301 réponses à ce sujet

[Jaulen]

SgtSteel91 wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

My Hawke and Carver got along well enough in the end. And I don't think killing the Arishok in a Qun sanctioned duel would be an act of war.

If anything it made him a respected individual among the Qunari.

Wouldn't that depend if you're dueling the Arishok because of 1) your reputation with him, and/or 2) what you decide to do with Izzy?

I mean, I've had Hawkes where there was no "I respect you enough to duel you."....it was more of a "I lump you in with the rest of the maggots in this city and you're going to die like the rest of them."

Would you still gain respect just by killing the Arishok? or does it matter that you killed him if he respects you as a (going to murder the spelling here) Basalet-An?

[leaguer of one]

DRTJR wrote...

Hawke will one day be a forgotten footnote in history where as the Warden will be remembered along-side Ferelden's Once and Future King. We played the Galahad to Alister's King Arthur, Hawke will play a part in the History as a friend and companion of either Sebastian Vael, or Anders. Nothing more or less.

No he won't. With al the crasy that started in da2 that won't happen.

[drake heath]

Hawke can't change how the plot goes though, the Warden can.

Like why didn't Hawke save his mother? Because the plot said he couldn't.

[leaguer of one]

Jaulen wrote...

SgtSteel91 wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

My Hawke and Carver got along well enough in the end. And I don't think killing the Arishok in a Qun sanctioned duel would be an act of war.

If anything it made him a respected individual among the Qunari.

Wouldn't that depend if you're dueling the Arishok because of 1) your reputation with him, and/or 2) what you decide to do with Izzy?

I mean, I've had Hawkes where there was no "I respect you enough to duel you."....it was more of a "I lump you in with the rest of the maggots in this city and you're going to die like the rest of them."

Would you still gain respect just by killing the Arishok? or does it matter that you killed him if he respects you as a (going to murder the spelling here) Basalet-An?

Yes, you get respectbut not as a Basalet-An.

[leaguer of one]

drake heath wrote...

Hawke can't change how the plot goes though, the Warden can.

Like why didn't Hawke save his mother? Because the plot said he couldn't.

The warden can change the results of the plots, not the plot themselves. Their much that the Warden can't stop from happening, Like Tamlins death, their cousins rape, their dwarven fathers death and other things.

[rasloveszev]

I agree/disagree with you. It depends on your gameplay. 

She did not save her sister.

She did not salvage the relationship with her brother.

I was a Warrior, so Bethany always lived. The relationship was always Carver's fault for being such a ******.

She most likely brought war to The Free Marches due to TWO her actions.

I never saw Hawke as a hero, just a victum of circumstances.

The Arishok was killing eveyone else! What was she suppose to do?!
No one knows that Flemeth is evil and no one truly knew what Flemeth was cooking up. Anyone would have taken the bait if it meant saving their family.

Helping a rogue Mage/Grey Warden blow up a Chantry building killing a Grand Cleric Elthina which leads to a HUGE war betweem Mages / Templars / Chantry.

Some people didn't. And it seems that no one blames Hawke for the destruction of the chantry, just for starting the war.

Providing the means of a decorated Templar Knight Commander (Merrideth) to get her hands on a special lyruim idol that eventually made her insane and led to her death.

That was Varric's brother, not Hawke. 

Perhaps releasing an ancient original Tevinter Magister (Corypheus) upon Thedas who might be responsible for the tear in the veil and all the chaos there of.

I never got that DLC.

Perhaps her venture into the deep roads led the world to discovering Red Lyrium thus the problems that caused within the Templar order.

Again, VARRIC'S BROTHER. Hawke  had little to do with the discovery other than just being there with Varric.

And tragically all of this occurred because she thought she was doing the right thing. Even when trying to do the right thing, she might be indirectly responsible for the needless death of thousands.

In my playthrough, I saved a buttload of lives, and when lives could not be saved, it was due to someone else's incompetence and evil.

No wonder Cassandra was looking for her.

Cassandra's looking for her because no one know the real story about Hawke:
A mere victum of circumstances. Ever notice that the situtations you have a choice in are VERY insignificant? While the big ones, you don't have control over?

[DRTJR]

leaguer of one wrote...

DRTJR wrote...

Hawke will one day be a forgotten footnote in history where as the Warden will be remembered along-side Ferelden's Once and Future King. We played the Galahad to Alister's King Arthur, Hawke will play a part in the History as a friend and companion of either Sebastian Vael, or Anders. Nothing more or less.

No he won't. With al the crasy that started in da2 that won't happen.

Anders and Sebastian are probably the most likely to be attributed the success and blames by history, as one blew up a Chantry sparking a war of independence and the other is the prince of Starkhaven. 

[drake heath]

leaguer of one wrote...
The warden can change the results of the plots, not the plot themselves. Their much that the Warden can't stop from happening, Like Tamlins death, their cousins rape, their dwarven fathers death and other things.

Yeah, but Hawke can't change a thing.

That's the big difference, nothing Hawke does makes a difference.

Also Hawke has to do some really stupid stuff to forward the plot (even though DA2 hardly had one), like planting Anders' bomb or never following up on that murder.

Really, you're getting tied up on a throw-away line I added because I needed to be grandiose, the fact of it is, Hawke's an awful RPG protagonist.

Modifié par drake heath, 03 février 2014 - 11:45 .

[Jaulen]

leaguer of one wrote...

drake heath wrote...

So, Hawke's a tool who has no influence on anything, can't change the outcome of anything, and is slave to the plot?

I don't see how that's any better, actually, that's far worst, considering DA2 was supposed to be an RPG.

There's a reason having the protagonist be unable to resolve something in different ways and effect the outcome of things is rarely done in RPGs, because it's against the very idea of an RPG.
No one wants to play the henchman of the real protagonist (Anders), they want to be the protagonist.

All MC ARE SLAVES TO THE PLOT. Complaining that Hawk can't change anything is like complaining about the face you can get the warden in DAO to run away from the blight .

Agreed.

I always kind of think it's funny that the 'slave to the plot' thing gets brought up, since....well, we're playing a game with a predetermined story line and scripted outcomes. We have choices in these games insofar as the writers want us to have choices and have those choices actually have some sort of impact, small or large......not all choices will lead to world changing senarios......saving someone vs letting them die might just mean that on a certain day 20 years from now he orders oatmeal instead of his usual scrambled eggs for breakfast.

It's not like these games have random cause-and-effect generators.

[leaguer of one]

DRTJR wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

DRTJR wrote...

Hawke will one day be a forgotten footnote in history where as the Warden will be remembered along-side Ferelden's Once and Future King. We played the Galahad to Alister's King Arthur, Hawke will play a part in the History as a friend and companion of either Sebastian Vael, or Anders. Nothing more or less.

No he won't. With al the crasy that started in da2 that won't happen.

Anders and Sebastian are probably the most likely to be attributed the success and blames by history, as one blew up a Chantry sparking a war of independence and the other is the prince of Starkhaven. 

But Hawk is the name use to bulster the templar or mages after. As well as stopping a qunari attack. Sorry, Hawk is not going to be forgotten.

[leaguer of one]

drake heath wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...
The warden can change the results of the plots, not the plot themselves. Their much that the Warden can't stop from happening, Like Tamlins death, their cousins rape, their dwarven fathers death and other things.

Yeah, but Hawke can't change a thing.

That's the big difference, nothing Hawke does makes a difference.

Also Hawke has to do some really stupid stuff to forward the plot (even though DA2 hardly had one), like planting Anders' bomb or never following up on that murder.

So Hawk becoming the Vicount and saving as many mages he can while working with the templars is not a player control result?Nor is who live or dies in your group?

Modifié par leaguer of one, 03 février 2014 - 11:53 .

[wright1978]

Hawke an individual caught up in a maelstrom beyond their control, having to make the best of it.
I don't actually mind the idea but I think they got the balance wrong in terms of the lack of sway his/her decisions could have outside of the companion stuff.

[Abraham_uk]

leaguer of one wrote...
All MC ARE SLAVES TO THE PLOT. Complaining that Hawk can't change anything is like complaining about the face you can get the warden in DAO to run away from the blight .

I suppose if you play pen and paper RPG's you might have more control.
The game master would have to be lenient though.



Player 1: Yeah I'm in favour of going into that dark tunnel.
Player 2: Me too.
Game Master: You sure? You're not supposed to go down there till act 2
Player 1: Yeah but we want to go down that tunnel now.
Game Master: Sigh. I'm going to have to make some radical changes to the plot because there was supposed to be a huge revelation. Okay. Maybe the overpowered monsters and the plot crucial character haven't arrived yet. To the dark tunnel it is.

Player 1: So what exactly is inside the dark tunnel?
Game Master: In act 1. Umm. Can you give me 10 minutes so that I can come up with something. Man I really didn't think you'd want to go into the dark tunnel yet. You have no weapons, no armour or anything.

Modifié par Abraham_uk, 03 février 2014 - 11:57 .

[leaguer of one]

Abraham_uk wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...
All MC ARE SLAVES TO THE PLOT. Complaining that Hawk can't change anything is like complaining about the face you can get the warden in DAO to run away from the blight .

I suppose if you play pen and paper RPG's you might have more control.
The game master would have to be lenient though.


Player 1: Yeah I'm in favour of going into that dark tunnel.
Player 2: Me too.
Game Master: You sure? You're not supposed to go down there till act 2
Player 1: Yeah but we want to go down that tunnel now.
Game Master: Sigh. I'm going to have to make some radical changes to the plot because there was supposed to be a huge revelation. Okay. Maybe the overpowered monsters and the plot crucial character haven't arrived yet. To the dark tunnel it is.

Player 1: So what exactly is inside the dark tunnel
Game Master: In act 1. Umm. Can you give me 10 minutes so that I can come up with something. Man I really didn't think you'd want to go into the dark tunnel yet. You have no weapons, no armour or anything.

Welcome to the flaw of digital games.

[drake heath]

leaguer of one wrote...
So Hawk becoming the Vicount and saving as many mages he can while working with the templars is not a player control result. Nor is who live or dies in your group?

And exactly what changed because of that?

That Templar-mage war still happens, Hawke still disappears, and Orsino and Meredeth still die.
Hawke also still has to plant Anders' bomb, his mom still dies, (both were pretty easily preventable, rediculously so).

Hawke's a tool, a lacky, he's basically Anders' companion.

[Aaleel]

Tragic Spectator is more like it. Unable to change anything, caught up as a bystander but somehow became a symbol for both sides even though he/she tried to run away from it all.

[drake heath]

Abraham_uk wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...
All MC ARE SLAVES TO THE PLOT. Complaining that Hawk can't change anything is like complaining about the face you can get the warden in DAO to run away from the blight .

I suppose if you play pen and paper RPG's you might have more control.
The game master would have to be lenient though.


Player 1: Yeah I'm in favour of going into that dark tunnel.
Player 2: Me too.
Game Master: You sure? You're not supposed to go down there till act 2
Player 1: Yeah but we want to go down that tunnel now.
Game Master: Sigh. I'm going to have to make some radical changes to the plot because there was supposed to be a huge revelation. Okay. Maybe the overpowered monsters and the plot crucial character haven't arrived yet. To the dark tunnel it is.

Player 1: So what exactly is inside the dark tunnel
Game Master: In act 1. Umm. Can you give me 10 minutes so that I can come up with something. Man I really didn't think you'd want to go into the dark tunnel yet. You have no weapons, no armour or anything.

That guy's a pretty bad dungeon master if he needs the players to follow an exact path to further the quest.

[leaguer of one]

drake heath wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...
So Hawk becoming the Vicount and saving as many mages he can while working with the templars is not a player control result. Nor is who live or dies in your group?

And exactly what changed because of that?

That Templar-mage war still happens, Hawke still disappears, and Orsino and Meredeth still die.
Hawke also still has to plant Anders' bomb, his mom still dies, (both were pretty easily preventable, rediculously so).

Hawke's a tool, a lacky, he's basically Anders' companion.

Complaining about not stopping the mage-templar war is like complaining about not being able to stop Loghain from betrying his King, or anything in DAA from awakening from happen.

Complaining about Hawk not being able to save his mom is like complaining that the dalish elf can't save Tamlin and always has to kill him.
And on Hawk disappear, you have no complains about the Warden doing the same?

[leaguer of one]

Aaleel wrote...

Tragic Spectator is more like it. Unable to change anything, caught up as a bystander but somehow became a symbol for both sides even though he/she tried to run away from it all.

[AresKeith]

leaguer of one wrote...

drake heath wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...
So Hawk becoming the Vicount and saving as many mages he can while working with the templars is not a player control result. Nor is who live or dies in your group?

And exactly what changed because of that?

That Templar-mage war still happens, Hawke still disappears, and Orsino and Meredeth still die.
Hawke also still has to plant Anders' bomb, his mom still dies, (both were pretty easily preventable, rediculously so).

Hawke's a tool, a lacky, he's basically Anders' companion.

Complaining about not stopping the mage-templar war is like complaining about not being able to stop Loghain from betrying his King, or anything in DAA from awakening from happen.

Complaining about Hawk not being able to save his mom is like complaining that the dalish elf can't save Tamlin and always has to kill him.
And on Hawk disappear, you have no complains about the Warden doing the same?

What makes you think he hasn't? And those comparisons of yours makes no sense

[leaguer of one]

AresKeith wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

drake heath wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...
So Hawk becoming the Vicount and saving as many mages he can while working with the templars is not a player control result. Nor is who live or dies in your group?

And exactly what changed because of that?

That Templar-mage war still happens, Hawke still disappears, and Orsino and Meredeth still die.
Hawke also still has to plant Anders' bomb, his mom still dies, (both were pretty easily preventable, rediculously so).

Hawke's a tool, a lacky, he's basically Anders' companion.

Complaining about not stopping the mage-templar war is like complaining about not being able to stop Loghain from betrying his King, or anything in DAA from awakening from happen.

Complaining about Hawk not being able to save his mom is like complaining that the dalish elf can't save Tamlin and always has to kill him.
And on Hawk disappear, you have no complains about the Warden doing the same?

What makes you think he hasn't? And those comparisons of yours makes no sense

They make sense being that their simular plot elements that the player can't change.

[Abraham_uk]

Plot of DA 2 in a nutshell.

Before you read on, might I add that I actually loved Dragon Age 2's plot. I actually enjoyed everything about DA 2 except for the repeated environments.


Act 1

NPC: Serah Hawke. I hear you're trying to raise money for an expedition. Can you help me?
Hawke: Okay

Hawke accepts 200 quests that involve killing hoardes of enemies.
Hawke ends Act 1 very tired but very rich.


Act 2:

Vicount: Can you try an negotiate peace with the Qunari?
Hawke: I have no idea how to do this.
Vicount: But you wield a lot of power beyond your station.
Hawke: That's what Aveline keeps complaining about. She tells me I need to get an actual job.
Vicount: But my job is really hard and there are thousands of lives in the balance. Please help me out.
Hawke: It's not that I don't want to help you. It's that I can't. I'm good at killing things. Whenever I try to talk myself out of fights, idiots try to kill me anyway. You'd think that killing 1577 beasts, daemons, darkspawn and humanoids would be enough to deter people.

Hawke eventually agrees to negotiate peace with the Qunari.
The Qunari massacre Kirkwall.


Act 3:

Meredith: Pick my side. I want to imprison all mages.
Orsino: Mages should be free.
Meredith: Control!
Orsino: You're a mage! Surely you'll pick my side.
Meredith: Your mother was killed by an out of control blood mage. Surely you'll pick my side.
Anders: I've had enough! Time to blow up the chantry!

Hawke: Why am I being called to resolve this issue? Does anyone remember the time when I tried to solve the Qunari crisis?

Sebastian: Maker no!

Hawke: Precisely!

Modifié par Abraham_uk, 04 février 2014 - 12:21 .

[wolfhowwl]

leaguer of one wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

drake heath wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...
So
Hawk becoming the Vicount and saving as many mages he can while working
with the templars is not a player control result. Nor is who live or
dies in your group?

And exactly what changed because of that?

That Templar-mage war still happens, Hawke still disappears, and Orsino and Meredeth still die.
Hawke also still has to plant Anders' bomb, his mom still dies, (both were pretty easily preventable, rediculously so).

Hawke's a tool, a lacky, he's basically Anders' companion.

Complaining
about not stopping the mage-templar war is like complaining about not
being able to stop Loghain from betrying his King, or anything in DAA
from awakening from happen.

Complaining about Hawk not being able
to save his mom is like complaining that the dalish elf can't save
Tamlin and always has to kill him.
And on Hawk disappear, you have no complains about the Warden doing the same?

What makes you think he hasn't? And those comparisons of yours makes no sense

They make sense being that their simular plot elements that the player can't change.

But they're not the same.

The Warden has no reason to suspect Loghain of betraying the King.

The game shows that Hawke knows Anders is going to do something against the Chantry. Even though Anders is in Hawke's control, the player (or Cullen) is not allowed to do anything because the plot demands Anders succeed no matter what.

There is a reason the former was a decently received twist while the latter was castigated by frustrated players for its blatant railroading.

Modifié par wolfhowwl, 04 février 2014 - 12:16 .

[leaguer of one]

Abraham_uk wrote...

Plot of DA 2 in a nutshell.

Before you read on, might I add that I actually loved Dragon Age 2's plot. I actually enjoyed everything about DA 2 except for the repeated environments.


Act 1

NPC: Serah Hawke. I hear you're trying to raise money for an expedition. Can you help me?
Hawke: Okay

Hawke accepts 200 quests that involve killing hoardes of enemies.
Hawke ends Act 1 very tired but very rich.


Act 2:

Vicount: Can you try an negotiate peace with the Qunari?
Hawke: I have no idea how to do this.
Vicount: But you wield a lot of power beyond your station.
Hawke: That's what Aveline keeps complaining about. She tells me I need to get an actual job.
Vicount: But my job is really hard and there are thousands of lives in the balance. Please help me out.
Hawke: It's not that I don't want to help you. It's that I can't. I'm good at killing things. Whenever I try to talk myself out of fights, idiots try to kill me anyway. You'd think that killing 1577 beasts, daemons, darkspawn and humanoids would be enough to deter people.

Hawke eventually agrees to negotiate peace with the Qunari.
The Qunari massacre Kirkwall.


Act 3:

Meredith: Pick my side. I want to imprison all mages.
Orsino: Mages should be free.
Meredith: Control!
Orsino: You're a mage! Surely you'll pick my side.
Meredith: Your mother was killed by an out of control mage mage. Surely you'll pick my side.
Anders: I've had enough! Time to blow up the chantry!

Hawke: Why am I being called to resolve this issue? Does anyone remember the time when I tried to solve the Qunari crisis?

Sebastian: Maker no!

Hawke: Precisely!

Priceless...

[Veruin]

leaguer of one wrote...
They make sense being that their simular plot elements that the player can't change.

There's a difference between having the knowledge to try and change the plot rather than being "Lolnope, you can't do anything"
  
That is where the teeth gnashing occurs.

Leandra's death is example.

Modifié par Veruin, 04 février 2014 - 12:18 .