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[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

Rassler wrote...


That was not insult. Since when James is an insult? That was to show his (positive)stubbornness. Also that pretty much proves Anders is not a Villain but people can have their opinions of course.

Not the Avatar comment the "You probably won't understand this" bit.

I mean you're already filed under "Crazies" you really don't need to add rude to that.

[Trolldrool]

The problem with Anders as morally gray in Act 3 is that it's no longer just Anders. That's the problem with the whole abomination thing. In act 3 he is rapidly turning into a complete hybrid with Justice into a perverted spirit, Vengeance.

And in the Fade, everything is black and white. Which suits its only natural inhabitants, the spirits, who at their core can never be more than the single emotion or trait they represent. Good luck finding a cowardly spirit of valor or a serene spirit of rage for instance. Spirits don't have gray areas, nor do they understand them. It could even be speculated that Justice's transformation is a result of being exposed to gray areas and being forced to adapt to them or treat them as obstacles in his pursuit to right wrongs that need to be destroyed, quite literally when looking at the compromise of Elthina as a threat.

Anders seems to have some moral understanding near the end that even if he considers what he's doing necessary, he at least believes his own methods to be morally reprehensible. Through most of Act 3 however, the less of Anders remains and the less of Justice remains and the more of the hybrid (Vengeance) emerges.

[Br3admax]

Rassler wrote...

Well then whatever Zevran and Isabela are, Anders sits in the same position with them since their morals are not so different.

They are completely different. Isabela, Zevran, neither are ends-justify-the-means.

We should keep both the white and black aspects of each of this characters in mind. Since they are neither and somewhere in between excuse me for calling them grey.

Having white and black aspects does not make one grey. Having them in comparable measure does. Learn what grey means. Maybe I should get that paint can back out to show you.

Izzy and Zev fans would drink you under the table for what you just said though. 

Wow. Drink me under the table? Wut? 

Modifié par Br3ad, 04 février 2014 - 08:15 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Rassler wrote...

Then what? He is not white, obviously. Not really black(Villian). Then what is he? How is he less grey than Zevran who murders for pleasure and money?

Why can't Zevran be called black? Since, you know, he murders for pleasure and money?

Being affably evil and likeable, and even potentially undergoing development to becoming benign, doesn't mean you aren't black.

How is he less grey than Isabela that created all that Qunari mess for just greed?

Why can't greed be a gray sin rather than black? Isabella's greed caused unintended consequences, and only after many other actors acted independentally. Anders deliberatly sought his sin.

You can decide to punish them too. At least Anders had a noble goal in mind and used wrong and extreme methods to achieve that.

Since when was getting the mages of Kirwall massacred a noble goal?

Let's be clear: by the end, Anders goal is not to help the mages win their liberation. He does nothing to prepare them for such a struggle and is not attempting to set conditions for their victory. His goal isn't to save the lives of the Kirkwall mages, or to respect their wishes, or to let them make their own decision on the matter.

Anders fixation is ending the oppression of the mages. His solution for resolving that that is instigating an ethnic cleansing that will remove the oppression of the mages by fact that there will be no more mages left alive to be oppressed.

This is Anders' end-game. He is not expecting to win a battle with the Templars. He is not expecting to survive, nor does he expect any of the Kirkwall mages to survive. He has no reason, to believe that other circles will be any more successful if they too revolt, and has done nothing to facilitate their success.

This is not a noble goal: it is an obsession with an injustice, and not a concern for the oppressed.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 04 février 2014 - 08:19 .

[Lulupab]

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

Rassler wrote...


That was not insult. Since when James is an insult? That was to show his (positive)stubbornness. Also that pretty much proves Anders is not a Villain but people can have their opinions of course.

Not the Avatar comment the "You probably won't understand this" bit.

I mean you're already filed under "Crazies" you really don't need to add rude to that.

"You probably won't understand this" was aimed at article not the james part. Because I just had an argument with someone else who did not understand it. So no.

I'm going to be blunt here. You are being quite judgemental here. I am filed under the "crazies"? Lel, hear people. All anders fans are crazy, even though more than zillion times I have acknowledged his flaws and did not defend him like a fangirl. Also knowing about all he has done his thead got 2270 pages, so by BSN numbers making him 2nd favorite character of all time in DA2 universe with Varric being number 1, Obviously.

Anders fan thread:
http://social.biowar...index/6402250/1

[Lulupab]

Br3ad wrote...

Rassler wrote...

Well then whatever Zevran and Isabela are, Anders sits in the same position with them since their morals are not so different.

They are completely different. Isabela, Zevran, neither are ends-justify-the-means.

We should keep both the white and black aspects of each of this characters in mind. Since they are neither and somewhere in between excuse me for calling them grey.

Having white and black aspects does not make one grey. Having them in comparable measure does. Learn what grey means. Maybe I should get that paint can back out to show you.

Izzy and Zev fans would drink you under the table for what you just said though. 

Wow. Drink me under the table? Wut? 

Lets just make a single comparison. Well Anders have healed hundreds of refugees if not thousands without asking for a single penny, possibly saving 100x more lives than he has taken.

Isabela has saved slaves.

Anders have blown up a both political and religious building, Isabela has started a war out of greed. Anders feels guilt, Isabela is almost proud. Both are willing to act for redemption if given chance.

Both seem equally gray to me.

Also you do know drinking someone under the tabe means right? It doesn't always mean winning at drinking contest, they will win if you argue with them.

[Dean_the_Young]

Rassler wrote...

"You probably won't understand this" was aimed at article not the james part. Because I just had an argument with someone else who did not understand it. So no.

You weren't clear, but I believe the insult was accidental.

I'm going to be blunt here. You are being quite judgemental here. I am filed under the "crazies"? Lel, hear people. All anders fans are crazy, even though more than zillion times I have acknowledged his flaws and did not defend him like a fangirl. Also knowing about all he has done his thead got 2270 pages, so by BSN numbers making him 2nd favorite character of all time in DA2 universe with Varric being number 1, Obviously.

Uh, what?

Since when does the number of pages equal the most favorite character? Or imply less crazy?


Not saying you're crazy, I just am not seeing an argument here.

[Dean_the_Young]

Rassler wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

Rassler wrote...

Well then whatever Zevran and Isabela are, Anders sits in the same position with them since their morals are not so different.

They are completely different. Isabela, Zevran, neither are ends-justify-the-means.

We should keep both the white and black aspects of each of this characters in mind. Since they are neither and somewhere in between excuse me for calling them grey.

Having white and black aspects does not make one grey. Having them in comparable measure does. Learn what grey means. Maybe I should get that paint can back out to show you.

Izzy and Zev fans would drink you under the table for what you just said though. 

Wow. Drink me under the table? Wut? 

Lets just make a single comparison. Well Anders have healed hundreds of refugees if not thousands without asking for a single penny, possibly saving 100x more lives than he has taken.

Isabela has saved slaves.

Anders have blown up a both political and religious building, Isabela has started a war out of greed. Anders feels guilt, Isabela is almost proud. Both are willing to act for redemption if given chance.

Both seem equally gray to me.

Also you do know drinking someone under the tabe means right? It doesn't always mean winning at drinking contest, they will win if you argue with them.

Well, like a lot of simple comparisons that's an awful one. There's the highly selective portrayals, the ignoring of countering context, the baseless fabrication of numbers, and the factual innacuracies. And, to top it off, none of it naturally ties to your conclusion: after listing unequal merits and virtues, you then conclude they are morally equal.

I'm not sure where drinking comes in with this, but I'm not sure your positions need more of a handicap.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

Rassler wrote...



I'm going to be blunt here. You are being quite judgemental here. I am filed under the "crazies"? Lel, hear people. All anders fans are crazy, even though more than zillion times I have acknowledged his flaws and did not defend \\

I don't believe I said anything about all Anders fans being crazy, just you.

[Lulupab]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Rassler wrote...

"You probably won't understand this" was aimed at article not the james part. Because I just had an argument with someone else who did not understand it. So no.

You weren't clear, but I believe the insult was accidental.

I'm going to be blunt here. You are being quite judgemental here. I am filed under the "crazies"? Lel, hear people. All anders fans are crazy, even though more than zillion times I have acknowledged his flaws and did not defend him like a fangirl. Also knowing about all he has done his thead got 2270 pages, so by BSN numbers making him 2nd favorite character of all time in DA2 universe with Varric being number 1, Obviously.

Uh, what?

Since when does the number of pages equal the most favorite character? Or imply less crazy?


Not saying you're crazy, I just am not seeing an argument here.

Well since we can't really base it on anything else number of pages have to do. Besides its full of Anders fans and its not a discussion and he is automatically calling them all crazy too which was my point.

[Br3admax]

Rassler wrote...

Lets just make a single comparison. Well Anders have healed hundreds of refugees if not thousands without asking for a single penny, possibly saving 100x more lives than he has taken.

Isabela has saved slaves.

Anders have blown up a both political and religious building, Isabela has started a war out of greed. Anders feels guilt, Isabela is almost proud. Both are willing to act for redemption if given chance.

Both seem equally gray to me.

That is not what greys means. Especially when you make up the amounts yourself, you have really proven nothing. When you make up the figures, with no supporting evidence mind you, you only make your argument look wrong.

Also you do know drinking someone under the tabe means right? It doesn't always mean winning at drinking contest, they will win if you argue with them.

You obviously don't get why I said what I said. First, thanks for the lesson I didn't need. Second, "Izzy and Zev" fans hardly debate about their grayness, and it is not the topic of this thread. Finally, you are giving them opinions that you do not actually know that they have, nor did I even debate over. That is why what you said makes very little sense in the slightest.

Modifié par Br3ad, 04 février 2014 - 08:48 .

[Lulupab]

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

Rassler wrote...



I'm going to be blunt here. You are being quite judgemental here. I am filed under the "crazies"? Lel, hear people. All anders fans are crazy, even though more than zillion times I have acknowledged his flaws and did not defend

I don't believe I said anything about all Anders fans being crazy, just you.

Well you say I fell under "crazies" while being in no position to claim such a thing and ironically call me rude in the same post? I mean who are you mister to claim as such. Also based on what you call me crazy for all people in that thread automatically fall under "crazies" as well since we all share most of the views I have and then some.

[Dean_the_Young]

Rassler wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Rassler wrote...

"You probably won't understand this" was aimed at article not the james part. Because I just had an argument with someone else who did not understand it. So no.

You weren't clear, but I believe the insult was accidental.

I'm going to be blunt here. You are being quite judgemental here. I am filed under the "crazies"? Lel, hear people. All anders fans are crazy, even though more than zillion times I have acknowledged his flaws and did not defend him like a fangirl. Also knowing about all he has done his thead got 2270 pages, so by BSN numbers making him 2nd favorite character of all time in DA2 universe with Varric being number 1, Obviously.

Uh, what?

Since when does the number of pages equal the most favorite character? Or imply less crazy?


Not saying you're crazy, I just am not seeing an argument here.

Well since we can't really base it on anything else number of pages have to do.

Or, just... don't? 

What does it matter to make any comparative claims anyway? Whether Anders is the most popular character, the third, or the fifth doesn't matter. Being a fan doesn't make you crazy. Having lots of fans doesn't mean he's morally ambiguous or gray. The points are all unrelated

Besides its full of Anders fans and its not a discussion and he is automatically calling them all crazy too which was my point.

Er, he wasn't calling all Anders fans crazy. He was calling you, a fan of Anders, crazy. And not because you were a fan of Anders either.

[Lulupab]

Br3ad wrote...

Rassler wrote...

Lets just make a single comparison. Well Anders have healed hundreds of refugees if not thousands without asking for a single penny, possibly saving 100x more lives than he has taken.

Isabela has saved slaves.

Anders have blown up a both political and religious building, Isabela has started a war out of greed. Anders feels guilt, Isabela is almost proud. Both are willing to act for redemption if given chance.

Both seem equally gray to me.

That is not what greys means. Especially when you make up the amounts yourself, you have really proven nothing. When you make up the figures, with no supporting evidence mind you, you only make your argument look wrong.

Also you do know drinking someone under the tabe means right? It doesn't always mean winning at drinking contest, they will win if you argue with them.

You obviously don't get why I said what I said. First, thanks for the lesson I didn't need. Second, "Izzy and Zev" fans hardly debate about their grayness, and it is not the topic of this thread. Finally, you are giving them opinions that you do not actually know that they have, nor did I even debate over. That is why what you said makes very little sense in the slightest.

Dictionary definition:

A person, an area or part of something existing between two extremes and having mixed characteristics of both

Lacking clearly defined characteristics

So that is indeed what gray means and it certainly applies to both Isabela and Anders. Also I did add 'probably' and 'might' before all those numbers because we have no proof, the only proof being no one else cared for refugees and they were willing to fight Hawke for protecting Anders.

Also I have promised myself not to argue with anyone when they make a comment about Anders, least of all defend his gray morality. But this is an Anders thread not a comment so the whole point us being here is Anders.

[Lulupab]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Rassler wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Rassler wrote...

"You probably won't understand this" was aimed at article not the james part. Because I just had an argument with someone else who did not understand it. So no.

You weren't clear, but I believe the insult was accidental.

I'm going to be blunt here. You are being quite judgemental here. I am filed under the "crazies"? Lel, hear people. All anders fans are crazy, even though more than zillion times I have acknowledged his flaws and did not defend him like a fangirl. Also knowing about all he has done his thead got 2270 pages, so by BSN numbers making him 2nd favorite character of all time in DA2 universe with Varric being number 1, Obviously.

Uh, what?

Since when does the number of pages equal the most favorite character? Or imply less crazy?


Not saying you're crazy, I just am not seeing an argument here.

Well since we can't really base it on anything else number of pages have to do.

Or, just... don't? 

What does it matter to make any comparative claims anyway? Whether Anders is the most popular character, the third, or the fifth doesn't matter. Being a fan doesn't make you crazy. Having lots of fans doesn't mean he's morally ambiguous or gray. The points are all unrelated

Besides its full of Anders fans and its not a discussion and he is automatically calling them all crazy too which was my point.

Er, he wasn't calling all Anders fans crazy. He was calling you, a fan of Anders, crazy. And not because you were a fan of Anders either.

Then what is he calling me crazy for? It was certainly because of me being an Anders fan. I haven't said anything much in this thread other than arguing about him.

[Billy-the-Squid]

Rassler wrote...

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

Rassler wrote...



I'm going to be blunt here. You are being quite judgemental here. I am filed under the "crazies"? Lel, hear people. All anders fans are crazy, even though more than zillion times I have acknowledged his flaws and did not defend

I don't believe I said anything about all Anders fans being crazy, just you.

Well you say I fell under "crazies" while being in no position to claim such a thing and ironically call me rude in the same post? I mean who are you mister to claim as such. Also based on what you call me crazy for all people in that thread automatically fall under "crazies" as well since we all share most of the views I have and then some.

It's a term of endearment we use for crazy fanatics, the obsessive waifu brigade, the rainbow coalition, the mage loons, the deranged IT ers, the drones, the selectively blind etc...  pretty much anyone who's hamster wheel logic runs on overdrive. 

[Br3admax]

Rassler wrote...

Dictionary definition:

A person, an area or part of something existing between two extremes and having mixed characteristics of both

Lacking clearly defined characteristics

Which doesn't describe any of the people you keep trying to as such.

So that is indeed what gray means and it certainly applies to both Isabela and Anders.

Except it doesn't. Anders is the extreme. Him doing a few good deeds not change his personal character in the slightest. He's a radical. Being radical within itself stops him from being grey.

Also I did add 'probably' and 'might' before all those numbers because we have no proof, the only proof being no one else cared for refugees and they were willing to fight Hawke for protecting Anders.

Also not true within the game. There is even a nobleman named within the game who sends aid to Fereldan. You've offically confirmed that you are making all of this up though, so thank you.

 
Also I have promised myself not to argue with anyone when they make a comment about Anders, least of all defend his gray morality. But this is an Anders thread not a comment so the whole point us being here is Anders.

 What did this have to do with what I asked? Why are making up points that I, nor anyone for that matter, didn't use to describe two completely unrealated characters to the topic at hand?

[Lulupab]

Tequila Cat wrote...

Rassler wrote...

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

Rassler wrote...



I'm going to be blunt here. You are being quite judgemental here. I am filed under the "crazies"? Lel, hear people. All anders fans are crazy, even though more than zillion times I have acknowledged his flaws and did not defend

I don't believe I said anything about all Anders fans being crazy, just you.

Well you say I fell under "crazies" while being in no position to claim such a thing and ironically call me rude in the same post? I mean who are you mister to claim as such. Also based on what you call me crazy for all people in that thread automatically fall under "crazies" as well since we all share most of the views I have and then some.

It's a term of endearment we use for crazy fanatics, the obsessive waifu brigade, the rainbow coalition, the mage loons, the deranged IT ers, the drones, the selectively blind etc...  pretty much anyone who's hamster wheel logic runs on overdrive. 

Is it serious or a pun? Because Anders made my boyfriend gay but I'm ok with it. 

On a serious note I merely talked about why I like Anders and explained my view point. I do not like what he did at the end of act3 and I never asked for mageocracy. I've always backed any claim where it ended up with Templars and Mages being peace with both sides given reasonable boons/freedoms etc... and more importantly conrol is still kept. All I say that in my opinion backstabbing him was not the answer. I'm not defending Anders, I'm defending my decision of keeping him alive.

[Dean_the_Young]

Rassler wrote...

Then what is he calling me crazy for? It was certainly because of me being an Anders fan. I haven't said anything much in this thread other than arguing about him.

Probably because you're jumping to wild conclusions based on unsupported assertions, while studiously ignorring any counterarguments and rebutals except by changing topic and repeating the process. These make for irrational arguments... in other words, crazy.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 04 février 2014 - 09:19 .

[Veruin]

Add some weretiger and we might have an heir to Qistina's legacy.

Modifié par Veruin, 04 février 2014 - 09:19 .

[Lulupab]

Br3ad wrote...

Rassler wrote...

Dictionary definition:

A person, an area or part of something existing between two extremes and having mixed characteristics of both

Lacking clearly defined characteristics

Which doesn't describe any of the people you keep trying to as such.

So that is indeed what gray means and it certainly applies to both Isabela and Anders.

Except it doesn't. Anders is the extreme. Him doing a few good deeds not change his personal character in the slightest. He's a radical. Being radical within itself stops him from being grey.

Also I did add 'probably' and 'might' before all those numbers because we have no proof, the only proof being no one else cared for refugees and they were willing to fight Hawke for protecting Anders.

Also not true within the game. There is even a nobleman named within the game who sends aid to Fereldan. You've offically confirmed that you are making all of this up though, so thank you.

 
Also I have promised myself not to argue with anyone when they make a comment about Anders, least of all defend his gray morality. But this is an Anders thread not a comment so the whole point us being here is Anders.

 What did this have to do with what I asked? Why are making up points that I, nor anyone for that matter, didn't use to describe two completely unrealated characters to the topic at hand?

How about we agree to disagree? You think he is not grey I think he is. We should have this argument. I already participated in enough of these arguements about Loghian. 

I never noticed the nobleman, so? How does it officialy confim anything? 

You said you don't see the other character fans defending him. Because no one is making a thread about those characters. I merely explained why I did.

[Br3admax]

Rassler wrote...

How about we agree to disagree? You think he is not grey I think he is. We should have this argument. I already participated in enough of these arguements about Loghian. 

Loghain actually is grey, for one. He doesn't piggyback off of his few good deeds and then use them to say that his friends neve cared for him when he blows up people.

I never noticed the nobleman, so? How does it officialy confim anything? 

You didn't see it so how does this confirm anything? Yeah, we're definitely done here.

You said you don't see the other character fans defending him. Because no one is making a thread about those characters. I merely explained why I did.

I never said any such thing. But you might want to pick one goal post to aim at. You'll never score if you keep switching them. 

[Lulupab]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Rassler wrote...

Then what is he calling me crazy for? It was certainly because of me being an Anders fan. I haven't said anything much in this thread other than arguing about him.

Probably because you're jumping to wild conclusions based on unsupported assertions, while studiously ignorring any counterarguments and rebutals except by changing topic and repeating the process. These make for irrational arguments... in other words, crazy.

That's oversimplifying what I said. In short I said that violent, murderous revolutionaries play JUST as much a role in bringing about positive changes to injustice as anyone else. This doesn't however excuse their actions nor make it a good thing Also this no longer applies to our societies but only to feudal ones like Thedas. Whether you like it or not, that's a fact of history. And one of the biggest ways they do it is exactly as did Anders: by giving reasonable people cause to step back and say "Hey, templars, you can't rise up and slaughter all the mages of every Circle in Thedas for the actions of one lone fanatic," which can quickly lead to "Hey, maybe part of the problem is that mages are being forced into desperate situations. We should rectify this."

Modifié par Rassler, 04 février 2014 - 09:43 .

[Lulupab]

Br3ad wrote...

Rassler wrote...

How about we agree to disagree? You think he is not grey I think he is. We should have this argument. I already participated in enough of these arguements about Loghian. 

Loghain actually is grey, for one. He doesn't piggyback off of his few good deeds and then use them to say that his friends neve cared for him when he blows up people.

I never noticed the nobleman, so? How does it officialy confim anything? 

You didn't see it so how does this confirm anything? Yeah, we're definitely done here.

You said you don't see the other character fans defending him. Because no one is making a thread about those characters. I merely explained why I did.

I never said any such thing. But you might want to pick one goal post to aim at. You'll never score if you keep switching them. 

You said "You've offically confirmed that you are making all of this up though, so thank you." I said how does it confirm anything, I meant how does it confirm I'm making EVERYHING up? So as it appears I was wrong about the refugees, but that was not the only point of my posts. Ugh the amount of misunderstanding in this thread is giving me a headache.