526 réponses à ce sujet

[Clayless]

StreetMagic wrote...

Sacrifice is such a stupid word to use in a war context. Only politicians and ****** grandmas who wave around flags and chant "USA! USA!" talk like that. Soldiers emphasize killing. Not dying. There's no way to make it noble.

"The object of war is not to die for your country but to make the other bastard die for his" - George Patton

Good thing it wasn't a war, and most importantly, it was a fictional space opera.

Modifié par Robosexual, 04 février 2014 - 12:50 .

[Clayless]

StreetMagic wrote...

Robosexual wrote...

StreetMagic wrote...

Sacrifice is such a stupid word to use in a war context. Only politicians and ****** grandmas who wave around flags and chant "USA! USA!" talk like that. Soldiers emphasize killing. Not dying. There's no way to make it noble.

"The object of war is not to die for your country but to make the other bastard die for his" - George Patton

Good thing it wasn't a war, and most importantly, it was a fictional space opera.

If it isn't a war, then it's as Leviathan says: A harvest.

All the more reason to not sacrifice for them. Do you see cows willingly giving their throats at a slaughterhouse? They'd fight back if they could. And that's all we are. Cattle.

Refuse then.

[Clayless]

StreetMagic wrote...

Robosexual wrote...

Refuse then.

That's more retarded than anything. Not my cup of tea. I choose destroy. As far as I know, Shepard didn't die or "sacrifice". Until someone with authority tells me otherwise, I have to go on that. It's better than believing they're screwing with me. I don't think Bioware is that devious.

Pretty sure he walked towards the explosion whilst being near death.

Like he was sacrificing himself or something.

[GreyLycanTrope]

Robosexual wrote...
Or I've seen a lot of stories being told.

Assuming you haven't read the books, see the next Hunger Games movie? Do you think it's going to be sunshine and rainbows or do you think it's going to be dark with many people dying and probably not that happy an end?

If you predict right then we better dress you up in robes and put you in a shrine, because clearly you can predict the future like something from a greek myth.

Your assertion that this could be figured out strictly via your first encounter with Sovereign is what's laughable. If you really had seen a lot of stories, villain boasting is probably the least credible source for you to base your predictions on. Nevermind that sacrifice being played up as a major theme wasn't even done until the third game, and even then there could have literally been several ways it could have been played that were far less contrived and unfulfilling.

Modifié par Greylycantrope, 04 février 2014 - 01:07 .

[Iakus]

Robosexual wrote...

Refuse then.

"Lottery in June, corn be heavy soon"

[Gkonone]

Massa FX wrote...

OP: In time you'll recover. ~ 1 year or so from now, you still won't understand the "why" it ended this way, but it'll hurt less.

Welcome to BSN!

The hurt has been replaced with indifference, not sure if that's better for Bioware.
If Bioware decides to pull this 'artistic deus ex machina integrity' crap again I'm done with the franchise.
Well, actually, I'm done with it, for now anyway.

[Clayless]

Greylycantrope wrote...

Robosexual wrote...
Or I've seen a lot of stories being told.

Assuming you haven't read the books, see the next Hunger Games movie? Do you think it's going to be sunshine and rainbows or do you think it's going to be dark with many people dying and probably not that happy an end?

If you predict right then we better dress you up in robes and put you in a shrine, because clearly you can predict the future like something from a greek myth.

You're assertion that this could be figured out strictly via your first encounter with Sovreign is what's laughable. If you really had seen a lot of stories, villain boasting is probably the least creadible source for you to base your predictions on. Nevermind that sacrifice being played up as a major theme wasn't even done until the third game, adn even then there could have literally been several ways it could have played it that were far less contrived and unfulfilling.

There's villian boasting, and then there's the revelation they're massively more advanced, they've been setting a trap for the galaxy, they've done it successfully for eons, and they have enough numbers to darken the sky of every world.

Sovereign says a lot of things to elevate him and the Reapers to godhood, the most imporant being the fact they've successfully destroyed countless advanced civilisations and there's a lot of Reapers. Sure, if you ignored that, it might come as a shock that the series ended with the sacrifice of a character named "Shepard", but if you picked up on that and the many clues throughout the series, it really shouldn't have.

[Dean_the_Young]

Reading this last page, I guess I'm confused what there's a dispute about.

I figured that Shepard would beat the Reapers since ME was always established as being a trilogy about Shepard, the main plot was Shepard's struggle in overcoming the threat of the Reapers, and I figured there would be sacrifices along the way because ME1 made Virmire a success and a selling point of the overall narrative. Given other Bioware game endings, I also more or less expected Shepard dying in the process to be in the cards.

Meta? Yes. But predictable well in advance? Sure.

[Dean_the_Young]

StreetMagic wrote...

Sacrifice is such a stupid word to use in a war context. Only politicians and ****** grandmas who wave around flags and chant "USA! USA!" talk like that. Soldiers emphasize killing. Not dying. There's no way to make it noble.

"The object of war is not to die for your country but to make the other bastard die for his" - George Patton

Despite being neither a politician or a ****** grandma, I'll just point out that sacrifice when used about the military doesn't refer solely to dying. That's the Ultimate Sacrifice, sure, but it hardly eclipses the other sorts of things that are given up while being a soldier. Time is a big one- time with family, time for one's self, time to build one's greater career or pursue personal interests. Simply all the time invested in building up and maintaining someone as a soldier, which could have been spent on just about anything else.

I believe it was Napoleon who said that you can provide more of any resource except for time. Well, soldiers certainly sacrifice a lot of time for the needs of the military.

[Clayless]

StreetMagic wrote...

And yet those countless civilizations managed to get the Crucible into this cycle. The crucible plot was meant to instill some hope. Not necessarily say you need to sacrifice. You have a choice to sacrifice if you want to join the Catalyst's mission or take his place. "Destroy" however isn't a sacrifice. It's a completely different verb.

It's cool that you want to uphold the worth of your own choices, but it's annoying if you try to speak authoritatively on everyone else's playthrough. Be happy with yourself and leave the rest of us out of it.

"That wasn't sacrifice that was him being loco."

AKA

Not an answer.

If you don't want someone sacrificing themselves to be known as a sacrifice, you're going to have to come up with a better answer than headcanon.

[Mcfly616]

I'm pretty sure there's been plenty of soldiers who have literally sacrificed themselves for their comrades. Like getting in the line of fire and taking a bullet for someone or covering a grenade so the rest of their troops don't get hit. Seems pretty noble to me.

Modifié par Mcfly616, 04 février 2014 - 01:37 .

[Clayless]

StreetMagic wrote...

Robosexual wrote...

"That wasn't sacrifice that was him being loco."

AKA

Not an answer.

If you don't want someone sacrificing themselves to be known as a sacrifice, you're going to have to come up with a better answer than headcanon.

It is an answer. If you don't like the answer, that's another thing. Also, I don't give a **** if you don't like it. But it is an answer nonetheless. It's absolutely integral to how I see an aggressively minded Shepard.

An answer doesn't have anthing to do with whether or not I like it, it's to do with whether or not it acknowledges reality instead of headcanon.

Yours is headcanon. It actually tries to ignore events in the game. That has nothing to do with me "not liking it", don't get confused there.

[von uber]

Given sheps implants and upgrades that crappy little explosion isnt going to scratch her, injured or not.
Anyway op, shep survives (in 1 and sort of in another). What's the problem.

[Mcfly616]

Definitions with religious content aside:

"Sacrifice - an act of giving up something valued for the sake of something else regarded as more important or worthy."


Shepard can choose to Destroy while being well aware that he will most likely die. He chooses to give up his own life because he believes wiping out the Reapers is more important than his own life.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Mcfly616 wrote...

Definitions with religious content aside:

"Sacrifice - an act of giving up something valued for the sake of something else regarded as more important or worthy."


Shepard can choose to Destroy while being well aware that he will most likely die. He chooses to give up his own life because he believes wiping out the Reapers is more important than his own life.

That's a very subjective idea based on a perspective that isn't universally shared.

So it's no more a sacrifice than it is a leap of logic that shooting a pipe might just be an avenue of venting frustration.

[dreamgazer]

Robo, do you still believe BioWare included the breath scene---the "most difficult" thing to obtain in Mass Effect 3---as a way of confirming Shepard's death?

[Mcfly616]

StreetMagic wrote...

Mcfly616 wrote...

I'm pretty sure there's been plenty of soldiers who have literally sacrificed themselves for their comrades. Like taking a bullet, or covering a grenade. Seems pretty noble to me.

Nobility in a bubble maybe. The guy across the field may be doing the same for his comrades too. He's also noble in his own little world. But are they still noble when shooting at each other? Or maybe they're finaly noble when they're old men and hugging each other and meeting each other's grandkids.

Eh.. Probably all out of the scope of this thread. War is a giant clusterf*ck. I wouldn't put any of it on a pedestal. Probably a good idea to win though, if you're tossed into one.

you're confused. Nobody denies that war is hell. However, you're saying that nobility does not exist in war. And that's just straight up false. Does one good deed make someone a good person? Hardly. Nor does one noble act make a noble man. That doesn't change the fact that such acts occur. Some of the most profound acts of nobility happen in times of war.

Regardless, nobility is not required in order to make a sacrifice.

Modifié par Mcfly616, 04 février 2014 - 01:54 .

[Clayless]

StreetMagic wrote...

Robosexual wrote...

An answer doesn't have anthing to do with whether or not I like it, it's to do with whether or not it acknowledges reality instead of headcanon.

Yours is headcanon. It actually tries to ignore events in the game. That has nothing to do with me "not liking it", don't get confused there.

Headcanon? You're the one telling everyone they sacrificed their lives, when millions of us chose destroy and had high EMS. There's no sacrifice in those cases. Unless, like I said, Bioware is just screwing with everyone. But personally, I'm not big on conspiracies.

Feel free to have last word, but I don't think we have anything left to say to each other.

"The energy released from the Crucible will destroy the mass relays. By the way you happen to be standing on a mass relay".

Not sacrifice, apparently.