301 réponses à ce sujet

[Adanu]

drake heath wrote...

Hawke was a foolish puppet whose entire life consisted of being around and doing the bidding of far more important people, basically just being strung along by the plot with no impact or relevance.

Hawke could have literally been anyone, it would not have made a difference, Hawke could have died in Lothering and nothing would have changed.

I hope he ends up dead in a ditch, a pointless death for a pointless protagonist.

lol..... no.

[KaiserShep]

Ieldra2 wrote...
In general, I found Hawke's story to be refreshingly different, for once it's not a pure power fantasy where everything eventually falls into the protagonist's lap, and I never felt that Hawke was presented as incompetent to make the story like that. You say "they should've known" but hindsight is always perfect.  

As far as incompetence moments go, I'd say that Shepard easily beats Hawke. I can't recall any specifically from ME1 exactly, but ME2 and 3 certainly have a fair share of "C'mon Shep, you had one job" moments, whereas I can't really say the same about Hawke. I think this character is not given nearly as much credit as he/she deserves.

Modifié par KaiserShep, 05 février 2014 - 06:52 .

[Aaleel]

At the end of the day Hawke is what he/she was. The Warden to me felt like I was writing my own story, and Hawke felt like exactly what it was, listening/ watching someone else's already written story.

But man, I really disliked DA2 in general but I don't have the disdain for Hawke that some off you guys do. I didn't know people hated him/her this much.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

 It's not all bad for Hawke, IMO.

Ilda, my rogue FemHawke, sides with the mages and wins a fight she has no business winning -- and gets her sis back.

And my force-mage ****** did really well for himself -- rising to Viscount with both king of Fereldan and Starkhaven in his pocket. Destroying Merrill's world along the way -- from mirror, to clan, to her life -- also makes for a feel-good story! ^.^

Modifié par HYR 2.0, 05 février 2014 - 09:21 .

[Rotward]

More like lamest villain ever. Hawkes obviously the bad guy, and Meredith is the tragic hero.

[Eternal Phoenix]

DRTJR wrote...

Hawke will one day be a forgotten footnote in history where as the Warden will be remembered along-side Ferelden's Once and Future King. We played the Galahad to Alister's King Arthur, Hawke will play a part in the History as a friend and companion of either Sebastian Vael, or Anders. Nothing more or less.

Not to mention The Warden could kill the archdemon going down in history as a legend and even more so if they took the dark ritual and survived. It's also possible for them to become prince-consort/queen, again going down in history as someone important (and supposedly ushering in a golden era for Fereldan that had not been seen for centuries). Not to mention the dwarf being able to become a Paragon and all the other optional achievements (finding of the ashes of Andraste, defeating Loghain, leading the army of Fereldan against the darkspawn and becoming Warden-Commander).

Hawke's only real success is repelling the qunari from Kirkwall. The mage-templar conflict was not resolved and spiraled out of control. In fact, Hawke could easily be seen as Anders' right hand man which is exactly what Cassandra saw him as so there's no telling what others will be thinking of Hawke in DA:I.

[LinksOcarina]

Elton John is dead wrote...

DRTJR wrote...

Hawke will one day be a forgotten footnote in history where as the Warden will be remembered along-side Ferelden's Once and Future King. We played the Galahad to Alister's King Arthur, Hawke will play a part in the History as a friend and companion of either Sebastian Vael, or Anders. Nothing more or less.

Not to mention The Warden could kill the archdemon going down in history as a legend and even more so if they took the dark ritual and survived. It's also possible for them to become prince-consort/queen, again going down in history as someone important (and supposedly ushering in a golden era for Fereldan that had not been seen for centuries). Not to mention the dwarf being able to become a Paragon and all the other optional achievements (finding of the ashes of Andraste, defeating Loghain, leading the army of Fereldan against the darkspawn and becoming Warden-Commander).

Hawke's only real success is repelling the qunari from Kirkwall. The mage-templar conflict was not resolved and spiraled out of control. In fact, Hawke could easily be seen as Anders' right hand man which is exactly what Cassandra saw him as so there's no telling what others will be thinking of Hawke in DA:I.

Hawke is obviously important to the seekers and those involved with the current conflict in Thedas...id say Hawke and the legacy Hawke leaves behind is paramount to anything that happens in kirkwall, for good or ill. Like you say, hawke can be the right hand man of Anders, or the savior against the mages, or both, its very murky. 

[KaiserShep]

Elton John is dead wrote...
Not to mention The Warden could kill the archdemon going down in history as a legend and even more so if they took the dark ritual and survived. It's also possible for them to become prince-consort/queen, again going down in history as someone important (and supposedly ushering in a golden era for Fereldan that had not been seen for centuries). Not to mention the dwarf being able to become a Paragon and all the other optional achievements (finding of the ashes of Andraste, defeating Loghain, leading the army of Fereldan against the darkspawn and becoming Warden-Commander).

Hawke's only real success is repelling the qunari from Kirkwall. The mage-templar conflict was not resolved and spiraled out of control. In fact, Hawke could easily be seen as Anders' right hand man which is exactly what Cassandra saw him as so there's no telling what others will be thinking of Hawke in DA:I.

 

It seems a bit unfair to compare a regular soldier refugee stuck in a former Tevinter harbor city to a person who is conscripted into an anti-archdemon order.

Anyway, I don't see how this detracts from Hawke's character. It seems like suddenly a character is not worth much unless it has wide sweeping powers over most of what it surveys around here.

This makes me wonder what the general consensus will be on the next ME's protagonist if it doesn't have as much influence as Shepard.

Modifié par KaiserShep, 06 février 2014 - 02:31 .

[Ieldra]

KaiserShep wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
In general, I found Hawke's story to be refreshingly different, for once it's not a pure power fantasy where everything eventually falls into the protagonist's lap, and I never felt that Hawke was presented as incompetent to make the story like that. You say "they should've known" but hindsight is always perfect.  

As far as incompetence moments go, I'd say that Shepard easily beats Hawke. I can't recall any specifically from ME1 exactly, but ME2 and 3 certainly have a fair share of "C'mon Shep, you had one job" moments, whereas I can't really say the same about Hawke. I think this character is not given nearly as much credit as he/she deserves.

Absolutely. ME3 made every effort to make Shepard "not mine" by their stupidity and arbitrary drama, but I really like my Hawkes, they feel like they're my characters and they don't feel incompetent. All right, I don't have as much freedom as with the Wardens, but I have enough that I can actually - oh, the heresy hereabouts - like them.

I disliked that Hawke's efforts were destined to fail in so many things, from saving the mages in Act I to killing Corypheus in Legacy (if it is indeed true that he survived by possessing the surviving Warden), but as a character they worked well. They didn't offer a lot of power, but they offered a great deal of freedom for my imagination especially when compared to Shepard.

I think many complaints about Hawke are rooted in the fact that they couldn't bend the world to their will, rather than the rare instances of contrived stupidity. Meanwhile, I liked exactly that about them, and in my perception, they weren't any less badass for it because it was always others who f*cked things up again after Hawke was done. If the perversity of the universe works against you, that doesn't reflect badly on you.

Having said that, I think Bioware should aim for a better balance of diverging and converging outcomes, especially in the bigger plotlines. Making you feel that your characters' efforts are ultimately largely futile is not a good recipe for satisfaction. For instance, in DA2, there could've been a visual epilogue detailing some results of Hawke's decisions for Kirkwall. Instead, we got a one-sentence divergence on identical pictures.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 06 février 2014 - 01:10 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

KaiserShep wrote...
Anyway, I don't see how this detracts from Hawke's character. It seems like suddenly a character is not worth much unless it has wide sweeping powers over most of what it surveys around here.

This makes me wonder what the general consensus will be on the next ME's protagonist if it doesn't have as much influence as Shepard.

Agreed.

When DA2 was announced people were complaning that "saving the world" is boring and cliche.
Then, when they geta story where sou dont' save the world they compaing the main character is not "a hero".

So..what is a hero pray tell?

Saving people and influencing lives is not enough apprently. No, it must be done on a huge scale. Otehrwise, you're a nobody.

You must be saving/dooming entire towns or races o na regular basis. Deciding the fate of kings. Swating dragons and armies like flies. Hot members of the opposite (or not) sex must swarm over you, begging for the ride on your loveboat.

Truly, only this makes one a her and "interesting".

[Anvos]

Part of the problem with calling Hawke a tragic hero or hero in general falls on the fact that when his scope of influence is largely ONE city and for half the game your among the wealthiest and most powerful/famous people in the city you aren't really able to use that wealth and power and keep getting hit with three year periods of lethargy where you forget you have the wealth and power to influence the city for those years.

Modifié par Anvos, 06 février 2014 - 01:55 .

[TheKomandorShepard]

Shepard more incompetent than hawke oh thats good just compare what shepard achieved and what hawke
ultimately shepard achieves success in every game and through game (but here depends on player where he did good job where he screwd) hawke on other hand achieved nothing (things would end same or even better without him) hell he did more mess and damage. Hawke was failure as his life was , he was nothing more than pawn to petrice , arishok , meredith/orsino , flemeth and tallis and nothing you could done about that. 

Game gives you only illusion of choice where every choice leads to that same failure.

[Anvos]

Also the topic's main claim seems to forget Hawke has to compete with EVERY Grey Warden in history who made the Ultimate Sacrafice.

[Ieldra]

Anvos wrote...
Part of the problem with calling Hawke a tragic hero or hero in general falls on the fact that when his scope of influence is largely ONE city and for half the game your among the wealthiest and most powerful/famous people in the city you aren't really able to use that wealth and power and keep getting hit with three year periods of lethargy where you forget you have the wealth and power to influence the city for those years.

This is incorrect. What Hawke did in those years is left to our imagination. What the story tells us is that whatever they did - be it nothing or incessant politicking - didn't make a significant difference in the outcomes. Also, Hawke did a few very significant things like killing the Arishok, which was the event that made the qunari leave, and Hawke's growing influence becomes quite apparent in Act 2 when the viscount asks for their help. That would've been unimaginable in Act 1.

Yet again, if the perversity of the universe works against you that doesn't reflect badly on you.

[jtav]

And you know it's a lot easier to sympathize with someone struggling against cruel fate than someone who gets everything handed to them by the plot. I don't like Shep, but I'm fiercely protective of Hawke.

[Ieldra]

In the context of this debate, I would like to mention that achievements are irrelevant for characterization. ME's Shepard saved the galaxy, but he was written as a stupid grunt (prologue) with moments of even more stupid drama (post-Thessia) so that I fail to see any merit in their achievements. The way things were written in ME3, Shepard's achievements came from bullying, other people implausibly believing his baseless assertions and he believing implausible things at the drop of a hat, being at the right moment at the right time, and a great dose of dumb luck.

Meanwhile, Hawke's achievments are outbalanced by the unfortunate outcomes of their other actions, but most of the time they go about things in a reasonably straightforward way, and their more doubtful moments are nowhere remotely near Shepard's in the level of sheer mind-numbing stupidity expressed.

Since characterization is hugely important to me, and achievements less important than actual attempts to achieve something, even if they fail in the end due to the universe's perversity, I have a much easier time playing my different Hawkes and they feel much more like my characters.

Note that Hawke still compares unfavorable with DAO's Warden in this, but the Warden's achievements have absolutely nothing to do with it, rather than the higher degree of player agency I have over the workings of my Warden's minds and speech.

Edit:
Also, what jtav said. If I still like my Shepards, that's in spite of how they were written, not because of it. My mage revolutionary female Hawke, however, her I like unreservedly, as I do my main Warden.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 06 février 2014 - 02:27 .

[Anvos]

The Arishok would have died at Kirkwall regardless of Hawke, as he didn't have the forces to support a long term occupation and it would be far easier for support to arrive for Kirkwall before a message could get to the Qunari and they could reorganize forces from the war with Tevintar to support him (especially since he likely doesn't have the book without Hawke).

Alternatively he may have just ended up assassinated by a strike force of powerful Tevintar Magisters to stop the qunari from gaining a suitable landing zone.

Modifié par Anvos, 06 février 2014 - 02:29 .

[Ieldra]

Anvos wrote...
The Arishok would have died at Kirkwall regardless of Hawke, as he didn't have the forces to support a long term occupation and it would be far easier for support to arrive for Kirkwall before a message could get to the Qunari an they could reorganize forces from the war with Tevintar to support him (especially since he likely doesn't have the book without Hawke).

Alternatively he may have just ended up assassinated by a strike force of powerful Tevintar Magisters to stop the qunari from gaining a suitable landing zone.

Note how you're pulling possibilities out of your ass to make Hawke's achievements irrelevant. A clear case of "I didn't like them, so whatever they did didn't mean anything". Reason is indeed the slave of the passions. "Things could've happened another way" is never a good argument to make,  because well, they didn't.

Also, note how the viscount said that if the Arishok wanted to capture Kirkwall, he would do so, and how the city didn't have the means to force the issue.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 06 février 2014 - 02:32 .

[KaiserShep]

Saying that the Arishok would have died at Kirkwall regardless of Hawke is the same as saying that Kaidan or Ashley would have saved the galaxy just as well as Shepard if he/she did not pull him/her from the beacon on Eden Prime. It's simply not possible to know for certain.

Maybe Flemeth would have swooped down on Kirkwall and killed him herself, and she'd be the Champion, or Bartrand's ghost possessed his mind and made him jump off a cliff.

I agree with jtav. I'm pretty protective of the Hawke character, because it seems that the primary complaint seems to have little to do with the character's merit, but rather scope of influence, which does not determine whether the protagonist is or isn't a hero. I think all this hate for Hawke is making me like him/her more than Shepard.

Modifié par KaiserShep, 06 février 2014 - 02:33 .

[Anvos]

Not really as even as Hawke was heading to the palace it was evident it was only a matter of time before Meridith regrouped the Templars and town guards. Plus super saiyan Templar is stronger than horn head with swords.

[Aaleel]

People are framing this debate with the extremes, there actually is something in-between all powerful and able to affect everything and almost powerless unable to change hardly anything. You can make someone face adversity without having it be ALL bad, which was pretty much Hawke.

Bioware tried to make a dark personal story but they took it too far. Family didn't feel like family because they weren't there to be your family they were there to just be taken away to make the game darker for example.

[KaiserShep]

This is not something we can know for certain. We can speculate all day, but it doesn't matter. We do not know that the guards, the Knight-Commander and her templars could successfully take down the Arishok as well as his entourage before every noble and politician in the keep was slaughtered.

This argument can be made against the Warden as well. Hell, the fact that the Warden has multiple origins to choose from makes it even more obvious. It could've been a dwarf commoner, or a noble, or a Dalish or city elf. It's possible that Alistair could have led the band of companions without another Warden and still saved Ferelden.

[Aaleel]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Anvos wrote...
The Arishok would have died at Kirkwall regardless of Hawke, as he didn't have the forces to support a long term occupation and it would be far easier for support to arrive for Kirkwall before a message could get to the Qunari an they could reorganize forces from the war with Tevintar to support him (especially since he likely doesn't have the book without Hawke).

Alternatively he may have just ended up assassinated by a strike force of powerful Tevintar Magisters to stop the qunari from gaining a suitable landing zone.

Note how you're pulling possibilities out of your ass to make Hawke's achievements irrelevant. A clear case of "I didn't like them, so whatever they did didn't mean anything". Reason is indeed the slave of the passions. "Things could've happened another way" is never a good argument to make,  because well, they didn't.

Also, note how the viscount said that if the Arishok wanted to capture Kirkwall, he would do so, and how the city didn't have the means to force the issue.

the quantity didn't have the forces to hold Kirkwall especially once the Templars and city guard organized.  Reinforcements would have come eventually as well, far before qunari reinforcements arrived.  The Arishok doesn't seem like one to flee to live another day either.  He would have died there.  It's not a stretch.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Ieldra2 wrote...

In the context of this debate, I would like to mention that achievements are irrelevant for characterization. ME's Shepard saved the galaxy, but he was written as a stupid grunt (prologue) with moments of even more stupid drama (post-Thessia) so that I fail to see any merit in their achievements. The way things were written in ME3, Shepard's achievements came from bullying, other people implausibly believing his baseless assertions and he believing implausible things at the drop of a hat, being at the right moment at the right time, and a great dose of dumb luck.

Meanwhile, Hawke's achievments are outbalanced by the unfortunate outcomes of their other actions, but most of the time they go about things in a reasonably straightforward way, and their more doubtful moments are nowhere remotely near Shepard's in the level of sheer mind-numbing stupidity expressed.

Since characterization is hugely important to me, and achievements less important than actual attempts to achieve something, even if they fails in the end due to the universe's perversity, I have a much easier time playing my different Hawkes and they feel much more like my characters.

Note that Hawke still compares unfavorable with DAO's Warden in this, but the Warden's achievements have absolutely nothing to do with it, rather than the higher degree of player agency I have over the workings of my Warden's minds and speech.

Edit:
Also, what jtav said. If I still like my Shepards, that's in spite of how they were written, not because of it.

Wha how achievements are irrelevant they are part of character as far i renember shepard had moments of failure and moments success (and as i said here coming player decisions) hawke was just bulit for drama drama drama and end of the game oh drama they tried squeeze drama everywhere.It is bad when shooter with elements of rpg presents more significant and influential choices than game should be full rpg. 

"Shepard's achievements came from bullying, other people implausibly
believing his baseless assertions and he believing implausible things at
the drop of a hat, being at the right moment at the right time, and a
great dose of dumb luck."
Wha x2? Not rly in first game shepard achived what he achived thans to his skills and crew luck was here as well state but this is in case everywhere... in second game he was forced to work with shady person and well third game do i have to mention that .

Do i agree that mass effect had ****ty moments just for drama yes but in da 2 is wasn't just moments thats entire game...  

Haha yes especially that 1000 moments when hawke is moron or even retarded just to create more drama...

To be honest im not shepard lover myself but when compare shepard to hawke i can put that shepard was better because despite he didn't exactly had control over events in me universe his choices affected them and his person as well he would screw up or do something properly it is up to player sometimes she was forced to screw up other not and in other was up to player. Much better than enforced failure hawke where all his choices lead to that same very failure and his life make things worse or just don't affect anything.  
 

[KaiserShep]

Reinforcements from where?