. It doesn't matter if they were operating on their own free will, they did so with his approval. Any elves killed as a result of permitting that operation to continue are just as much his responsibility as it is theirs.

Can't say the same exactly for things that happen at Redcliffe and the Arl of Denerim's estate, but it doesn't matter. He's still a traitor that abandoned his king, placing greater priority on his paranoid fear of the Orlesians than stopping the horde of darkspawn. To that end, I suppose a lot of this is to blame on everyone's ignorance of the actual importance of the Grey Wardens, and I suppose the Grey Wardens' insistence on keeping these things secret.

Part of me thinks that if Loghain actually knew the reason why Grey Wardens were necessary to defeat the Blight in the beginning, things might have gone differently, but I suppose that's neither here or there in the end.

Modifié par KaiserShep, 03 février 2014 - 12:09 .

[The Flying Grey Warden]

Mr.House wrote...

The Flying Grey Warden wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

The Flying Grey Warden wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

Loghain killed innocent people? When?

All the elves killed by the slavers, all the people howes secret police and coup against the couslands caused, everyone at ostagar arguably,  everyone killed in redcliffe.

Being a complaciant acessory to murder is arguably still being a murder

Yes because Loghain should be blamed for what other people did with their own free will.

What other people did under his orders and with his approval.  We trialed paper pushers of the gestopo whose crime was signing the death papers, held them responsible for the camp operators and triggermen actions as well.
Dont see how its that different. 

You have no evidence Loghain approved what Howe did in the dungion.

And the slavers? ostagar? the offer to try and take over the circle? the assassination attempts against redcliffe? Are twe tk seriously blame howe for these incidents as well? Or are we going to blame the warden for not wanting to just lay down and die from some tommy waisue look alike.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Ostargar was a tactical retreat. He is no more a murderer for that, than anyother general who has retreated before. People die in war. What Loghain did arguably saved Ferelden, since after Ostagar it still had an army to defend it.

[Br3admax]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Ostargar was a tactical retreat. He is no more a murderer for that, than anyother general who has retreated before. People die in war. What Loghain did arguably saved Ferelden, since after Ostagar it still had an army to defend it.

Except he only saved his men, as in all of Gwyeren's capital's, and even these were not really used as much as any other race. Don't go too far. 

Modifié par Br3ad, 03 février 2014 - 12:11 .

[The Flying Grey Warden]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Ostargar was a tactical retreat. He is no more a murderer for that, than anyother general who has retreated before. People die in war. What Loghain did arguably saved Ferelden, since after Ostagar it still had an army to defend it.

So thats 2/5 crimes with some flimsy excuse, 3/5 without.  
Ill keep to my original opinion thank you. Also godwin is doing the touchdown dance thabks to his law.

[King Cousland]

All villains believe that they're right. But to be a good villain, they have to make you believe that they're right. 

[KaiserShep]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Ostargar was a tactical retreat. He is no more a murderer for that, than anyother general who has retreated before. People die in war. What Loghain did arguably saved Ferelden, since after Ostagar it still had an army to defend it.

The tactic in this case was to cut off any possibility of making nice with Orlais. That's the sole reason why he did that in the first place. But anyway, the notion that he saved Ferelden is wrong. His actions would have doomed it entirely, for the simple fact that wiping out the Grey Warden order would have left the entire nation at the mercy of the Blight, and it would not have ended until any Wardens that manage to escape Loghain or Howe's wrath managed to get to the archdemon themselves. Whether or not he was ignorant of the importance of the Wardens is immaterial at that point. Flemeth did more to save it than he did.

Modifié par KaiserShep, 03 février 2014 - 12:22 .

[Hellion Rex]

I like villains like Kreia. People that make you think and make you question the choices you make in life. Plus, her dialogue is probably some of my most favorite, ever.

[HiroVoid]

eluvianix wrote...

I like villains like Kreia. People that make you think and make you question the choices you make in life. Plus, her dialogue is probably some of my most favorite, ever.

Aside from preferring Obsidian games in general, if there's one thing they really exceed at compared to Bioware, its antagonists.

[Iron Fist]

thats1evildude wrote...

Except that would imply the Warden is the villain. Loghain is firmly in the wrong about his beliefs and will drive the country into destruction without the Warden's presence.

Not necessarily.

Two "heroes" (The Warden/Alistair and Loghain) opposed each other, filling the hero protagonist and hero antagonist roles. Meanwhile, the Archdemon was the villain antagonist of the game.

thats1evildude wrote...

Loghain is, at best, an anti-villain and is listed on TV Tropes as such.

Fair enough.

Modifié par MevenSelas, 03 février 2014 - 12:29 .

[CuriousArtemis]

CommanderJessica wrote...

I think Loghain was a great villain.

He was blinded by what he thought was right and he was very human and relatable.
I think his self-belief and refusal to listen to others made him a very dangerous man, especially because he held so much power and respect.

I 100% agree; I think Loghain is a perfect example of a villain. He is a sympathetic character, and he truly believes that HE is doing the right thing. But he's not, and what he does is so horrific and wrong, and he's definitely the Warden's antagonist for most of the game.

BW did an interesting thing by making him a potentially playable character towards the end of the game, but it's the kind of decision a certain "kind" of Warden would make (not the kind, hero type) so, that's pretty neat.

[KaiserShep]

I always considered Howe to be the second tier villain of the story. He was begging for the murder knife since the beginning.

[EmperorSahlertz]

KaiserShep wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Ostargar was a tactical retreat. He is no more a murderer for that, than anyother general who has retreated before. People die in war. What Loghain did arguably saved Ferelden, since after Ostagar it still had an army to defend it.

The tactic in this case was to cut off any possibility of making nice with Orlais. That's the sole reason why he did that in the first place. But anyway, the notion that he saved Ferelden is wrong. His actions would have doomed it entirely, for the simple fact that wiping out the Grey Warden order would have left the entire nation at the mercy of the Blight, and it would not have ended until any Wardens that manage to escape Loghain or Howe's wrath managed to get to the archdemon themselves. Whether or not he was ignorant of the importance of the Wardens is immaterial at that point. Flemeth did more to save it than he did.

Had Loghain charged in at Ostargar, the ENTIRE Ferelden army would ahve been destroyed. His actions saved at least half of it. This half is what later saved Ferelden. Ergo, his actions saved Ferelden.

[Gwydden]

He/she must have read the Evil Overlord's List.

[Hellion Rex]

HiroVoid wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

I like villains like Kreia. People that make you think and make you question the choices you make in life. Plus, her dialogue is probably some of my most favorite, ever.

Aside from preferring Obsidian games in general, if there's one thing they really exceed at compared to Bioware, its antagonists.

Despite how much flak DA2 gets, I did actually like Meredith as an antagonist. I particularly enjoyed listening to her dialogue/ramblings as her mind began to spiral out of control.

[KingRoxas]

MKDAWUSS wrote...

The best villains.... aren't villains.