301 réponses à ce sujet

[Aaleel]

KaiserShep wrote...

Reinforcements from where?

Anywhere they have Templars.  Same way they would have called in more Templars in Origins during the Broken Circle quest to execute the right of annulment if you didn't change the knight commanders mind.

I honestly doubt they would have held the city once Meredith organized her resources there.  The Qunari used a surprise attack, made a bee line through the city and took hostages.  They would have lost the only question is how many nobles would have died in the meantime.

Modifié par Aaleel, 06 février 2014 - 02:50 .

[KaiserShep]

And so Hawke's intervention mitigated the effects of their assault, so I don't see the problem with this character. Whether or not Meredith or the remainder of the city guard could successfully call for reinforcements or save as many people in the keep without Hawke is neither here or there. Again, it's all speculation. All that matters is what happened, not what could have happened.

Modifié par KaiserShep, 06 février 2014 - 03:00 .

[KaiserShep]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

Haha yes especially that 1000 moments when hawke is moron or even retarded just to create more drama...

Yes, 1,000 moments in a game that is only maybe 30+ hours long on a completionist playthrough. Nothing hyperbolic about that at all.

Loath as I am to ask this, I'm curious. What specific moments in the game can you recall that make you think that Hawke was such a monumental moron? Mind you, this must also account for actions you can outright refuse to do in the game, like helping Anders gather materials, and distracting the Grand Cleric, for example.

[Aaleel]

KaiserShep wrote...

And so Hawke's intervention mitigated the effects of their assault, so I don't see the problem with this character. Whether or not Meredith or the remainder of the city guard could successfully call for reinforcements or save as many people in the keep without Hawke is neither here or there. Again, it's all speculation. All that matters is what happened, not what could have happened.

Yes we do the game pretty much says it.  Qunari attack the city and once Meredith shows up, Orsino shows up as well and they start planning a counter offensive.  IIRC to only reason they don't outright storm the place is because of the hostages.  

I already said in earlier posts that I think the disdain for Hawke is out there and people are looking at this in extremes.  But I don't see how anyone can look at the circumstances in game and say the Qunari had the forces to occupy the city.  The entirety of their remaining forces were pretty much in one room.

[KaiserShep]

This doesn't refute the fact that Hawke's involvement softened the blow of the qunari attack, and it's very unlikely that anyone else would have been able to resolve the situation that simply had the remainder of the Arishok's forces leave the city, rather than risk a bloody battle killing the rest of them off.

Modifié par KaiserShep, 06 février 2014 - 03:20 .

[TheKomandorShepard]

KaiserShep wrote...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

Haha yes especially that 1000 moments when hawke is moron or even retarded just to create more drama...

Yes, 1,000 moments in a game that is only maybe 30+ hours long on a completionist playthrough. Nothing hyperbolic about that at all.

Loath as I am to ask this, I'm curious. What specific moments in the game can you recall that make you think that Hawke was such a monumental moron? Mind you, this must also account for actions you can outright refuse to do in the game, like helping Anders gather materials, and distracting the Grand Cleric, for example.

Lets see first being plaything for flemeth
Second being plaything for petrice (as we deal with her more than once x3 ,x4 and more)
Even if you are pro-tremplar you have to protect anders you can tell him "get lost" in 1 moment after his quest but still you are going let abomnation be free.
Hawke stupidity when he let isabela escape at the end of second act.
Being nothing more than plaything for arishok.
Being screwd by dwarf (bartrand) with idol when guy was greedy as hell and not very plesant just every person who think could see that...
Helping insane woman (meredith)
Going to city where templars hold power and are most powerful in thedas great idea.
After being noble if you are mage you are still in kirkwall despite that templars could capture you despite bing noble and well hah only because they were even bigger morons saved hawke.
Being plaything for tallis. (it was more retarded than stupid)
Being screwd by corry.
and more like antivian crows case and more more and more...

[Aaleel]

KaiserShep wrote...

This doesn't refute the fact that Hawke's involvement softened the blow of the qunari attack, and it's very unlikely that anyone else would have been able to resolve the situation that simply had the remainder of the Arishok's forces leave the city, rather than risk a bloody battle killing the rest of them off.

I wasn't talking about Hawke's affect on the situation at all, I was responding to one particular point that said we don't know if the Qunari would have been defeated at all without Hawke being there.

Modifié par Aaleel, 06 février 2014 - 03:33 .

[Anvos]

KaiserShep wrote...

This doesn't refute the fact that Hawke's involvement softened the blow of the qunari attack, and it's very unlikely that anyone else would have been able to resolve the situation that simply had the remainder of the Arishok's forces leave the city, rather than risk a bloody battle killing the rest of them off.

The outcome of nobles and part of the city massacred might have been better for the world by refocusing the white divine and mages on recognizing the qunari threat instead of the circles collapsing in rebellion. (which leads to the veil torn asunder)

Also the Arishok leaves is the worst ending to that conflict, the Arishok pretty much tells you your a fool and the qunari will be back.

Modifié par Anvos, 06 février 2014 - 03:39 .

[Ieldra]

Aaleel wrote...
I already said in earlier posts that I think the disdain for Hawke is out there and people are looking at this in extremes.  But I don't see how anyone can look at the circumstances in game and say the Qunari had the forces to occupy the city.  The entirety of their remaining forces were pretty much in one room.

The viscount says if the Arishok wanted to conquer Kirkwall, he would do so and he didn't have the means to make them leave. I doubt very much he discounted Meredith and the mages when he said that. That the game doesn't show exactly how many there are is irrelevant.

Perhaps the qunari didn't have the means to hold the city against what followed after their conquest - possibly an Exalted March - but they sure had the means to conquer it. I have no reason to believe the viscount's assessment to be that far off.

[KaiserShep]

This entire list is nonsense, but what the heck...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

Lets see first being plaything for flemeth

What about her? Should Hawke have known that Flemeth would use it to smuggle herself into Sundermount? This seems more like a metagaming issue than one with the character, because the player obviously knows who this is before Hawke does. Being kept in the dark is not the same as being stupid. There is no plaything here.

Second being plaything for petrice (as we deal with her more than once x3 ,x4 and more)

You mean the woman who failed to have a random citizen get killed by the Arvaarad, and gets killed by the qunari herself? Seems like she's the one who ended up on the short end of the stick in that deal, same as Ser Varnell. Again, Hawke has no proof that Sister Petrice is up to no good until it's discovered that a trail of bodies was left for the Arvaarad so their paths would cross. On top of that, you can refuse. Remember, I said actions that are option must be accounted for in this.

Even if you are pro-tremplar you have to protect anders you can tell him "get lost" in 1 moment after his quest but still you are going let abomnation be free.

You do know that Varric was actively protecting Anders and paying to keep him out of the templars' sights, right? You can refuse his quests and warn the templars as well as the Grand Cleric. The rest is entirely up to them. Hawke is not obligated to hunt down Anders and kill him, but they are if need be.

Hawke stupidity when he let isabela escape at the end of second act.

Yes because obviously Hawke can both chase down and catch Isabela and fight off qunari at the same time. Now you're just reaching for examples to make this list longer.

Being nothing more than plaything for arishok.

To what are you referring? Are you talking about the elf fanatic's plot to release gas in the city? In what way is Hawke being manipulated here? This is a plot against both Kirkwall and the qunari alike.

Being screwd by dwarf (bartrand) with idol when guy was greedy as hell and not very plesant just every person who think could see that...

Being able to predict a plot point does not automatically mean that the character in the story should suddenly have the clairvoyance to know what everyone is up to. Again, not a good example.

Helping insane woman (meredith)

There's no way for Hawke to know this. Again, lack of clairvoyance =/= stupidity. In any case, Meredith did not strike me as insane on her first impression. Harsh, sure, but all we get are rumors from other templars, and some words of concern by Cullen, but little else.

Going to city where templars hold power and are most powerful in thedas great idea.

Lol, wtf. They were fleeing the Blight, to the one city where it was presumed that Hawke's mother's family had an estate they could stay in. Yeah, really dumb.

After being noble if you are mage you are still in kirkwall despite that templars could capture you despite bing noble and well hah only because they were even bigger morons saved hawke.
Being plaything for tallis. (it was more retarded than stupid)
Being screwd by corry.
and more like antivian crows case and more more and more...

Lol...no.

Modifié par KaiserShep, 06 février 2014 - 04:07 .

[KaiserShep]

Anvos wrote...

KaiserShep wrote...

This doesn't refute the fact that Hawke's involvement softened the blow of the qunari attack, and it's very unlikely that anyone else would have been able to resolve the situation that simply had the remainder of the Arishok's forces leave the city, rather than risk a bloody battle killing the rest of them off.

The outcome of nobles and part of the city massacred might have been better for the world by refocusing the white divine and mages on recognizing the qunari threat instead of the circles collapsing in rebellion. (which leads to the veil torn asunder)

Let's not move the goal posts here. Whether or not their deaths would have served Thedas for the better is irrelevant. The fact is that they were saved. That's all that matters.

Also the Arishok leaves is the worst ending to that conflict, the Arishok pretty much tells you your a fool and the qunari will be back.

Note that I said the "remainder of the Arishok's force", not the Arishok himself. I killed the Arishok, and his men leave without further bloodshed.

[TheKomandorShepard]

KaiserShep wrote...

This entire list is nonsense, but what the heck...

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

Lets see first being plaything for flemeth

What about her? Should Hawke have known that Flemeth would use it to smuggle herself into Sundermount? This seems more like a metagaming issue than one with the character, because the player obviously knows who this is before Hawke does. Being kept in the dark is not the same as being stupid. There is no plaything here.

Second being plaything for petrice (as we deal with her more than once x3 ,x4 and more)

You mean the woman who failed to have a random citizen get killed by the Arvaarad, and gets killed by the qunari herself? Seems like she's the one who ended up on the short end of the stick in that deal, same as Ser Varnell. Again, Hawke has no proof that Sister Petrice is up to no good until it's discovered that a trail of bodies was left for the Arvaarad so their paths would cross. On top of that, you can refuse. Remember, I said actions that are option must be accounted for in this.

Even if you are pro-tremplar you have to protect anders you can tell him "get lost" in 1 moment after his quest but still you are going let abomnation be free.

You do know that Varric was actively protecting Anders and paying to keep him out of the templars' sights, right? You can refuse his quests and warn the templars as well as the Grand Cleric. The rest is entirely up to them. Hawke is not obligated to hunt down Anders and kill him, but they are if need be.

Hawke stupidity when he let isabela escape at the end of second act.

Yes because obviously Hawke can both chase down and catch Isabela and fight off qunari at the same time. Now you're just reaching for examples to make this list longer.

Being nothing more than plaything for arishok.

To what are you referring? Are you talking about the elf fanatic's plot to release gas in the city? In what way is Hawke being manipulated here? This is a plot against both Kirkwall and the qunari alike.

Being screwd by dwarf (bartrand) with idol when guy was greedy as hell and not very plesant just every person who think could see that...

Being able to predict a plot point does not automatically mean that the character in the story should suddenly have the clairvoyance to know what everyone is up to. Again, not a good example.

Helping insane woman (meredith)

There's no way for Hawke to know this. Again, lack of clairvoyance =/= stupidity. In any case, Meredith did not strike me as insane on her first impression. Harsh, sure, but all we get are rumors from other templars, and some words of concern by Cullen, but little else.

Going to city where templars hold power and are most powerful in thedas great idea.

Lol, wtf. They were fleeing the Blight, to the one city where it was presumed that Hawke's mother's family had an estate they could stay in. Yeah, really dumb.

After being noble if you are mage you are still in kirkwall despite that templars could capture you despite bing noble and well hah only because they were even bigger morons saved hawke.
Being plaything for tallis. (it was more retarded than stupid)
Being screwd by corry.
and more like antivian crows case and more more and more...

Lol...no.

1.Lets see we have amulet from suspected witche that poses as villian sue and we don't have any other option as let her free like screw that and sell amulet or just throw it... plaything bum!

2.Woman who screwd you in ass in first act and hawke was standing there like a mooron a let her go just to bit him in ass in second act o hello hawke i framed you nothing personal o hay i will let you live again you are so nice lady , oh and screwd second time where she lead hawke straight into trap genious hawke strikes again.

3.Not rly even meredith admits that hawke protection is reason why she didn't went against him varric protected him only from thugs as far i renember not templars... Hawke ins't obligaded to hunt down abomnations because as far i renember he is doing that... yeah go go abomnation let him walk streets i can see pro-mage doing that but outside it is just stupid...

4.Lols yeah because tottaly selfish isabela won't screw him over best idea hey lets her go with us she won't steal relict ups i was wrong genius hawke strikes again oh yes lets fight qunari when isabela just escaped and two hostile groups were about start fight each other oh why we couldn't do that same and go after isabela:huh:

5.Lets see hawke doing what ari wants then he is lied by ari with gas and then went straight into ari trap... only way to aviod is have agressive personality and still end that same...

6.Yeah right because who would suspect greedy and shady dwarf i mean duh how that came?

7.No because it is clear peoples talk about even outside gallows do some quest for her and you will know that simple because she will act like paranoid nut (well pro-mage don't see that still have a lot reason to opposite meredith but pro-templar hawke can see that god such)...

8.yeah they could even went to the orlais and it would be better for them because orlais is shady place so you can hide among criminals and well hawke would get money as mercenary and even do more money than in kirkwall.Besides that kirkwall already have tons of refugees and i was right so my point wins...

9.lol yes

[KaiserShep]

I must be some kind of masochist to entertain this. So basically, Hawke must be dumb for not reading the script ahead of time. Too bad BioWare didn't have Mel Brooks make this game. That would have saved the PC a lot of trouble.

Arguments, I dub thee invalid.

Modifié par KaiserShep, 06 février 2014 - 04:59 .

[TheKomandorShepard]

KaiserShep wrote...

I must be some kind of masochist to entertain this. So basically, Hawke must be dumb for not reading the script ahead of time. Too bad BioWare didn't have Mel Brooks make this game. That would have saved the PC a lot of trouble.

Arguments, I dub thee invalid.

What what script have to judgment or even thinking properly when other person try screw you in.... and not allowing doing that... so you are making this up script isn't needed to judge peoples and hell it isn't even about to know peoples past or job....

[KaiserShep]

Even my keyboard hurts.

[TheKomandorShepard]

KaiserShep wrote...

Even my keyboard hurts.

Don't hit it then:devil:

[Ieldra]

KaiserShep wrote...
Even my keyboard hurts.

Indeed. While I don't agree, I can understand not liking the story constraints, but these "arguments" are plainly idiotic.

There's also this: with Hawke, I felt somewhat constrained in the story, and I would've indeed preferred a somewhat less restrictive frame, but in the end it didn't matter so much. With Shepard, however, I felt constrained in characterization, and that destroyed the story for me since I hated Bioware's writing of them. In ME2, it was noticeable but manageable, but in ME3 it became unbearable.

Give me someone like Hawke any day. After ME3, leaving ME behind and getting back into DA2 felt like leaving a torturing chamber and getting out into the open air again, and that applies to both DAO and DA2 and their protagonists. 

[Hellion Rex]

Ieldra2 wrote...

KaiserShep wrote...
Even my keyboard hurts.

Indeed. While I don't agree, I can understand not liking the story constraints, but these "arguments" are plainly idiotic.

There's also this: with Hawke, I felt somewhat constrained in the story, and I would've indeed preferred a somewhat less restrictive frame, but in the end it didn't matter so much. With Shepard, however, I felt constrained in characterization, and that destroyed the story for me since I hated Bioware's writing of them. In ME2, it was noticeable but manageable, but in ME3 it became unbearable.

Give me someone like Hawke any day. After ME3, leaving ME behind and getting back into DA2 felt like leaving a torturing chamber and getting out into the open air again, and that applies to both DAO and DA2 and their protagonists. 

Damn. You really didn't like ME3 lol.

[Grieving Natashina]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...


Agreed.

When DA2 was announced people were complaning that "saving the world" is boring and cliche.
Then, when they geta story where sou dont' save the world they compaing the main character is not "a hero".

So..what is a hero pray tell?

Saving people and influencing lives is not enough apprently. No, it must be done on a huge scale. Otehrwise, you're a nobody.

You must be saving/dooming entire towns or races o na regular basis. Deciding the fate of kings. Swating dragons and armies like flies. Hot members of the opposite (or not) sex must swarm over you, begging for the ride on your loveboat.

Truly, only this makes one a her and "interesting".

I wanted to agree with this.  I've seen threading complaining that PCs are "Mary Sues" that can do no wrong and have incredible powers.  Hawke is not all powerful, not all knowing and the things that happen to him/her are surprisingly relateable.    

No, I cannot empathize with my brother and mother being killed in such a fashion.  However, my older sister did lose her best friend of 20 years to a serial killer, and it was heartbreaking to watch my sister suffer until her friend's body was found.

My point?  Some of the tragedies like what happened to Hawke can happen in real life.  That's why I like him/her (I'm trying out my first male Hawke) so much.  S/he tries and does some good before s/he disappears.  For example, in Act 3, the owner of the Imports shop (in Lowtown, same place you ask about Anders in Act 1,) mentions how much better the lot is of Kirkwall refugees since Hawke started helping.  I'd like to think it wasn't the Bone Pit that helped, but in other ways.  Aveline mentions the coin that Hawke poured in Kirkwall and I believe that some of that went to the refugees in Darktown/the Undercity.

Finally, I think even the Warden would have had a tough time in Kirkwall.  With the thin Veil, the blood rune and the years of slaves being sacrificed, Kirkwall was a cursed place.  It was a bomb with an inviting and long fuse just waiting to go off.

Modifié par Starsyn, 06 février 2014 - 09:05 .

[Ieldra]

eluvianix wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

KaiserShep wrote...
Even my keyboard hurts.

Indeed. While I don't agree, I can understand not liking the story constraints, but these "arguments" are plainly idiotic.

There's also this: with Hawke, I felt somewhat constrained in the story, and I would've indeed preferred a somewhat less restrictive frame, but in the end it didn't matter so much. With Shepard, however, I felt constrained in characterization, and that destroyed the story for me since I hated Bioware's writing of them. In ME2, it was noticeable but manageable, but in ME3 it became unbearable.

Give me someone like Hawke any day. After ME3, leaving ME behind and getting back into DA2 felt like leaving a torturing chamber and getting out into the open air again, and that applies to both DAO and DA2 and their protagonists. 

Damn. You really didn't like ME3 lol.

The writing of certain characters, to be precise, including the protagonist. As a game and a story it works well enough, but as opposed to ME3 I never felt betrayed by Hawke's writing. Playing Hawke was easy most of the time, and apart from a few rare instances of contrived stupidity, the only bad thing was the damned paraphrasing.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 06 février 2014 - 09:13 .

[Grieving Natashina]

@Ieldra Or some of the awful jokes as a Snarky!Hawke. Some of those were just terrible. One I can think of off the top of my head was "You said Dupuis. " She emphasized the "p" in the manner of an 8 year old child. I was thinking, "Really Hawke? You're a grown woman pushing 30 years old. That was childish and not funny."

I picked that answer only once and usually pick the diplomatic response instead.  It was so asnine that it stuck out in my mind.  Probably one of the worst jokes in the whole sodding game.

Modifié par Starsyn, 06 février 2014 - 09:29 .

[Heimdall]

The only moment I can think of off the top of my head that Hawke might be considered egregiously stupid would be the Tallis situation... Though personally my Hawke didn't care enough to stop her and its mostly on Bioware for not allowing the option to try.

Modifié par Lord Aesir, 06 février 2014 - 09:33 .

[KaiserShep]

Even the option on the wheel looked unappealing, so I avoided it. I found it best to be more selective of the moments to use the sarcastic/humor option on the wheel, though this is one of those things that paraphrasing does make a bit tougher.

[wright1978]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Indeed. While I don't agree, I can understand not liking the story constraints, but these "arguments" are plainly idiotic.

There's also this: with Hawke, I felt somewhat constrained in the story, and I would've indeed preferred a somewhat less restrictive frame, but in the end it didn't matter so much. With Shepard, however, I felt constrained in characterization, and that destroyed the story for me since I hated Bioware's writing of them. In ME2, it was noticeable but manageable, but in ME3 it became unbearable.

Give me someone like Hawke any day. After ME3, leaving ME behind and getting back into DA2 felt like leaving a torturing chamber and getting out into the open air again, and that applies to both DAO and DA2 and their protagonists. 

Pretty much sums up my standpoint. Some of the story constraints on Hawke frustrated me but there wasn't the unpleasant sudden character constraints of ME3.

[KaiserShep]

Lord Aesir wrote...

The only moment I can think of off the top of my head that Hawke might be considered egregiously stupid would be the Tallis situation... Though personally my Hawke didn't care enough to stop her and its mostly on Bioware for not allowing the option to try.

Yeah, this is one of those moments where it only really suits those who characterizes their Hawke as one who couldn't care less about that sort of thing (which I do), but other than that, I felt that Hawke was generally pretty solid.