301 réponses à ce sujet

[AutumnWitch]

Think about this. (I will refer to Hawke as "she" as I played her as female, so don't get offended please)

She did not save her sister.

She did not salvage the relationship with her brother.

She did not save her mother.

She most likely brought war to The Free Marches due to TWO her actions.

1. Killing the Arishok.

2. Killing (and stealing from) a high ranking Orlesian noble. (Duke Prosper)

Giving the means to Flemeth (a notorious apostate) to save herself from destruction by taking part of Flemeth's soul to the Dalish.

Helping a rogue Mage/Grey Warden blow up a Chantry building killing a Grand Cleric Elthina which leads to a HUGE war betweem Mages / Templars / Chantry.

Providing the means of a decorated Templar Knight Commander (Merrideth) to get her hands on a special lyruim idol that eventually made her insane and led to her death.

Perhaps releasing an ancient original Tevinter Magister (Corypheus) upon Thedas who might be responsible for the tear in the veil and all the chaos there of.

Perhaps her venture into the deep roads led the world to discovering Red Lyrium thus the problems that caused within the Templar order.

And tragically all of this occurred because she thought she was doing the right thing. Even when trying to do the right thing, she might be indirectly responsible for the needless death of thousands. Can you imagine the guilt she is carrying? And what is so tragic, if put in the same situation, would anyone do anything different? She must feel like the personification of Sisyphus.

No wonder Cassandra was looking for her.

Let's hope our Inquisitor fairs better with her/his decisions eh?

[Veruin]

Hawke pretty much failed because the plot demanded Hawke fail.

[Heimdall]

My Hawke and Carver got along well enough in the end. And I don't think killing the Arishok in a Qun sanctioned duel would be an act of war.

Modifié par Lord Aesir, 03 février 2014 - 10:05 .

[SgtSteel91]

I know my Hawke managed to save his sister from being killed by the Templars.

But yeah, Hawke's position is kinda similar to the protagonist of Nier, in that the protagonist tries his very best to do what he feels is right and protect his loved one and friends and just keeps unintentionally messing it up for the rest of the world most of the time.

Modifié par SgtSteel91, 03 février 2014 - 10:08 .

[SgtSteel91]

Lord Aesir wrote...

My Hawke and Carver got along well enough in the end. And I don't think killing the Arishok in a Qun sanctioned duel would be an act of war.

If anything it made him a respected individual among the Qunari.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

My Hawke had very good relationships with their surviving sibling.

War was coming to the Free Marshes anyway due to the Arishok. Hawke just delayed it.

Orlais has no reason to wage war with the Free Marshes due to what happened at the Prosper Manor.

Depending on what Flemeth will do, Hawke saving her is neither good nor bad right now.

Anders blows up Chantry whether you help or not.

Hawke is very indirectly connected to Meredith getting the idol. That's Bartrand's fault. Who knows what they would do with it if he didn't betray Hawke and Varric.

Corypheus was near being broken out anyway by that Grey Warden.

Again, who knows what would have happened if Bartrand didn't sell the red lyrium idol and assuming location of the Thaig to Meredith.

[SgtSteel91]

You could also argue with Anders about not helping him and even tell the Grand Cleric and Cullen about what Anders is doing. So it's not like Hawke didn't do anything to stop Anders (and even then you can kill Anders after he does the deed).

[Alex109222]

Eh - I convinced Bethany that all the other mages in Kirkwall were blood-mages (because they were, come on, Orsino was enough for me to wipe them out, also the mother)

I gave Isabella to the Qunari because she ruined everything for everyone for no good reason (maybe she has one, I wasn't listening and wasn't invested in her)

Refused to help Anders and killed him. He became insufferable in DA:2 and so did Justice, those guys were awesome in Awakening, now they're just chaotic.

Didn't play the DLC.

Became the new Viscount with a Grey Warden sibling. Think my Hawke's got a pretty good thing going on.

Don't hate the player, had the game.

[TK514]

Huh. Most of these don't apply to my Hawke, and of those that do, some of them are just random chance being random, and don't make him particularly tragic.

True, Carver got hit by an Ogre, but there wasn't anything Hawke could have done about it.
The same with Liandra. Her death was completely random.

He saved Kirkwall from the Qunari. If they attack the Free Marches, it will be because they were going to do so anyway, not because of anything Hawke did. If anything, his actions in returning the Tome and saving the list (intentional or not) would mitigate any potential Qunari response.

The Orlesians, on the other hand, probably won't be in a position to invade anyone for a while, even if outright Civil War doesn't break out.

Since we don't know Flemeth's motives, nor the means she intends to use to achieve them, it's impossible to call this any more a tragic event than when my Warden refused to kill her for Morrigan.

Hawke didn't assist Anders. He was as much a victim of the abomination's treachery as the Templars and the Mages.

He also didn't provide the means for Meredith to get her hands on the idol, anymore than anyone not named Bertrand in the expedition did. Bertrand and Meredith are wholly responsible for that.

Corypheus was going to get out eventually, regardless of Hawke showing up. What Hawke did was prevent a lot of demons from getting free and either killing a powerful Ancient Magister or depriving one of its original, and clearly powerful, body.

The Red Lyrium issue is the same as the Idol. The Tethras Expedition was going to happen eventually, Hawke or not. Hawke made it happen faster, and made it go more smoothly, but it was going to happen regardless. As such, Red Lyrium would have been found eventually anyway.

Would any or all of those things happened exactly as they did without Hawke's presence? Probably not. But that doesn't make him responsible for them, or even particularly tragic. It just means he was part of the events.

Two guys are about to walk out the door. Guy 1 stops Guy 2 ands asks a question. They talk for a minute. Guy 2 then walks out the door and gets hit by a car. Is that Guy1's fault? Of course not, it was the fault of the driver of the car and maybe Guy 2. Guy 1 was part of the series of events that led up to the tragedy, but he's not at fault, nor should he feel any particular guilt. No different with Hawke.

Modifié par TK514, 03 février 2014 - 10:33 .

[leaguer of one]

Female dalish warden who romances Alistar unhardened and did not take the dark ritual says hi.

[leaguer of one]

Alex109222 wrote...

Eh - I convinced Bethany that all the other mages in Kirkwall were blood-mages (because they were, come on, Orsino was enough for me to wipe them out, also the mother)

I gave Isabella to the Qunari because she ruined everything for everyone for no good reason (maybe she has one, I wasn't listening and wasn't invested in her)

Refused to help Anders and killed him. He became insufferable in DA:2 and so did Justice, those guys were awesome in Awakening, now they're just chaotic.

Didn't play the DLC.

Became the new Viscount with a Grey Warden sibling. Think my Hawke's got a pretty good thing going on.

Don't hate the player, had the game.

Orsino's issue was that he was knew about blood mages and protected them from Meredith, not that he was a blood mage. 

[leaguer of one]

Veruin wrote...

Hawke pretty much failed because the plot demanded Hawke fail.

And the problem with that is? The entire issue is based on the actions of other peoples. Your say the mc should control the hearts of men?

[Vulpe]

I would say that the most tragic hero in the setting up to date is Loghain.He transformed from almost nothing into a hero,an eliberator and he sacrificed his happiness in the process.Later in life he fell from grace and became a shadow of his former self, thus becoming something worse than a poacher...he almost became a traitor and almost destroyed the country he sacrificied his life and happiness for. I might also add than in some peoples lore, he ends up executed without a trial in front of men and women he commanded and that respected him, people that might have not lived if it wasn't for him and that in the end hated and/or pitied him.

I think he is a better candidate to the "Biggest Tragic Hero Ever ( in Thedas )" title.

Modifié par JulianWellpit, 03 février 2014 - 10:38 .

[leaguer of one]

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

My Hawke had very good relationships with their surviving sibling.

War was coming to the Free Marshes anyway due to the Arishok. Hawke just delayed it.

.

And that has nothing to do with Hawk. Orlais has it own civil war to deal with.

[Veruin]

leaguer of one wrote...
And the problem with that is? The entire issue is based on the actions of other peoples. Your say the mc should control the hearts of men?

I didn't say that at all...It sounds like you want to nitpick and start something.

[leaguer of one]

Veruin wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...
And the problem with that is? The entire issue is based on the actions of other peoples. Your say the mc should control the hearts of men?

I didn't say that at all...It sounds like you want to nitpick and start something.

Sorry. It's just that I'm tired of people whining about it.

[Dabrikishaw]

I can't see Hawke as tragic hero because he just has a severe case of bad luck. Even most of the stuff he had a hand in didn't need his involvement to allow some of the worse things to occur.

[thats1evildude]

AutumnWitch wrote...

1. Killing the Arishok.

This statement would imply that the qunari were not already planning war to begin with. The death of the Arishok will not alter those plans; if anything, it might slightly delay their invasion, since the qunari have lost one of their strongest warriors and military leaders.

AutumnWitch wrote...

2. Killing (and stealing from) a high ranking Orlesian noble. (Duke Prosper)

An incident that is ultimately swept under the rug because it would embarrass the Empress, who has lots of other headaches to deal with. Not particularly worrisome.

[drake heath]

Hawke was a foolish puppet whose entire life consisted of being around and doing the bidding of far more important people, basically just being strung along by the plot with no impact or relevance.

Hawke could have literally been anyone, it would not have made a difference, Hawke could have died in Lothering and nothing would have changed.

I hope he ends up dead in a ditch, a pointless death for a pointless protagonist.

[Heimdall]

Actually, I imagine that without Hawke to bring the idol out of the Deeproads or bring her companions into contact with one another, a few things would have gone quite differently.

1. Anders would have been run out of Kirkwall years ago without Varric and an amiable guard captain looking after him, or he would have just lost it that much sooner and gone out in a blaze of glory and bloody Templar bits.

2. The Arishok's coup, though inevitably short lived, could have triggered the Qunari invasion we've been receiving vague hints about without Hawke to put a stop to it.

3. Without the idol, Meredith might have been a bit less paranoid about blood mages.

4. Corypheus' Carta would have managed to take down the Hawke sibling at some point and set him free in his full power...

So yes, Hawke made a difference, she just wasn't really in control of whether it was a good difference or not.

[Wiggs Magee]

Eh... from a a lot of complaints that i've heard from people about the game this has been one of the bigger ones
That Hawke in the long term fails in a lot of goals throughout the game, mainly the ones OP has mentioned.
For me personally i'll admit I'm not a big fan of the majority of your work seeming fruitless but i suppose nice change of pace to see the protagonist be unable to resolve the crisis

[drake heath]

So, Hawke's a tool who has no influence on anything, can't change the outcome of anything, and is slave to the plot?

I don't see how that's any better, actually, that's far worst, considering DA2 was supposed to be an RPG.

There's a reason having the protagonist be unable to resolve something in different ways and effect the outcome of things is rarely done in RPGs, because it's against the very idea of an RPG.
No one wants to play the henchman of the real protagonist (Anders), they want to be the protagonist.

Modifié par drake heath, 03 février 2014 - 11:33 .

[DRTJR]

Hawke will one day be a forgotten footnote in history where as the Warden will be remembered along-side Ferelden's Once and Future King. We played the Galahad to Alister's King Arthur, Hawke will play a part in the History as a friend and companion of either Sebastian Vael, or Anders. Nothing more or less.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

leaguer of one wrote...

LDS Darth Revan wrote...

My Hawke had very good relationships with their surviving sibling.

War was coming to the Free Marshes anyway due to the Arishok. Hawke just delayed it.

.

And that has nothing to do with Hawk. Orlais has it own civil war to deal with.

I know it doesn't. Hawke was just there and stopped the Arishok from killing all of Kirkwall's nobility, thus becoming the Champion.

[leaguer of one]

drake heath wrote...

So, Hawke's a tool who has no influence on anything, can't change the outcome of anything, and is slave to the plot?

I don't see how that's any better, actually, that's far worst, considering DA2 was supposed to be an RPG.

There's a reason having the protagonist be unable to resolve something in different ways and effect the outcome of things is rarely done in RPGs, because it's against the very idea of an RPG.
No one wants to play the henchman of the real protagonist (Anders), they want to be the protagonist.

All MC ARE SLAVES TO THE PLOT. Complaining that Hawk can't change anything is like complaining about the face you can get the warden in DAO to run away from the blight .