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[Grieving Natashina]

The Hierophant wrote...

Meh. Hawke not raising awareness about the lyrium idol to Dumar or Cullen after confronting Bartrand, them ignoring Petrice as a threat after she made her intent clear, and them letting Tallis leave with the list unopposed are the only instances that i can remember that Hawke was forced to be passive despite their knowledge on the threats from the above situations.

I think Quentin was Aveline's screwup as she didn't investigate the crime scene further, since she believed the murders were only the work of lowly bandits despite the jewellery being left behind.

I agree with much of this, especially the bolded.  That was Aveline's screw up, by just dismissing what both Hawke and Emeric had said about him.  Even if you take Aveline with you the first trip to the Dark Foundry, she makes a comment about "This doesn't mean anything," and ignores the "white lilies" remark later in Act 2.  I felt Aveline dropped the ball with the elves that ended up in the Arishok's care as well.  A guard rapes their sister, and Aveline just said "Oh, we'll look into it."  I felt like I was doing Ave's job by the end of the game. <_<

[KaiserShep]

Br3ad wrote...
Hawke who let crazy people roam free,  helped aid in the destruction of the Chantry, gave super demon lyrium to a psycho, stood and watched while their sibling was killed Hawke? Okay, different strokes for different folks. 

Hell Kirkwall was neck deep in crazy. Orsino was crazy. Meredith was crazy. Blood mages and Gestapo Templars all over the place. Bartrand wasn't a psycho. He was a greedy bastard. Without the idol in hand, it's not like there was anyone to turn to about it, on top of the fact that Meredith was in on the scheme in the first place. Can't blame Hawke for the sibling death. That was a total Darwin Award moment. You can't fight the forces of Darwin. 

Modifié par KaiserShep, 04 février 2014 - 03:30 .

[CybAnt1]

According to Aristotle,

"The structure of the best tragedy should not be simple but complex and one that represents incidents arousing fear and pity—for that is peculiar to this form of art."[50] This reversal of fortune must be caused by the tragic hero's hamartia, which is often mistranslated as a character flaw, but is more correctly translated as a mistake (since the original Greek etymology traces back to hamartanein, a sporting term that refers to an archer or spear-thrower missing his target).[51] According to Aristotle, "The change to bad fortune which he undergoes is not due to any moral defect or flaw, but a mistake of some kind."[52] The reversal is the inevitable but unforeseen result of some action taken by the hero. It is also a misconception that this reversal can be brought about by a higher power (e.g. the law, the gods, fate, or society), but if a character’s downfall is brought about by an external cause, Aristotle describes this as a misadventure and not a tragedy.

(from Wikipedia)

Modifié par CybAnt1, 04 février 2014 - 03:33 .

[CybAnt1]

So: now that we're working from actual definitions.

Hawke: downfall from innate flaw (not tragedy), external forces (that would be misadventure), or the unforeseen result of an action taken by the hero? (i.e. a mistake)

I think despite the three act structure of DA2, Hawke's fundamental tragic mistake is (IMHO) going on Bartrand's Expedition at the end of Act 1. It is the key to his rise to wealth in Act 2, then (potentially) power in Act 3, yet also is what unleashes the central tragedy of the narrative.

From the game and player's point of view, it is inevitable. You can't play the game and finish it without going on the expedition.

Hawke was capable of making a different decision (examining him as a protagonist), but no, no other option was given to the player. (By that, I mean, the main thing driving him in Act 1 is the poverty of himself and his family, and there surely could have been other means to escape it. In fact, the odd thing is, you would almost think becoming part owner in a mine could have been sufficient in and of itself, but the game doesn't really present that.)

[KaiserShep]

The mine was pretty much doomed too, since it was infested by dragons, then spiders, then ultimately destroyed by the high dragon.

[TheKomandorShepard]

I would put hawke as idiot hero and failure hero badly written.Hawke is result poor written story what try enforce drama everywhere making to such extreme they made protagonist ultimate idiot just to squeeze last bit of drama from every plot.Often actions that would make difference are denied because of that and hawke is forced to be not only idiot but retarded , he was lazy never did nothing outside neither he was helping templars or mages outside where situation forced him that same for qunari or other things.

Simple hawke was incompetent brainless muscle to point that he couldn't even take as advantage his strenght.He was pawn for everyone not player...

We can have smiliar results with fanfitcion written by emo...

Crap even my charaters with low-intelligence in arcanum had more control over their life than hawke and were more competent.   

[KaiserShep]

I wish I had a nickel for every time I read that a BioWare protagonist was somehow the victim of tragically bad writing on BSN. I could swim in it like Scrooge McDuck.

[KiwiQuiche]

drake heath wrote...

Hawke was a foolish puppet whose entire life consisted of being around and doing the bidding of far more important people, basically just being strung along by the plot with no impact or relevance.

Hawke could have literally been anyone, it would not have made a difference, Hawke could have died in Lothering and nothing would have changed.

I hope he ends up dead in a ditch, a pointless death for a pointless protagonist.

[JoltDealer]

No offense meant, but in a lot of ways, Hawke was not much more than a glorified plot device. He moved the story along. There was no clear conflict driving his actions throughout the entire story as there was in the case of the Warden. He went from needing to make money, avoiding a conflict with a Qunari, and then keeping the mage and templars from breaking into war. No one thing drove him. All Hawke did was set up several things that will likely play into Inquisition.

[Jigglypuff]

Hawke is a flop and that's because we barely had choices when dealing with ha'
I know bioware will answer our prayer and make us have more control over the storyline.
make it happen guys!

[Gileadan]

Dragon Age 2 was marketed with the tagline "Rise to Power" and a CGI trailer with a badass mage killing the Arishok. The story simply failed to deliver the rise to power because it got too caught up in personal drama, just like the actual fight against the Arishok was a lame cowardly circle kite for many players instead of a big battle. I think the failure to show a good rise to power combined with the story's constant railroading and drama is (kindly or self-deceptively) mis-interpreted as an intentional attempt at tragedy.

[Jigglypuff]

I am still pressed over Leandra Hawkes death, why were we not given a choice to save her.
It's so obvious like the previous poster said that it was for drama.

[KiwiQuiche]

Phoenixalex wrote...

I am still pressed over Leandra Hawkes death, why were we not given a choice to save her.
It's so obvious like the previous poster said that it was for drama.

Lol I'm pretty sure David Gaider said that if Leandra was able to be saved then everyone would choose that option- so they made sure you couldn't save her no matter what for teh dramaz and a hamfisted attempt at angst.

[Jigglypuff]

KiwiQuiche wrote...

Phoenixalex wrote...

I am still pressed over Leandra Hawkes death, why were we not given a choice to save her.
It's so obvious like the previous poster said that it was for drama.

Lol I'm pretty sure David Gaider said that if Leandra was able to be saved then everyone would choose that option- so they made sure you couldn't save her no matter what for teh dramaz and a hamfisted attempt at angst.

Not to mention a poor attempt at making the romance progress with more dramatic angst.

[wright1978]

KiwiQuiche wrote...

Phoenixalex wrote...

I am still pressed over Leandra Hawkes death, why were we not given a choice to save her.
It's so obvious like the previous poster said that it was for drama.

Lol I'm pretty sure David Gaider said that if Leandra was able to be saved then everyone would choose that option- so they made sure you couldn't save her no matter what for teh dramaz and a hamfisted attempt at angst.

i always thought there there should have been a very amoral/unpleasant use of blood magic to act as means of saving her.

[Hazegurl]

AutumnWitch wrote...

Think about this. (I will refer to Hawke as "she" as I played her as female, so don't get offended please)

She did not save her sister.

She did not salvage the relationship with her brother.

She did not save her mother.

My Hawke enjoyed pissing off Carver but overall I think they worked things out, especially during the DLC dialouge. The one where the dwarves wanted their blood. Sucks that he couldn't save Bethany from the Orc thing. 

She most likely brought war to The Free Marches due to TWO her actions.

1. Killing the Arishok.

2. Killing (and stealing from) a high ranking Orlesian noble. (Duke Prosper)

Well these two things are optional. Hawke could just hand over Isabella and skip MoTA.

Giving the means to Flemeth (a notorious apostate) to save herself from destruction by taking part of Flemeth's soul to the Dalish.

Helping a rogue Mage/Grey Warden blow up a Chantry building killing a Grand Cleric Elthina which leads to a HUGE war betweem Mages / Templars / Chantry.

Providing the means of a decorated Templar Knight Commander (Merrideth) to get her hands on a special lyruim idol that eventually made her insane and led to her death.

I don't consider this Hawke's fault. He owed Flemeth, My Hawke saw through Anders and refused to help him and then warned the Cleric and Cullen, and Meredith is the cause of her own addictions.

Perhaps releasing an ancient original Tevinter Magister (Corypheus) upon Thedas who might be responsible for the tear in the veil and all the chaos there of.

Yeah, that sucks. He shouldn't have never released him thinking some mage could control him.

But I do see what you mean. Might as well play Hawke as a villian with the amount of destruction he can cause.

[KaiserShep]

KiwiQuiche wrote...

Phoenixalex wrote...

I am still pressed over Leandra Hawkes death, why were we not given a choice to save her.
It's so obvious like the previous poster said that it was for drama.

Lol I'm pretty sure David Gaider said that if Leandra was able to be saved then everyone would choose that option- so they made sure you couldn't save her no matter what for teh dramaz and a hamfisted attempt at angst.

Thing is, how would such a decision be presented in the game? I suppose the dialogue options in response to Leandra informing Hawke about an admirer that sent a bouquet of white lillies would be dependent upon completing the prior quests that present the pattern, in which case it would simply require the player to actually want Leandra to die. I don't remember how many, if any, of the quests involved are required for the game to progress though.

Regarding helping Anders, I can only assume that some people assumed that Anders' quest is required for the plot to progress, since it seems like Hawke is automatically blamed for what he did despite it being optional.

Modifié par KaiserShep, 04 février 2014 - 08:12 .

[Alex109222]

I think there is a correct way to play Hawke, and that's my way.

Kill Anders.

Sell Isabela.

Remove malificar from the premesis! You will get caught!

Become Viscount.

That way you get a decent foothold in history as the person who culled the blood-mages and stopped at nothing to help his city.

[KaiserShep]

Why would anyone want to become viscount of that toilet?

[draken-heart]

Phoenixalex wrote...

I am still pressed over Leandra Hawkes death, why were we not given a choice to save her.
It's so obvious like the previous poster said that it was for drama.

I am probably the only one who's going to say this, but I think the idea was for the "hero/ine" that is Hawke (i.e. us) to rethink the idea of Mage freedom, especially when guys like Quentin and Anders are allowed to run free and end up causing Havoc, Spirit-powered abomination or not.

Modifié par draken-heart, 04 février 2014 - 09:46 .

[HiroVoid]

draken-heart wrote...

Phoenixalex wrote...

I am still pressed over Leandra Hawkes death, why were we not given a choice to save her.
It's so obvious like the previous poster said that it was for drama.

I am probably the only one who's going to say this, but I think the idea was for the "hero/ine" that is Hawke (i.e. us) to rethink the idea of Mage freedom, especially when guys like Quentin and Anders are allowed to run free and end up causing Havoc, Spirit-powered abomination or not.

Actually, Mary Kirby outright said the Quentin plotline was supposed to give the players a reason to feel personally wronged by a mage in a post probably a year or more ago.

[draken-heart]

HiroVoid wrote...

draken-heart wrote...

Phoenixalex wrote...

I am still pressed over Leandra Hawkes death, why were we not given a choice to save her.
It's so obvious like the previous poster said that it was for drama.

I am probably the only one who's going to say this, but I think the idea was for the "hero/ine" that is Hawke (i.e. us) to rethink the idea of Mage freedom, especially when guys like Quentin and Anders are allowed to run free and end up causing Havoc, Spirit-powered abomination or not.

Actually, Mary Kirby outright said the Quentin plotline was supposed to give the players a reason to feel personally wronged by a mage in a post probably a year or more ago.

Did not know that. But I meant out of the forumites, not devs.

[OdanUrr]

HiroVoid wrote...

draken-heart wrote...

Phoenixalex wrote...

I am still pressed over Leandra Hawkes death, why were we not given a choice to save her.
It's so obvious like the previous poster said that it was for drama.

I am probably the only one who's going to say this, but I think the idea was for the "hero/ine" that is Hawke (i.e. us) to rethink the idea of Mage freedom, especially when guys like Quentin and Anders are allowed to run free and end up causing Havoc, Spirit-powered abomination or not.

Actually, Mary Kirby outright said the Quentin plotline was supposed to give the players a reason to feel personally wronged by a mage in a post probably a year or more ago.

Well, that worked out wonderfully, didn't it? Personally, at that point, I just went, "Oh, great, yet another death in the family. Overdramatic much?" Bear in mind I had also lost Carver in the Deep Roads because I had not brought Anders with me (and I was slightly amused by Bethany's ridiculous death scene at the beginning of the game). So instead of being an excuse to become more personally invested in the Templar v. Mage struggle it did the exact opposite, finally convincing me Kirkwall was more of a caricature of this conflict and that I couldn't possibly take it seriously.

[spinachdiaper]

Hawke had no personality and all his/her actions felt meaningless

[The Six Path of Pain]

Haha Hawke was destined to be an absolute failure. Can't really say I feel sorry for Hawke either /: