526 réponses à ce sujet

[AlanC9]

iakus wrote...

Given "Disney" has been the trolls' refuge to attack anyone who doesn't like the endings fro the past two years, I think it's understandable that people take umbrage at it's use at this point.

I suppose the closest parallel on your side would be someone tossing around "grimdark," which is equally unhelpful but doesn't seem to be quite as annoying to the targets.

Modifié par AlanC9, 04 février 2014 - 04:39 .

[Iakus]

AlanC9 wrote...

iakus wrote...

Given "Disney" has been the trolls' refuge to attack anyone who doesn't like the endings fro the past two years, I think it's understandable that people take umbrage at it's use at this point.

I suppose the closest parallel on ypur side would be someone tossing around "grimdark." 

That would likely be accurate yes.

And I confess I've used it in the past, especially early on, though I do try to curb myself of it.

[Mcfly616]

Umm Bambi had a happy ending. Just sayin'. The film had it's sad bits but the ending is certainly a happy cheery high-point. That was my favorite Disney film back in the day. And remains one of the best. Why? Because it's a ballsy cartoon for it's time.

Modifié par Mcfly616, 04 février 2014 - 04:50 .

[Mcfly616]

Not sure where we got into this Disney "film" discussion anyway. I only suggested to look to Disney "games".

[Redbelle]

CronoDragoon wrote...

Mcfly616 wrote...
Take your bliss and find it somewhere else. I want a well-done and polished game.

Not mutually exclusive at all, just to be clear.

I think we found out how far such 'cheese' gets us. (Citadel DLC)

....Near-universal praise?

Sounds like their are still people who miss the point.

Bioware need to give their audiences the wide gamut of the emotional spectrum!

Okay, before you say, yes, that's an overexaggeration. The endings just need to differentiate themselves from total victory, to total defeat, and then have that middle ground for other endings

But the endings of the original,and the ECDLC ending's were universally bad because they neither plucked at the gamers heartstrings in the way the Citadel DLC ending did, by recognising that the adventure of ME was coming to an end.

Nor did they embrace the gamer as the driving force of the game's progression, instead shooing the gamer away so it could indulge in self centred hyberbole so that it could tell itself that it was being....... profound. (But instead, just tripped over itself and fell on it's face).

Simply put, ME is a game that centre's on interactation and character. Citadel DLC's ending had character after a huuuuge amount of interaction. The original ending's didn't.

For all Citadels cheese there was a clear love of character in that DLC. The character's never got hidden behind events and never let their peckers down. Citadel DLC might not, tonally, be how I'd want to see the entireity of ME4 go down..... But after the dirge that was ME3, it's lighthearted, quick on it's feet plot and pacing made for a breath of fresh air after all the despair and gloom that got put into the main campaign.

Modifié par Redbelle, 04 février 2014 - 04:53 .

[Iakus]

^ All of this

[Kel Riever]

@McFly:  Well, Bambi comes up because mom dies. I.e. not a happy movie. So, yes, it has a happy ending. Anyway, like I said, no need to take it personally McFly. I did clarify there are those who are mindless pro-ending lovers. I didn't accuse you of that. And there really is no need to accuse anyone because, well, they reveal themselves. I will mention a certain Auld Wulf of a long time ago, because, well, he was special.....

But I don't really think anything I said about Disney disagrees with you. 'Disney films' was a term, meant to be insulting, used by mindless pro-enders to clean slate wipe away critical, and often legitimately critical, arguments about the ending. Personally, I think if you buy something, it gives you the right to b**ch about it. In fact, if you didn't buy it, you have that same right.

Ending lovers are not better people than ending haters because they have (pardon my phrasing, this is how I'd say it) 'realistic expectations' or somesuch. The bottom line is, at least for me, if a product sucks, and I do think this one did, I'm going to say so and why. And I'm going to use arguments that go beyond individual opinion to draw comparissons.

But you know, as I've always said, just because something is bad, it doesn't mean someone shouldn't like it. Ad nauseum arguement...I like the Underworld movies. They are atrocious. Just because I like them does not make them good movies. They are candy and that's that. Plus, really, why shouldn't they be made? They make more money than some 'good' films. But I'm not going to go around calling people 'unimaginative' or 'too negative' or some other condescending phrase just because they actually point out that they are bad movies.

Well, I won't right up until the point that they start saying dumb, insulting things. Then it's game on!

Modifié par Kel Riever, 04 février 2014 - 04:57 .

[Mcfly616]

CronoDragoon wrote...

Mcfly616 wrote...
Take your bliss and find it somewhere else. I want a well-done and polished game.

Not mutually exclusive at all, just to be clear.

I think we found out how far such 'cheese' gets us. (Citadel DLC)

....Near-universal praise?

 


Never said they were mutually exclusive. However, I'll take the latter over the former. The latter is necessary in order to be a good game. The former is not.


"near-universal"? Come on now.  There's a number of good lengthy threads on why the Citadel DLC is a completely pointless and immersion-breaking experience. (I actually loved the DLC. However, it was a DLC. It wasn't some part of the main story that was to be taken completely seriously.) 

Quality cheese. If thats what gets praised, god help the next game.

[Iakus]

Mcfly616 wrote...

Quality cheese. If thats what gets praised, god help the next game.

"Quality cheese" is at least still quality

[Kel Riever]

Again, cheese is a term, basically, meant to refer to something that isn't good. Cheese and quality are disparate. If something is quality, it will be good regardless of how it ends.

It is always why I make the distinction between happy/not happy endings and good endings. Preference does not dictate quality. You can have a quality product with an unhappy ending. Mass Effect 3 isn't it.

[Mcfly616]

Redbelle wrote...


But the endings of the original,and the ECDLC ending's were universally bad because they neither plucked at the gamers heartstrings in the way the Citadel DLC ending did, by recognising that the adventure of ME was coming to an end.

Speak for yourself. Tugged at my heartstrings just fine. Honestly, if you didn't realize it was coming to an end while the whole world is on fire all around you, as you completing the mission you set out to do, I'm not sure what the tell you. 

Simply put, ME is a game that centre's on interactation and character.

 

Pretty sure my "character" was "interacting" up until the final cutscene started playing, so...

[CronoDragoon]

Mcfly616 wrote...
Never said they were mutually exclusive. However, I'll take the latter over the former. The latter is necessary in order to be a good game. The former is not.

You implied they were by saying "bliss" should not be a part of Mass Effect, and that someone should "go somewhere else" to find it. But now that you've clarified that you are saying "bliss or sadness isn't important next to quality" then fine.

"near-universal"? Come on now.  There's a number of good lengthy threads on why the Citadel DLC is a completely pointless and immersion-breaking experience.

Not really, not compared to the amount of threads upon release from people who loved it and/or didn't care about immersion. Shall we dig through the Citadel review thread?

[wright1978]

jetblack01 wrote...

So my promise to any game developer is i will preorder nothing until i hear about the ending and i will not buy any more forced death endings. I dont want a depressing end of my games, there´s enough of that in real life. 

Very close to my stance, where i'll need some kind of kind of hint at variety of protaganist's fate before rpg purchase. I have zero tolerance for choice based RPG's that think removing all positive choice regarding the protaganist's fate is cool and edgy. Happy for bittersweet and happy for choice of survival to have negative choices but i don't want core aspect of the ending forced in this manner.

[Mcfly616]

No such thing as "quality cheese"? Not sure where you're from.

[Iakus]

Kel Riever wrote...

Again, cheese is a term, basically, meant to refer to something that isn't good. Cheese and quality are disparate. If something is quality, it will be good regardless of how it ends.

A good feta is still quality

[Mcfly616]

CronoDragoon wrote...

Mcfly616 wrote...
Never said they were mutually exclusive. However, I'll take the latter over the former. The latter is necessary in order to be a good game. The former is not.

You implied they were by saying "bliss" should not be a part of Mass Effect, and that someone should "go somewhere else" to find it. But now that you've clarified that you are saying "bliss or sadness isn't important next to quality" then fine.

"near-universal"? Come on now.  There's a number of good lengthy threads on why the Citadel DLC is a completely pointless and immersion-breaking experience.

Not really, not compared to the amount of threads upon release from people who loved it and/or didn't care about immersion. Shall we dig through the Citadel review thread?

I was not implying "bliss" shouldn't be apart of Mass Effect. I literally said "take YOUR bliss....", as in that guys implied "type" of bliss.


And I'm not the one that said the term "near universal". I don't need to defend it. I can list a good half dozen threads with multiple pages with numerous people all taking their shots at the Citadel DLC. If it were near universally praised, such a quantity of this type of that type of thread would not exist.

[Kel Riever]

Mcfly616 wrote...

No such thing as "quality cheese"? Not sure where you're from.

Yes you do.  You know what I am talking about.  Don't be silly.  'Quality' cheese is saying like a really 'Good' bad movie...

Unless you were talking about what is in the supermarket.  I like a good Brie.

[CronoDragoon]

Mcfly616 wrote...
And I'm not the one that said the term "near universal". I don't need to defend it. I can list a good half dozen threads with multiple pages with numerous people all taking their shots at the Citadel DLC. If it were near universally praised, such a quantity of this type of that type of thread would not exist.

You realize that a half-dozen is six people? So let's count the positive threads and work out a percentage. I'm betting it's over 90%, which is as near-universal as video game opinions get.

[Kel Riever]

CronoDragoon wrote...

Mcfly616 wrote...
And I'm not the one that said the term "near universal". I don't need to defend it. I can list a good half dozen threads with multiple pages with numerous people all taking their shots at the Citadel DLC. If it were near universally praised, such a quantity of this type of that type of thread would not exist.

You realize that a half-dozen is six people? So let's count the positive threads and work out a percentage. I'm betting it's over 90%, which is as near-universal as video game opinions get.

Don't even start the statistics arguement Crono...because that part has nothing to do with McFly.

But it DOES have to do with BioWare reps saying really ridiculous things about 'the vocal minority' and the secret spreadsheets that prove statistics about that minority...that they can never show us.

You know, the mayor of Sochi says there are no gays in his city.  Just because he can't prove it with statistics that people can independently verify doesn't mean he's lying....

[Mcfly616]

Whenever someone brings up squadmate interaction or says BW forgot about our squadmates at the end of ME3, as their reasoning for not liking the ending....I just laugh. What'd you want a tea party in the Catalyst Chamber? Maybe you forgot that everybody just had their moments to say what they needed to say at the forward operating base before the last push....


Sure, the characters were cool. But Mass Effect was never about the characters. Like, ever. It was about the Reapers (and Shepard's fight to stop them). Always has been. And the ending reflected that appropriately.

[Redbelle]

Mcfly616 wrote...

Redbelle wrote...


But the endings of the original,and the ECDLC ending's were universally bad because they neither plucked at the gamers heartstrings in the way the Citadel DLC ending did, by recognising that the adventure of ME was coming to an end.

Speak for yourself. Tugged at my heartstrings just fine. Honestly, if you didn't realize it was coming to an end while the whole world is on fire all around you, as you completing the mission you set out to do, I'm not sure what the tell you. 

Simply put, ME is a game that centre's on interactation and character.

 

Pretty sure my "character" was "interacting" up until the final cutscene started playing, so...

Interacting? With a slow walk?

I'll grant you that counts as interaction....... but the last piece of interaction with the game...... was a slow walk?

That like going from Phaser fight on Star Trek, to seeing Jolene Blalock chopping carrots as 'what she contributes' in the final episode.

[dragonflight288]

Bioware, I promise you.....

that I'm currently enjoying playing the trilogy again and I've been convinced to buy Dragon Age Inquisition so you can keep expecting business from me.

[Mcfly616]

So I said half dozen? So what, I'm sure I can find more if I actually bothered looking. And you know that it's not just one person commenting on their own thread, don't you? Don't be coy, dude. Plenty of people commenting on said threads. Not "half a dozen". DERP

[CronoDragoon]

Kel Riever wrote...
Don't even start the statistics arguement Crono...because that part has nothing to do with McFly.

I'm not sure what you mean. He disagreed with something I said regarding statistics so it certainly does have to do with him.

But it DOES have to do with BioWare reps saying really ridiculous things about 'the vocal minority' and the secret spreadsheets that prove statistics about that minority...that they can never show us.

I'm willing to bet the statistics are right, but that BW was intentionally quoting irrelevant statistics for the argument, and thereby being misleading. It's borderline self-evident that those asking for new endings were the minority of the fanbase. The relevant stat is the % asking for new endings *among those giving feedback*.