301 réponses à ce sujet

[In Exile]

TurretSyndrome wrote...
This is one of two main reasons why I disliked Hawke's story. I know that a lot of people want humanized characters in their RPGs these days(it seems to be like what's hip now), and not some guy who is "special" than others, "blessed by god" or something, but the reason I am fine with being the "chosen one" is because those characters never make you feel pathetic. Those characters don't have the kind of failure rate you have in your real life, so it feels refreshing. Hawke on the other hand ugh...

Hawke was what every Bioware protagonist would actually be in a more IRL like situation, because being amazing at murdering things doesn't magically make everything break your way. In DA:O, the Warden succeeds at every goal by being super great at killing. In ME1-2, Shepard succeeds at everything by being amazing at killing. For most of ME3, your skill at being awesome at killing lets you jump over most challenges, until you get to the endgame and suddenly you can't solve problems with your gun (until the refuse ending, which is sort of being trolled by this whole idea of killing = problem solving). 

"Chosen one" characters work because they're simple: murder the following things and be a beloved hero forever. 

[TurretSyndrome]

Teddie Sage wrote...
Here I'm saying that I disagree that he was a failure. Different strikes for different folks. Every heroes out there can be failures, because everything about this franchise is optional and subjective. Yet everyone throw out their opinions around as if they were facts and are inconsiderate about other forumers' feelings.

Being a failure is different from facing a few. I was just explaining who was what between Hawke and Shepard, and gave you reasons for it. 

You're right, the content is optional and only the player has the right to decide what qualifies as success or failure. 
As for the rest of your comment, I wasn't trying to be inconsiderate. I was actually waiting for you to draw out more points. Doesn't matter now.

[SgtSteel91]

@ In Exile

You can solve the problem at the end of ME3 with your gun. You can shoot the power outlet and kill all the Reapers everywhere (as well as all synthetics but details)

Modifié par SgtSteel91, 07 février 2014 - 04:59 .

[In Exile]

SgtSteel91 wrote...

@ In Exile

You can solve the problem at the end of ME3 with your gun. You can shoot the power outlet and kill all the Reapers everywhere (as well as all synthetics but details)

I forgot that's how it technically worked. I really didn't like ME3's ending, so I pretty much only played it the one time (the only Bioware game beside NWN that has that honour). 

[TurretSyndrome]

In Exile wrote...

Hawke was what every Bioware protagonist would actually be in a more IRL like situation, because being amazing at murdering things doesn't magically make everything break your way. In DA:O, the Warden succeeds at every goal by being super great at killing. In ME1-2, Shepard succeeds at everything by being amazing at killing. For most of ME3, your skill at being awesome at killing lets you jump over most challenges, until you get to the endgame and suddenly you can't solve problems with your gun (until the refuse ending, which is sort of being trolled by this whole idea of killing = problem solving). 

"Chosen one" characters work because they're simple: murder the following things and be a beloved hero forever. 

I don't really like to associate in-game combat with story. When I said what you quoted, I was only thinking story-wise. 

Shepard and Warden had more than just skill at killing things, they had choices, and those choices changed things for them, sometimes drastically. Hawke's choices were spit on, most of the time, and this is where I associate him to real life.

[Teddie Sage]

TurretSyndrome wrote...

Teddie Sage wrote...
Here I'm saying that I disagree that he was a failure. Different strikes for different folks. Every heroes out there can be failures, because everything about this franchise is optional and subjective. Yet everyone throw out their opinions around as if they were facts and are inconsiderate about other forumers' feelings.

Being a failure is different from facing a few. I was just explaining who was what between Hawke and Shepard, and gave you reasons for it. 

You're right, the content is optional and only the player has the right to decide what qualifies as success or failure. 
As for the rest of your comment, I wasn't trying to be inconsiderate. I was actually waiting for you to draw out more points. Doesn't matter now.

I'm a grumpy old cat man here today. People are just being rude to me and being pushy in their opinions. I guess I'll just become a hermit and build myself a house made of wood blocks in Minecraft. BRB life, I'm fed up with the world.

[In Exile]

TurretSyndrome wrote...
I don't really like to associate in-game combat with story. When I said what you quoted, I was only thinking story-wise. 

Shepard and Warden had more than just skill at killing things, they had choices, and those choices changed things for them, sometimes drastically. Hawke's choices were spit on, most of the time, and this is where I associate him to real life.

No, the choices existed as a consequence of awesome killing. Take Bhelen/Harrowmont: it's just a choice of who you're going to kill for, with the sort of miraculous outcome that your killing is directly what leads to the magic auto-win paragon Crown. Or Loghain. All of your political manuevering for the Landsmeet is irrelevant, because it turns into beating the snot out an elderly man for Ferelden. 

[leaguer of one]

In Exile wrote...

SgtSteel91 wrote...

@ In Exile

You can solve the problem at the end of ME3 with your gun. You can shoot the power outlet and kill all the Reapers everywhere (as well as all synthetics but details)

I forgot that's how it technically worked. I really didn't like ME3's ending, so I pretty much only played it the one time (the only Bioware game beside NWN that has that honour). 

You who is ok with people killing to get what they want is ageinst destroy?

[leaguer of one]

In Exile wrote...

TurretSyndrome wrote...
I don't really like to associate in-game combat with story. When I said what you quoted, I was only thinking story-wise. 

Shepard and Warden had more than just skill at killing things, they had choices, and those choices changed things for them, sometimes drastically. Hawke's choices were spit on, most of the time, and this is where I associate him to real life.

No, the choices existed as a consequence of awesome killing. Take Bhelen/Harrowmont: it's just a choice of who you're going to kill for, with the sort of miraculous outcome that your killing is directly what leads to the magic auto-win paragon Crown. Or Loghain. All of your political manuevering for the Landsmeet is irrelevant, because it turns into beating the snot out an elderly man for Ferelden. 

That really does not matter. He did not want to back down so the thunder came down. At least we can make that beating go fast then it would of if we messed up.

[TurretSyndrome]

In Exile wrote...

No, the choices existed as a consequence of awesome killing. Take Bhelen/Harrowmont: it's just a choice of who you're going to kill for, with the sort of miraculous outcome that your killing is directly what leads to the magic auto-win paragon Crown. Or Loghain. All of your political manuevering for the Landsmeet is irrelevant, because it turns into beating the snot out an elderly man for Ferelden. 

What I'm trying to say, is that the killing part is really irrelevent. Everyone kills, Hawke, Warden and Shepard, all three got atleast a few hundred in their ledgers. It's not like Hawke lost to anyone in the game. What comes later is what matters. 

The system is pretty simple. Choice 1->some killing->consequence 1. Choice 2->some killing->consequence 2. This is what it mostly was, for Warden and Shepard. 

For Hawke, Choice1, Choice 2, Choice 3.... Choice N-> consequence 0(Gaider's god hand appears and pushes Hawke in one direction, takes away something as a price).

Modifié par TurretSyndrome, 07 février 2014 - 05:13 .

[KaiserShep]

In Exile wrote...

TurretSyndrome wrote...
This is one of two main reasons why I disliked Hawke's story. I know that a lot of people want humanized characters in their RPGs these days(it seems to be like what's hip now), and not some guy who is "special" than others, "blessed by god" or something, but the reason I am fine with being the "chosen one" is because those characters never make you feel pathetic. Those characters don't have the kind of failure rate you have in your real life, so it feels refreshing. Hawke on the other hand ugh...

Hawke was what every Bioware protagonist would actually be in a more IRL like situation, because being amazing at murdering things doesn't magically make everything break your way. In DA:O, the Warden succeeds at every goal by being super great at killing. In ME1-2, Shepard succeeds at everything by being amazing at killing. For most of ME3, your skill at being awesome at killing lets you jump over most challenges, until you get to the endgame and suddenly you can't solve problems with your gun (until the refuse ending, which is sort of being trolled by this whole idea of killing = problem solving). 

"Chosen one" characters work because they're simple: murder the following things and be a beloved hero forever. 

Don't forget one of the secret weapons of the PC: the persuasion/reputation check. Being amazing at killing is great, but you can't beat the awesome power of the unlockable dialogue option that sways the character to do exactly what you want, regardless of their prior reservations. Heck it can determine the fate of an entire species.

Modifié par KaiserShep, 07 février 2014 - 05:17 .

[leaguer of one]

TurretSyndrome wrote...

In Exile wrote...

No, the choices existed as a consequence of awesome killing. Take Bhelen/Harrowmont: it's just a choice of who you're going to kill for, with the sort of miraculous outcome that your killing is directly what leads to the magic auto-win paragon Crown. Or Loghain. All of your political manuevering for the Landsmeet is irrelevant, because it turns into beating the snot out an elderly man for Ferelden. 

What I'm trying to say, is that the killing part is really irrelevent. Everyone kills, Hawke, Warden and Shepard, all three got atleast a few hundred in their ledgers. It's not like Hawke lost to anyone in the game. What comes later is what matters. 

The system is pretty simple. Choice 1->some killing->consequence 1. Choice 2->some killing->consequence 2. This is what it mostly was, for Warden and Shepard. 

For Hawke, Choice1, Choice 2, Choice 3.... Choice N-> consequence 0(Gaider's god hand appears and pushes Hawke in one direction, takes away something as a price).

It not all like that. Hawk's siblings he can effect via choice and if Hawk becoame the Vicount is directed by player choice.

But you're right ot say it does not come often in the plot.

[leaguer of one]

KaiserShep wrote...

In Exile wrote...

TurretSyndrome wrote...
This is one of two main reasons why I disliked Hawke's story. I know that a lot of people want humanized characters in their RPGs these days(it seems to be like what's hip now), and not some guy who is "special" than others, "blessed by god" or something, but the reason I am fine with being the "chosen one" is because those characters never make you feel pathetic. Those characters don't have the kind of failure rate you have in your real life, so it feels refreshing. Hawke on the other hand ugh...

Hawke was what every Bioware protagonist would actually be in a more IRL like situation, because being amazing at murdering things doesn't magically make everything break your way. In DA:O, the Warden succeeds at every goal by being super great at killing. In ME1-2, Shepard succeeds at everything by being amazing at killing. For most of ME3, your skill at being awesome at killing lets you jump over most challenges, until you get to the endgame and suddenly you can't solve problems with your gun (until the refuse ending, which is sort of being trolled by this whole idea of killing = problem solving). 

"Chosen one" characters work because they're simple: murder the following things and be a beloved hero forever. 

Don't forget one of the secret weapons of the PC: the persuasion/reputation check. Being amazing at killing is great, but you can't beat the awesome power of the unlockable dialogue option that sways the character to do exactly what you want, regardless of their prior reservations. Heck it can determine the fate of an entire species.

That's how it is with all rpgs with charm systems.

[KaiserShep]

This is true, but DA2 is kind of a special case, because there was no coercion skill, only the friendship/rivalry spectrum to determine how the companions behaved.

[SgtSteel91]

Don't forget special dialogue options that depend on if Hawke's personality was predominately Diplomatic/Silly/Aggressive

[KaiserShep]

There's those, but do they actually affect the actions of other characters beyond some unique responses like "That's not funny" or "You're terrible", or do they simply add to the personality? 

Modifié par KaiserShep, 07 février 2014 - 05:40 .

[SgtSteel91]

KaiserShep wrote...

There's those, but do they actually affect the actions of other characters beyond some unique responses like "That's not funny" or "You're terrible", or do they simply add to the personality? 

I think there is a special option to get Maraas to fight with Hawke in Act 1 if Hawke had an Aggresive personality, there's also that option only for Silly!Hawke where you try to trick guards and not fight them, but Merrill screws it up because she thought you were being literal. Those sorts of things.

[leaguer of one]

KaiserShep wrote...

This is true, but DA2 is kind of a special case, because there was no coercion skill, only the friendship/rivalry spectrum to determine how the companions behaved.

It had it. We even used it to help the mages hiding in act 1 on the coast escape.

[Stalker]

I wouldn't dare call him a "tragic hero". "Incredibly poor bastard" would fit a lot better.

His mother dies from some psychopath she wanted to date, Anders blows up the church because he's gone bat**** crazy, the templar milf is snapping for some weird obsession with mages, that elf mage has the most grotesque idea ever to follow his ideals and in retrospect really everyone he meets would have done what they did anyway...

Up until the end, Hawke is really just some random observer who suffers the consequences of others.
He's got absolutely no aspect of a hero, aside being the protagonist of the story.

Modifié par Mr Massakka, 07 février 2014 - 09:03 .

[KaiserShep]

Lol Templar milf. If you side with Meredith, you get a pretty good idea why she's obsessed with the mage threat. Her sister turned into an abomination and killed her entire family. 

Modifié par KaiserShep, 07 février 2014 - 08:43 .

[leaguer of one]

KaiserShep wrote...

Lol Templar milf. If you side with Meredith, you get a pretty good idea why she's obsessed with the mage threat. Her sister turned into an abomination and killed her entire family. 

If you side with her and kill the mages that try to turn themselves in.

[KaiserShep]

The point is that you get better insight into her character. In her position I might be inclined to think similarly. It's too bad that you don't get this regardless, which should have been done. Similarly you shouldn't have to side with the templars to find out that Orsino knew of Quentin's work until the last minute. 

Modifié par KaiserShep, 07 février 2014 - 08:55 .

[leaguer of one]

KaiserShep wrote...

The point is that you get better insight into her character. In her position I might be inclined to think similarly. It's too bad that you don't get this regardless, which should have been done. Similarly you shouldn't have to side with the templars to find out that Orsino knew of Quentin's work until the last minute. 

Dead hores.

[KaiserShep]

Ookay then...

Is that to say that I'm beating a dead horse or something? Not sure what you're getting at.

Modifié par KaiserShep, 07 février 2014 - 10:02 .

[Gregolian]

I always viewed Hawke as one of the more selfish people in all of RPGs. Look into it, the entire first act yes he may do things that help people but ultimately everything he does is to gain gold and standing to use with Bartrand to go on the expedition.

After that, yes people ask him to help solve their problems but outside of maybe some of the companion quests... is there any real reason to do them OTHER than getting gold? The guy already is now in Hightown, returned essentially to a "noble" rank among other things.

Hawke doesn't do anything unless their is a benefit to them in this game. Yes, The Warden may have been just a glorified killer but other than dealing with Howe/Loghain is there anything you do that is really for your own personal gain like Hawke does?