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[The Hierophant]

So we're glossing over Lambert discovering Fiona using the RoT cure meeting to discuss secession from the Chantry?

[addiction21]

eluvianix wrote...

More like he was mad that Justinia was doing all of this behind his back, even though she really didn't need his permission.

To keep the Nevarren Accord yes she at the very least needed to inform him of it. 

You even say it she "was doing all of this behind his back" . No **** such a betrayal of trust is going to cause drama no matter the good intentions.

[TEWR]

The Hierophant wrote...

So we're glossing over Lambert discovering Fiona using the RoT cure meeting to discuss secession from the Chantry?

In a broad sense, the case could be made that the discussion of secession was valid in the context of the meeting concerning the RoT. I'd have to reread Asunder's part on that though to see if it in fact would be a valid thing to stay, at which point I could elaborate my thought processes.

Not saying it was right or wrong to do so, only that it might not be as clear-cut as it's made out to be.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 05 février 2014 - 02:55 .

[Hellion Rex]

The Hierophant wrote...

So we're glossing over Lambert discovering Fiona using the RoT cure meeting to discuss secession from the Chantry?

Flying Grey Warden was asking why he was so angry over Justinia going to go behind his back to get Pharamond to experiment. We weren't even remotely talking about Fiona.

[TEWR]

The Flying Grey Warden wrote...

What was lambert's motive for not wanting an alternative to tranquility, or a way to take away mages magic without bringing back their magic? I don't see how finding one would impede the templars at all. They still can take away peoples magic, and I don't see how they are a threat without that, or the benefit of them being emotionless outside of that extra creepy factor.

In fact, Lambert was supportive of the Mages and Templars and Chantry researching such methods, but at a time when cooler heads prevailed. Tensions were running high and he didn't want the evidence to be eliminated entirely, just not brought up then and there (willing to kill a few mages yes, but it's hardly like he was evil about it).

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 05 février 2014 - 02:59 .

[Lulupab]

eluvianix wrote...

Rassler wrote...

Maybe a tranquility cure would have reduce the on-going almost global tension between mages and templars significantly thus preventing a war. Maybe Lambert didn't want it or he was simply an extreme Seeker, not like there is any shortage of extreme characters in DA universe.

Reversing Tranquility the way Pharamond did wouldn't do that though. The plan was to reverse it in such a way as to still deny a mage his power, whilst returning emotions. However, he couldn't make it work like that. It was all or nothing. Pharamond got his emotions back, but he also got his magic back. Hence making the Cure useless in that it puts us back where we started.
Edit: That being said, I do think it shows that there could eventually be a way found that could make Tranquility obsolete.

But they could have decided that reverse the right on some mages and tranquil mages temporarily. It would still reduce the tensions.

But didn't it kinda made a mage over emotional? As in the first feelings that come back are magnified greatly? So if hate against Templars is the first feeling that comes back the mage will go on killing spree?

[Dean_the_Young]

[quote]The Flying Grey Warden wrote...

How to betray something you are the head of?
[/quote]Er, easily. Especially if you are the head of a system of historic agreements and compromises with other parties, and have long-standing obligations to ensure certain policies and practices are upheld.

[quote]
That's like saying the president has "betrayed the country" by not allowing the police to gun down protesters with lethal ammo over the actions of one person
[/quote]Or, alternatively, selling out information about the security forces to insurgent forces. Which has gotten more than a few leaders fragged by their own generals.

There's also the great historical example of Quisling. Need we say more?

[quote]
. Like, honestly, I know you want lambert inside of you, but the man was an incompetent leader and went way over his bounds. Letting him do his job would have actually been more of a criminal offense after everything had settled then getting in his way.[/quote]You may wish to elaborate this, as nothing you wrote afterwards really supported it.

[quote]Also, when a person actively conspires to undermine a investigation from his superiors, doesn't that count as treason? Lambert pretty much did just that in the novel as soon as justina ordered an investigation for alternatives in tranquility, which wouldn't have possibly been any threat to the templars abilities to do their jobs.
[/quote]A cure to tranquility is a huge structural threat to the Circle system. It most definitely is a threat to the Templars' ability to do their jobs, and the implications for the Cricle system is enormous.

Tranquility is about the only mutually accepted compromises for untrusted mages that both the Templars and Mages have. It's a process short of death that removes the threat of abomination possession, and can serve as both a severe punishment (when execution is not desirable) and a potential escape for mages from Templar scrutiny. It has a high cost, but it has benefits not least being that the Templar mandate has no reason to be concerned with Tranquil. It's definitely restricted, and not even hardliners like Meredith supported its expansion, but it serves a useful means of mitigating the danger of magic.

Truly reversing tranquility isn't just regaining emotions: it's regaining the connection to the fade. It's regaining both magic and the risk of abomination outbreaks... precisely the risk that being made Tranquil was suppose to resolve in the first place. If Tranquil can become mages again, then they will have to be treated as mages for the potential threat they once again pose if someone reverts them.

That means all the Tranquil who have gone out of the Circle (which, according to Gaider, can happen) will have to be rounded up again. That means the Tranquil, formerly trusted, will now need to be watched as possible Mages in hiding. That means that Tranquility can never be an escape from the Circle, as a cure could be used to effectively smuggle mages out of the circle as Tranquil and then restore them as maleficars.

That also means that the only alternative to a mage passing the Harrowing will be outright, immediate execution... or the abandonment of the Harrowing system as a mandatory stress test if mages won't be executed and can't be made tranquil. Mage-Templar relations will plummet if the Templars execute anyone they deem as too weak for the test, which can lead to resistance from the mages, while the collapse of the Harrowing is the loss of one of the few accepted standards for the Templars to acknowledge the responsiblity of proven mages to leave the Circle with decreased supervision. Which, in practice, would likely mean no mage would be trusted to leave because there isn't an alternative standard of merit the Templars and Mages have agreed upon.

So, in fun uninenteded consequences, curing Tranquility will likely lead to either an increase in executions of mages who would previously be made tranquil, or the collapse of the Harrowing challenge and far fewer excursions and more confinement to the Circle.

And either of those could set the mages against the Templars. Which very much does impact their job.


Studying Tranquility makes sense. Secretly developing a cure, not so much.



[/quote]

[The Flying Grey Warden]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

The Flying Grey Warden wrote...

What was lambert's motive for not wanting an alternative to tranquility, or a way to take away mages magic without bringing back their magic? I don't see how finding one would impede the templars at all. They still can take away peoples magic, and I don't see how they are a threat without that, or the benefit of them being emotionless outside of that extra creepy factor.

In fact, Lambert was supportive of the Mages and Templars and Chantry researching such methods, but at a time when cooler heads prevailed. Tensions were running high and he didn't want the evidence to be eliminated entirely, just not brought up then and there (willing to kill a few mages yes, but it's hardly like he was evil about it).

That's why he ordered evangeline and then another agent to murder everyone if they found made any headway in the research? Because the one thing you want to do when you're interested in researching something is kill the researchers and destroy all evidence and notes on it, right?

[The Flying Grey Warden]

Also I don't believe in the whole slippery slope fallacy that you presented dean. But thank you for trying to provide some answers.

Trying to find a way to make the rite of tranquility not destory emotions doesn't seem like it would threaten the security of the templars, nor is the prospect of there being a cure considering the process needed to actually cure it was extrodinary and more based on luck. I don't see how people would just start killing eachother left and right if there was a cure for tranquility, because like the rite of tranquility already, they could keep the actual process a secret from the mages. This cure wouldn't be some pill they take or vial they drink that just instantly brings their emotions back, nor would it be something readily avaliable, so I don't see how it undermines the rite in any way outside of trying to find better alternatives.

And if you are just going to give up on finding alternatives or improving things, then I'm almost glad that they'll fall apart in your scenario, if they are so stagnated and archaic that they would rather institutionalize the act of ineffciency and inferiority over progess and improvement for everyone, templars and mages alike.

Modifié par The Flying Grey Warden, 05 février 2014 - 03:06 .

[Banxey]

addiction21 wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

More like he was mad that Justinia was doing all of this behind his back, even though she really didn't need his permission.

To keep the Nevarren Accord yes she at the very least needed to inform him of it. 

You even say it she "was doing all of this behind his back" . No **** such a betrayal of trust is going to cause drama no matter the good intentions.

It wasn't behind his back. The Seekers are agents of the Divine. They're not equals. She doesn't have to share things with him. Clearly his personal issues dictate that he can't be trusted, because he wasn't doing as he was told by his superior. 

[TEWR]

The Flying Grey Warden wrote...

That's why he ordered evangeline and then another agent to murder everyone if they found made any headway in the research? Because the one thing you want to do when you're interested in researching something is kill the researchers and destroy all evidence and notes on it, right?

Again, he said they could research it again at a time when tensions cooled off. I see no reason to doubt him on that, whatever my problems with the man (which are many). IIRC, he only advocated the deaths of the researchers and mages and not the destruction of the notes.

and not even hardliners like Meredith supported its expansion

Just cuz she saved face in the eyes of the public doesn't mean she didn't support its expansion. Rather, her negligence at doing her job properly and overseeing, managing, and reviewing the tranquilizations going on without her and Orsino's approval is damning, because it indicates that she really either didn't care or approved of it by inaction.

There's no way she couldn't have noticed. Not when Orsino would've raised a ****storm about it, and not when legally it requires the FE's and KC's signature/seal for an RoT to go through.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 05 février 2014 - 03:08 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Rassler wrote...

But they could have decided that reverse the right on some mages and tranquil mages temporarily. It would still reduce the tensions.

Only temporarily, and at a cost of undermining the system as a whole. As soon as the cure escape the control of the Templars, which it almost certainly would with a prize this great, the Tranquil can no longer be tolerated outside the Circle lest they be cured outside Templar oversight and become runaway mages.

The point of tranquility is that it's a permanet solution to Mages who aren't trusted to control themselves or their powers. The only alternative permanent mitigator is execution. If you don't make someone Tranquil permanently or execute them, then the binary alternative is that you're leving someone you believe to be a risk to others and themselves to go on being so.

That's a bad situation, and not simply because of Templar paranoia. Considering that Tranquility is done in consultation with the Mage leadership, people who would otherwise be tranquil are already viewed with doubt by their own peers.

[Banxey]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

The Flying Grey Warden wrote...

What was lambert's motive for not wanting an alternative to tranquility, or a way to take away mages magic without bringing back their magic? I don't see how finding one would impede the templars at all. They still can take away peoples magic, and I don't see how they are a threat without that, or the benefit of them being emotionless outside of that extra creepy factor.

In fact, Lambert was supportive of the Mages and Templars and Chantry researching such methods, but at a time when cooler heads prevailed. Tensions were running high and he didn't want the evidence to be eliminated entirely, just not brought up then and there (willing to kill a few mages yes, but it's hardly like he was evil about it).

Do you remember what part of the book he was being reasonable in? I don't recall any time I felt he was, but I'd like to check it out. 

[The Flying Grey Warden]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

The Flying Grey Warden wrote...

That's why he ordered evangeline and then another agent to murder everyone if they found made any headway in the research? Because the one thing you want to do when you're interested in researching something is kill the researchers and destroy all evidence and notes on it, right?

Again, he said they could research it again at a time when tensions cooled off. I see no reason to doubt him on that, whatever my problems with the man (which are many). IIRC, he only advocated the deaths of the researchers and mages and not the destruction of the notes.

He said destroy all evidence, that includes notes. And saying they could start it off again doesn't really answer anything. It could have been by pure chance or luck that they discover a cure, much like a lot of scientific discoveries. Asking them to recreate that type of discovery is like asking someone to win the lottery twice, it's not likely to happen and will probably cause a lot of wasted time and money.

[TEWR]

Banxey2 wrote...

Do you remember what part of the book he was being reasonable in? I don't recall any time I felt he was, but I'd like to check it out. 

When he goes to see Evangeline in her room, I believe.

He said destroy all evidence, that includes notes. And saying they could
start it off again doesn't really answer anything. It could have been
by pure chance or luck that they discover a cure, much like a lot of
scientific discoveries. Asking them to recreate that type of discovery
is like asking someone to win the lottery twice, it's not likely to
happen and will probably cause a lot of wasted time and money.

Perhaps. Still, it doesn't negate that he was supportive of refining the Tranquility method. Tensions were high, so he was kinda in between a rock and a hard place. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 05 février 2014 - 03:13 .

[Lulupab]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Rassler wrote...

But they could have decided that reverse the right on some mages and tranquil mages temporarily. It would still reduce the tensions.

Only temporarily, and at a cost of undermining the system as a whole. As soon as the cure escape the control of the Templars, which it almost certainly would with a prize this great, the Tranquil can no longer be tolerated outside the Circle lest they be cured outside Templar oversight and become runaway mages.

The point of tranquility is that it's a permanet solution to Mages who aren't trusted to control themselves or their powers. The only alternative permanent mitigator is execution. If you don't make someone Tranquil permanently or execute them, then the binary alternative is that you're leving someone you believe to be a risk to others and themselves to go on being so.

That's a bad situation, and not simply because of Templar paranoia. Considering that Tranquility is done in consultation with the Mage leadership, people who would otherwise be tranquil are already viewed with doubt by their own peers.

But the time of all this is also important. Thedas was not at peace during the session and events that follwed:
While Templar reinforcements arrived at Kirkwall to suppress further resistance, news from escaping mages of what had occurred spread to other Circles. Outraged that the templars of Kirkwall would invoke the Right of Annulment to justify the extermination of an entire Circle for the crimes of one apostate, some Circles revolted, while others were close to doing so. In response, the Templar Order cracked down, further restricting mage freedoms in an attempt to quell further disturbance.Despite this, the College of Enchanters, meeting for the last time in Cumberland before being disbanded in 9:38 Dragon, voted against secession from the Chantry at the urging of the Senior Enchanter, Wynne, in opposition to the motion tendered by its newly elected Grand EnchanterFiona. Nonetheless, many of the Libertarian faction, who wished for independence, continued to encourage mages to rebel. bla bla you know what happens.

The point is the war was already going on, it was just not official yet. The cure could shut down the hostilities and war itself. Just a speculation though.

[Dean_the_Young]

Banxey2 wrote...

addiction21 wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

More like he was mad that Justinia was doing all of this behind his back, even though she really didn't need his permission.

To keep the Nevarren Accord yes she at the very least needed to inform him of it. 

You even say it she "was doing all of this behind his back" . No **** such a betrayal of trust is going to cause drama no matter the good intentions.

It wasn't behind his back. The Seekers are agents of the Divine. They're not equals. She doesn't have to share things with him. Clearly his personal issues dictate that he can't be trusted, because he wasn't doing as he was told by his superior. 

The Seekers aren't agents of the Divine by inherent authority: they subordinated themselves by a  agreement. The agreement doesn't go away once they are subordinate. They are not equals, but the superior does not have unlimited authority or freedom either. The root of authority is conditional to the agreement remaining intact.

If a leader by voluntary consent of the subordinate renenges on the deal that made them leader, then the leader loses the foundation of the authority. The subordinate has no obligation to remain as such, since the premise of the relationship derives from the priorities of the agreement that brought the union.

[The Hierophant]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

In a broad sense, the case could be made that the discussion of secession was valid in the context of the meeting concerning the RoT. I'd have to reread Asunder's part on that though to see if it in fact would be a valid thing to stay, at which point I could elaborate my thought processes.

Not saying it was right or wrong to do so, only that it might not be as clear-cut as it's made out to be.

True, no argument here. In hindsight it's funny how Lambert spazing helped Fiona gain her support for secession.

Plus did Cole possess Rhys when it commited the murders? Not Pharmond's for obvious reasons.

@eluvianix & Warden - my fault for the reading comp fail.

[SgtSteel91]

IMO the cure they found wasn't just some potion a mage can make in the kitchen. You have to get a Spirit or Demon to interact with the Tranquil to reestablish their connection to the Fade. To me that sounds difficult to achieve without it backfiring. The only ones who seem capable of that are Spirit Healers and that's a very specialized mage.

Modifié par SgtSteel91, 05 février 2014 - 03:24 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Rassler wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Rassler wrote...

But they could have decided that reverse the right on some mages and tranquil mages temporarily. It would still reduce the tensions.

Only temporarily, and at a cost of undermining the system as a whole. As soon as the cure escape the control of the Templars, which it almost certainly would with a prize this great, the Tranquil can no longer be tolerated outside the Circle lest they be cured outside Templar oversight and become runaway mages.

The point of tranquility is that it's a permanet solution to Mages who aren't trusted to control themselves or their powers. The only alternative permanent mitigator is execution. If you don't make someone Tranquil permanently or execute them, then the binary alternative is that you're leving someone you believe to be a risk to others and themselves to go on being so.

That's a bad situation, and not simply because of Templar paranoia. Considering that Tranquility is done in consultation with the Mage leadership, people who would otherwise be tranquil are already viewed with doubt by their own peers.

But the time of all this is also important. Thedas was not at peace during the session and events that follwed:
While Templar reinforcements arrived at Kirkwall to suppress further resistance, news from escaping mages of what had occurred spread to other Circles. Outraged that the templars of Kirkwall would invoke the Right of Annulment to justify the extermination of an entire Circle for the crimes of one apostate, some Circles revolted, while others were close to doing so. In response, the Templar Order cracked down, further restricting mage freedoms in an attempt to quell further disturbance.Despite this, the College of Enchanters, meeting for the last time in Cumberland before being disbanded in 9:38 Dragon, voted against secession from the Chantry at the urging of the Senior Enchanter, Wynne, in opposition to the motion tendered by its newly elected Grand EnchanterFiona. Nonetheless, many of the Libertarian faction, who wished for independence, continued to encourage mages to rebel. bla bla you know what happens.

The point is the war was already going on, it was just not official yet. The cure could shut down the hostilities and war itself. Just a speculation though.

Sure. Let's think on it. Why would fatally undermining a core compromise of the Circle system, the Harrowing test, preserve the Circle system? 

The Circles aren't revolting or close to it because of Tranquility: the Circles are revolting or close to it because extremist mage revolutionaries and possible outside influences instigated a Rite of Annullment in Kirkwall, and are fabricating events elsewhere and pushing independence. They will be doing so with all they have, and will continue doing so regardless of Tranquility.

The 'average' Mages are also concerned with the practicals: the massacre of Kirkwall, not the relatively rare tranquility. Most Circles aren't Kirkwall, where it was limited, and the people who are made Tranquil are either volunteers or people even senior mages agree are better off not trusted. Tranquility, while frightening, is not the big Templar sin driving tensions. The reduction of tensions will be limited, since it's not a key issue.

On the other hand, the reaction to the cure from the Templar direction are almost certain to raise tensions. Either by moving from Tranquility to mandatory executions for those who can't be trusted, or denying any escape via Tranquility and locking the Tranquil away as well. Or both, really.

Where does the tension meter balance: with the good will gained by resolving a minor issue for average mages, or with an increase in fears of Templar jailors and executioners like at that Kirkwall place?

[The Flying Grey Warden]

So why would a cure that only the templars know about and are allowed to enact, that was well regulated and would have the same stringent and heavily safeguard method of criteria that judging someone to be tranquiled would be employed, would lead to mass murder and the destruction of all things the circle holds dear.

[Celtic Latino]

His whole DA2 romance hinged on the idea that you supported the mages and he 'liked' you for it. Honestly I don't even think he liked Hawke at all but used him/her and played with his/her emotions. Think about it. If you flirted with Anders, he kept whining about the mages while putting on a 'poor sorry me' act. He claimed he loved you in order for you to keep doing his bidding. Especially towards the last part, where Anders used emotional blackmail to get you to 'gather his materials', that right there said everything.

He's very manipulative. Which is one of the main reasons he gets the murder knife in most of my DA2 runs when he's not ignored or pushed to the side. Even when Hawke's mother died he's just like "I hope you know not all mages are like that...". He's selfish and manipulative. Whoever wrote him clearly intended for him to be hated.

[Dean_the_Young]

The Flying Grey Warden wrote...

So why would a cure that only the templars know about and are allowed to enact, that was well regulated and would have the same stringent and heavily safeguard method of criteria that judging someone to be tranquiled would be employed, would lead to mass murder and the destruction of all things the circle holds dear.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say. Awkward syntax. I assume you were responding to me?

The Templars wouldn't be the only ones to know about it because the cured-Tranquil would also know, even if the Templars finished the cure in secret without the mages or divine knowing. Unless you intend to lock the cured Tranquil in solitary away from everyone else for all time, the news will get to the mages. Which, of course, would invite their own attempts to recreate: knowing something is possible is half the difficulty in creation, as a professor once told me.

The rest is a matter of simple crime. The Templars can be the only ones allowed to enact it, but it's irrelevant if the knowledge escapes their control. Just one mage with mind-control, chantry sympathizer, mundane theif, or Templar defector or corruption needs to be successful to leak the secret, and the maleficar networks can do the rest to preserve and spread the knowledge around. Given the potency of what's at stake, and the possible rewards, I wouldn't bet too much on it being a long-lived secret once people realize the Templars have it.

Once the knoweldge spreads, the Templar monopology can't be relied upon to prevent tranquil from being cured. That undermines the premise of letting people go Tranquil in the first place, and that in turn challenges the Harrowing. Changing the Harrowing by removing the third option is a scenario no one wants: either executions go up to compensate for the lack of Tranquility, or the quality of 'reliable' mages goes down as the prior tranquility candidates enter the mage pool.

Unintended consequence? Certainly. But second and third-order effects usually are.

[Banxey]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Banxey2 wrote...

addiction21 wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

More like he was mad that Justinia was doing all of this behind his back, even though she really didn't need his permission.

To keep the Nevarren Accord yes she at the very least needed to inform him of it. 

You even say it she "was doing all of this behind his back" . No **** such a betrayal of trust is going to cause drama no matter the good intentions.

It wasn't behind his back. The Seekers are agents of the Divine. They're not equals. She doesn't have to share things with him. Clearly his personal issues dictate that he can't be trusted, because he wasn't doing as he was told by his superior. 

The Seekers aren't agents of the Divine by inherent authority: they subordinated themselves by a  agreement. The agreement doesn't go away once they are subordinate. They are not equals, but the superior does not have unlimited authority or freedom either. The root of authority is conditional to the agreement remaining intact.

If a leader by voluntary consent of the subordinate renenges on the deal that made them leader, then the leader loses the foundation of the authority. The subordinate has no obligation to remain as such, since the premise of the relationship derives from the priorities of the agreement that brought the union.

The other poster said that it was against the Nevarran Accord, and that what she did (organising an investigation) was behind his back. We don't know any specifics of the agreement, other than the Inquisition was to submit to the Divine's authority. The Seekers have their duties clearly defined, there's nothing in any of the information I've read which suggests that investigating methods of dealing with mages require the Lord Seeker's attention or authorisation.

What happened in the White Spire is a different matter, of course. But in regards to the investigation, I can't see how his duties come into conflict with the Divine's investigation.

[The Hierophant]

@Celtic Latino - It's even more messed up as he tries to convince Hawke to go along with a terrorist plot that'll jeopardise Bethany's life.