301 réponses à ce sujet

[ames4u]

Hawke is not a hero in my POV.

I can not be the only one who sees Hawke as nothing more than a gopher doing b*tch work for every lazy s.o.b around Kirkwall right? Because, quite frankly, nothing Hawke did made a difference because the plot went LOL! Nope! Everybody who matters dies! Ergo, no hero are you. 

I mean, he/she couldn't even protect that one elven lady who had a psycho blood mage for an ex partner. I was screaming at the tv when I saw them doing precisely what they shouldn't be doing when someones life is at risk! All Hawke had to do was protect one person. One freaking person and Hawke couldn't even do that right! They were all too busy picking their effing nails to, you know, watch her like they were supposed to! Like they promised her!

At every turn you are c*ckblocked by the effing story and Hawkes stupid @ss! I have played some downright stupid and dislikable characters in my lifetime-but by god Hawke was by far the effing worst! Even their 'personality' was complete BS, because unless you are going strictly for one type of response the whole way through the game, you will be derailed from one into the other if you even remotely sneeze at any other option. Which completely effed up immersion and my attempts to role play a certain kind of character.

Modifié par ames4u, 05 février 2014 - 12:20 .

[superdeathdealer14]

ames4u wrote...

Hawke is not a hero in my POV.

I can not be the only one who sees Hawke as nothing more than a gopher doing b*tch work for every lazy s.o.b around Kirkwall right? Because, quite frankly, nothing Hawke did made a difference because the plot went LOL! Nope! Everybody who matters dies! Ergo, no hero are you. 

I mean, he/she couldn't even protect that one elven lady who had a psycho blood mage for an ex partner. I was screaming at the tv when I saw them doing precisely what they shouldn't be doing when someones life is at risk! All Hawke had to do was protect one person. One freaking person and Hawke couldn't even do that right! They were all too busy picking their effing nails to, you know, watch her like they were supposed to! Like they promised her!

Good let the Hawke hate flow through you.

[SgtSteel91]

I see that Hawke can be played as similar to Nier. I wonder how some of the people here would feel about that character if they played that game...

[ames4u]

superdeathdealer14 wrote...

ames4u wrote...

Hawke is not a hero in my POV.

I can not be the only one who sees Hawke as nothing more than a gopher doing b*tch work for every lazy s.o.b around Kirkwall right? Because, quite frankly, nothing Hawke did made a difference because the plot went LOL! Nope! Everybody who matters dies! Ergo, no hero are you. 

I mean, he/she couldn't even protect that one elven lady who had a psycho blood mage for an ex partner. I was screaming at the tv when I saw them doing precisely what they shouldn't be doing when someones life is at risk! All Hawke had to do was protect one person. One freaking person and Hawke couldn't even do that right! They were all too busy picking their effing nails to, you know, watch her like they were supposed to! Like they promised her!

Good let the Hawke hate flow through you.

Sorry, I had to edit a bit more of my post. But they are valid grievances.

I have never in all my life hated a character half as much as I hate Hawke. The t*t just didn't stand a chance with that @ss backwards dialogue system that derails if you so much as sneeze in the general direction of a choice other than the 'personality' you are shooting for. Which completely effs up immersion for me and prevented me from role playing my Hawke a certain way. But by far the worst offences committed are the ones lodged up the hairy @rse of the 'plot'.

In the end I was constantly asking myself, why am I even here? Clearly I'm not making any difference no matter how many times I try to moon the 'plot', so what's the effing point of Hawke?

Modifié par ames4u, 05 février 2014 - 12:12 .

[Hazegurl]

KaiserShep wrote...

LinksOcarina wrote...

Hawke is not a tragic hero, his flaws were not a part of his rise and he never had a fall.

Hawke is, however, not superman, which makes him a lot more human and incapable of changing the tide of fate. I respect BioWare for going in that direction, even if it lead to some pretty awkward moments in Dragon Age II.

I actually enjoyed Hawke's character for this. I like to characterize my Hawke for being in this primarily for the money (demanded payment from Fenris in the beginning, the Vicount, etc.), since Kirkwall was just a last option to escape the Blight anyway. All that Champion stuff was for the birds, but killing riffraff for more money seems like a good enough deal.

This is basically my canon Hawke. Total money grubber. Although later he wanted to change Kirkwall for the better but once it seemed clear Meredith wasn't going to step aside and let the nobles decide to make him Viscount he just let it go and planned to make some more money before hoping on a ship back to Fereldan. i like to think that's where my Viscount Hawke "disappeared" to.

[KaiserShep]

Hazegurl wrote...
This is basically my canon Hawke. Total money grubber. Although later he wanted to change Kirkwall for the better but once it seemed clear Meredith wasn't going to step aside and let the nobles decide to make him Viscount he just let it go and planned to make some more money before hoping on a ship back to Fereldan. i like to think that's where my Viscount Hawke "disappeared" to.

I guess enjoyment of this character really depends on your personality. I typically do not take a lot of things seriously, and will just go with the flow when it suits me, so when Hawke is unable to save people he/she made a promise to, my stance on that is "sh*t happens, but I get to kill another murderer, AND loot their bodies." That meshes nicely with my Hawke, who runs off with the pirate in the end. 

Modifié par KaiserShep, 05 février 2014 - 12:48 .

[Shevy]

Hopefully references to Hawke in DA:I won't portray him as an hero because he clearly wasn't one.

Modifié par Shevy_001, 05 février 2014 - 01:29 .

[KaiserShep]

Why not? Hawke did actually help to save a lot of people, and put a lot of very awful people out of their misery.

Modifié par KaiserShep, 05 février 2014 - 01:36 .

[CybAnt1]

The t*t just didn't stand a chance with that @ss backwards dialogue system that derails if you so much as sneeze in the general direction of a choice other than the 'personality' you are shooting for. 

This ^^^^

But alas, beware the people on the other side of the Force.

The biggest problem I had with Hawke the hero isn't how he's written, it's the game mechanics that put him out of my control. Or, perhaps, only give me control over guiding him down the path of the 3 emotional states he's capable of. 

[Heimdall]

I find all this vitriol directed at Hawke to be a bit misplaced, especially where her "heroism" is concerned. Hawke saved quite a few people. The rage people express because there are some situations Hawke simply can't solve strikes me as a bit petulant. Certainly roleplaying was more limited than Origins, but people seem to let that cloud their perception of Hawke. I thought the tonal restrictions were constraining too. I just don't think having a character that doesn't resolve every situation they come across like some Demi-god savior like the Warden makes them unheroic.

[Lotion Soronarr]

drake heath wrote...

So, Hawke's a tool who has no influence on anything, can't change the outcome of anything, and is slave to the plot?

Hawke has influence.
Changing the outcome to what you want is a completely different matter.
Choice of action and choice of result are not the same.
Control of choice and control of the plot are different things.

Also, the PC is a slave of the plot in every CRPG.


I don't like DA2, but I like arguments like yours even less.

[Reaverwind]

AutumnWitch wrote...

Think about this. (I will refer to Hawke as "she" as I played her as female, so don't get offended please)

She did not save her sister.

She did not salvage the relationship with her brother.

She did not save her mother.

She most likely brought war to The Free Marches due to TWO her actions.

1. Killing the Arishok.

2. Killing (and stealing from) a high ranking Orlesian noble. (Duke Prosper)

You forgot a third: Enabling a terrorist. Tragic hero? Hardly. Tragic schmuck is more like it.

[KaiserShep]

Lord Aesir wrote...

I find all this vitriol directed at Hawke to be a bit misplaced, especially where her "heroism" is concerned. Hawke saved quite a few people. The rage people express because there are some situations Hawke simply can't solve strikes me as a bit petulant. Certainly roleplaying was more limited than Origins, but people seem to let that cloud their perception of Hawke. I thought the tonal restrictions were constraining too. I just don't think having a character that doesn't resolve every situation they come across like some Demi-god savior like the Warden makes them unheroic.

I agree. Hawke could be self-serving, or be helpful, but suddenly none of that matters because a bad guy beats her to the punch, or characters are scripted to be too stubborn to be sufficiently influenced, like Anders, Orsino and Meredith.

I do like how in Origins, you could do quite a lot of awful things, and still become the Hero of Ferelden.

AutumnWitch wrote...
She most likely brought war to The Free Marches due to TWO her actions.

1. Killing the Arishok.

2. Killing (and stealing from) a high ranking Orlesian noble. (Duke Prosper)

1. You mean killing the same person that orchestrated an assault on the city, and MURDERED the Viscount? I see absolutely nothing wrong with putting a knife in him. The qun's demands that I give a nug's left testicle fall upon deaf ears.

2. The Duke pretty much deserved his trip down the cliff.

Reaverwind wrote...

You forgot a third: Enabling a terrorist. Tragic hero? Hardly. Tragic schmuck is more like it.

If your Hawke blindly accepts what Anders says and accepts the quest, sure. Mine didn't. Did yours? 

Modifié par KaiserShep, 05 février 2014 - 02:55 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Veruin wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...
They make sense being that their simular plot elements that the player can't change.

There's a difference between having the knowledge to try and change the plot rather than being "Lolnope, you can't do anything"
  
That is where the teeth gnashing occurs.

Leandra's death is example.

Because the PC is clayvorant and knows exactly that the kilelr is after his mother?

Because "investigation" automaticly means instant result and coming on time?

You say Hawke could have stopped it. What makes you so sure?

[Shevy]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Veruin wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...
They make sense being that their simular plot elements that the player can't change.

There's a difference between having the knowledge to try and change the plot rather than being "Lolnope, you can't do anything"
  
That is where the teeth gnashing occurs.

Leandra's death is example.

Because the PC is clayvorant and knows exactly that the kilelr is after his mother?

Because "investigation" automaticly means instant result and coming on time?

You say Hawke could have stopped it. What makes you so sure?

Before Leandra got kidnapped Hawke could only make assumptions, but just a simple dialogue line like "Watch out mum, there is a serial killer in town who specializes on wealthy, older, single women" would've made it way better for me. The outcome could've been the same, but at least Hawke wouldn't appear as a passive, blind failure.

And it's this plot demanded passiveness and lack of influence (reporting Anders as Champion and nothing happens in a town where every mage seems to be crazy and the templars are very cautious) that make Hawke a walking failure in my view.

Yeah, he saves a few people here and there, but his passiveness kills way more.

Modifié par Shevy_001, 05 février 2014 - 02:55 .

[KaiserShep]

It bears reminding that Kirkwall is a murder hole with bandits and thugs that prowl about at night. Statistically, Leandra would likely be just as prone to being murder-knifed in front of the Hawke estate at night as she is being dragged off by a lunatic necromancer. Telling someone who lives in such a city "Hey, watch out for serial killers" could only be met with "No sh*t, Sherlock". In any case, the series of murders specific to Emeric's investigation actually spans a few years at this point, and in a city where murder is quite common, these things just won't be as close to the chest to a character that isn't really involved in it for such a long period of time. Hell, what city dweller remembers serial killers that don't make big names for themselves in the media? 

How exactly is Hawke to blame for the templars' failure? What's he/she to do, go down to Darktown, drag Anders to the Gallows and say "Here's Timothy McMage! Nab 'im"?

Modifié par KaiserShep, 05 février 2014 - 03:08 .

[MisterJB]

That would be a nice option. We can already tell Anders to leave and not come back; he leaves the party but returns to destroy the Chantry; so why not an option to lead Templars to Darktown?
Anders could just escape, do the deed and the plot would still go on as it needed but, at least, Hawke would have taken an active stance.

[KaiserShep]

Seems odd that an order like the templars would need Hawke to literally hold their hand all the way down to Darktown, even when it's made clear that they know who he/she is talking about. Also, if you refuse his initial quest and don't bother talking to him, you have even less to tell the templars. If anything, what really did them in was the incompetence of both the templars and the chantry.

Modifié par KaiserShep, 05 février 2014 - 03:10 .

[SgtSteel91]

Headcanon it then. Use a little imagination.

[Shevy]

KaiserShep wrote...

How exactly is Hawke to blame for the templars' failure? What's he/she to do, go down to Darktown, drag Anders to the Gallows and say "Here's Timothy McMage! Nab 'im"?

It shows that he has a title that's worth nothing. That he's only an errant-boy without influence and it doesn't matter what he does. Maybe playing such a person for you was fun, for me it was only annoying. 

He is only free to react when it's too late anyway. Not one situation where you were allowed to be pro-active or do preventative actions. Clearly game design flaws, but since your character can only evolve in the limit of game design, he appears as useless toy.

MotA ending is a prime example. The only thing Hawke is good at is killing things. And then, this killing machine doesn't even try to get the Qunari list from a weak elf. He just asks for it, get rejected and goes "ok :(". If the plot demands that Tallis escapes with the item, include a cinematic where Hawke actually tries but get disoriented by a "smoke grenade" or stopped by some of Duke's rear guard or what have you.

How it's handled though, Hawke appears as a worthless piece of crap.

Modifié par Shevy_001, 05 février 2014 - 03:18 .

[Shevy]

KaiserShep wrote...

It bears reminding that Kirkwall is a murder hole with bandits and thugs that prowl about at night. Statistically, Leandra would likely be just as prone to being murder-knifed in front of the Hawke estate at night as she is being dragged off by a lunatic necromancer. Telling someone who lives in such a city "Hey, watch out for serial killers" could only be met with "No sh*t, Sherlock". In any case, the series of murders specific to Emeric's investigation actually spans a few years at this point, and in a city where murder is quite common, these things just won't be as close to the chest to a character that isn't really involved in it for such a long period of time. Hell, what city dweller remembers serial killers that don't make big names for themselves in the media? 

Leandra states one or two conversations earlier that she got to know someone. In this case, yes, this little warning would've done much, at least for me. Let it be the experience in games and films, but I knew at exactly this moment she is going to get kidnapped/killed by that guy.

As I said, I don't need a "solve everything" hero, but at least options to try to do something.

Modifié par Shevy_001, 05 février 2014 - 03:17 .

[KaiserShep]

I think the issue is more with Meredith's sudden thrust of this "title" in the first place. Until the word was uttered, who in town even talked about such a thing as a Champion of Kirkwall? It wasn't something Hawke sought after, let alone be aware of until the qunari were dealt with. At times it's treated like a purely ceremonial title, and others it's arbitrarily given more weight when the rest of them can't decide what to do with themselves. Again, this is more the problem with the templars, the Circle, the Chantry and the city guard. I could argue that Kirkwall was being run by the crazy and stupid alike, and Hawke was caught in all of their BS.

Of course, if not for Hawke, the elven fanatic would have successfully poisoned a large portion of the city, and the qunari would have overrun the place with no hope of them leaving, and likely killed a lot more than what was lost already.

Modifié par KaiserShep, 05 février 2014 - 03:22 .

[Hiemoth]

While I do not completely agree with the list of things OP feels that Hawke is responsible for, I do agree that Hawke is one of the more tragic in gaming, especially in Bioware's games. Yet at the same time, that made him/her so much more heroic to me personally.

The Warden always a tragic beginning and the order always faces the betrayal at Ostagar, but after that the Warden basically goes from victory to victory with all the losses being mostly impersonal and tangential. All the while there is the great evil to be defeated and the lives of millions driving them forward. Don't get me wrong, heroic Warden is still heroic, but I never felt DAO never made it heavy or difficult to be that character.

Hawke, in turn, loses something at every turn. His/her home village and sibling to the Blight. The remaining sibling in return to managing to finally restore their family status. Mother to the insane serial killer by sheer chance. Help the Qunari mage escape, watch him kill himself. Try to help the Viscount reconcile with his son, both die inglorious deaths. Go out of his/her way to stop the conflict with the Qunari, fail at that. Yet, when playing the heroic Hawke, s/he continues on on trying to do that right thing, to always save those who can be saved, no matter how much the world pushes him/her down or takes from him/her. S/he simply does not break down, doesn't allow that change him/her. I always found so much beauty in that story, which, to repeat myself, Hawke always felt such a bigger character to me than the Warden.

Also, in this discussion, and in general when discussing DA2, I think that the difficulty becomes when the standard for heroic is what they did, not what they attempted and at what risk. With games, it is kind of understandable due to the medium, to have such an approach, but it also limits the discussion and writing of games to a very large degree.

[KaiserShep]

Hiemoth wrote...

The Warden always a tragic beginning and the order always faces the betrayal at Ostagar, but after that the Warden basically goes from victory to victory with all the losses being mostly impersonal and tangential. All the while there is the great evil to be defeated and the lives of millions driving them forward. Don't get me wrong, heroic Warden is still heroic, but I never felt DAO never made it heavy or difficult to be that character.

A good example of this is Connor. Killing Connor isn't even so much a matter of convenience, because you have to go to the Circle of Magi anyway. If the Warden had Hawke's luck, he/she would get to the Circle, save it, ask the First Enchanter for help, and the boy would probably have been possessed and have to be killed, or Isolde up and did save-Connor-sepukku or something. Then the Warden would be blamed for being too slow.

Modifié par KaiserShep, 05 février 2014 - 04:43 .

[Ieldra]

Shevy_001 wrote...

KaiserShep wrote...

It bears reminding that Kirkwall is a murder hole with bandits and thugs that prowl about at night. Statistically, Leandra would likely be just as prone to being murder-knifed in front of the Hawke estate at night as she is being dragged off by a lunatic necromancer. Telling someone who lives in such a city "Hey, watch out for serial killers" could only be met with "No sh*t, Sherlock". In any case, the series of murders specific to Emeric's investigation actually spans a few years at this point, and in a city where murder is quite common, these things just won't be as close to the chest to a character that isn't really involved in it for such a long period of time. Hell, what city dweller remembers serial killers that don't make big names for themselves in the media? 

Leandra states one or two conversations earlier that she got to know someone. In this case, yes, this little warning would've done much, at least for me. Let it be the experience in games and films, but I knew at exactly this moment she is going to get kidnapped/killed by that guy.

As I said, I don't need a "solve everything" hero, but at least options to try to do something.

Maybe you knew, but Hawke doesn't know they're in a story, most of the time anyway. I agree there are some situations with contrived stupidity, but this is not one of them. In this case, the time frame of the story makes it plausible that Hawke doesn't make the connection, but you don't feel the time passing so you make it immediately. It is a storytelling problem that needed to be addressed but it's not forced stupidity.

In general, I found Hawke's story to be refreshingly different, for once it's not a pure power fantasy where everything eventually falls into the protagonist's lap, and I never felt that Hawke was presented as incompetent to make the story like that. You say "they should've known" but hindsight is always perfect.