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[General TSAR]

No.

Hawke is an idiot who got trapped in the BioWare patented plot railroading sequence.

Modifié par General TSAR, 04 février 2014 - 02:09 .

[The Flying Grey Warden]

rasloveszev wrote...

The Flying Grey Warden wrote...

Well yeah, he was. He often used his circumstance as a crutch and a lot of times seemed to not want to have consequences befall mages, including blood mages, by playing up how bad and evil every templar wars and how wrong the chantry was. Legacy showed a lot about his character and how self-righteous and a little vain he was in thinking his account about what happened with mage history was right and everyone else was wrong, even with overwhelming evidence in front of him. He tried to use my hawke a lot to get things done for him, often by leaving out key details about what was really going on.

That being said though, anders wasn't too far more manipulative then anyone else was in dragon age. Except maybe aveline, isabela, and varric, they didn't seem to try and use you for their own ends too often, or were at least honest about it, and certainly didn't try to emotionally do so.

So he's manipulative, but at the same time manipulative is a subjective measurement to use.

I don't think he ever believed all Templars to be evil. He may have seen them as expendable in dire situtations,. 

By dire situations do you mean at the drop of a hat? My impression from him and asking him questions/bringing him along missions was that he was pretty much fenris with the templars. He hated them and didn't want them to exist anymore to the point of barely seeing them as people. I don't think he even liked thrask, I remember someone saying how he was a bad person because of what happened to his daughter and I'm almost certin it was him.

I may be mistaken though, it's been a while since I played the game truth be told.

[Dean_the_Young]

He degenerates. Early on he'll admit to concessions, the sort of 'not all Templars are rapist scum bags, but enough are,' before being less and less interested in moderating himself and more about drawing concessions out of him.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Do I consider him manipulative? Of course. He lies to get Hawke to help him blow up innocent people to start a war and if he gets called on his deception tries to emotionally blackmail Hawke into helping him anyway even though he admits he's going to kill people.

[eye basher]

Manipulative anders no he's just a pawn he doesn't have enough brains to put that plan nor the bomb together.

[wolfsite]

Yes which is why he ends up being exiled and later killed in every playthrough I do.

[rasloveszev]

[quote]The Flying Grey Warden wrote...

[quote]rasloveszev wrote...

[quote]The Flying Grey Warden wrote...

Well yeah, he was. He often used his circumstance as a crutch and a lot of times seemed to not want to have consequences befall mages, including blood mages, by playing up how bad and evil every templar wars and how wrong the chantry was. Legacy showed a lot about his character and how self-righteous and a little vain he was in thinking his account about what happened with mage history was right and everyone else was wrong, even with overwhelming evidence in front of him. He tried to use my hawke a lot to get things done for him, often by leaving out key details about what was really going on.

That being said though, anders wasn't too far more manipulative then anyone else was in dragon age. Except maybe aveline, isabela, and varric, they didn't seem to try and use you for their own ends too often, or were at least honest about it, and certainly didn't try to emotionally do so.

So he's manipulative, but at the same time manipulative is a subjective measurement to use.[/quote]

I don't think he ever believed all Templars to be evil. He may have seen them as expendable in dire situtations,. 

[/quote]

[quote]
By dire situations do you mean at the drop of a hat?  My impression from him and asking him questions/bringing him along missions was that he was pretty much fenris with the templars.
[/quote]

The only reason he wanted Thrask to die because he feared for the lives of the apostates. Unlike A-hole Fenris, Anders doesn't give you rivalry points for helping innocent Templars. That is why I like Anders over Fenris, to be honest.  A little sidenote, in Awakening, Anders didn't seem to mad about towards Allistair a bit despite his Templar history AND if you decided to marry ex-templar.

[quote]
He hated them and didn't want them to exist anymore to the point of barely seeing them as people. I don't think he even liked thrask, I remember someone saying how he was a bad person because of what happened to his daughter and I'm almost certin it was him.

I may be mistaken though, it's been a while since I played the game truth be told.
[/quote]

I believe you are definitely. If you're comparing him to Fenris, he is FAR more tame than the Elf. The only time he ever showed hatered towards ALL templars is when Vengence controls him. Meanwhile, Fenris is CONSTANTLY condemning mages to hell, and accusing them monsters that don't deserve even the hint of freedom. Normal Anders never that towards all Templars. He never gives you rivalry points for helping Keran keep his job, nor rivalry points for allowing Ser Thrask to live.

Modifié par rasloveszev, 04 février 2014 - 02:42 .

[CuriousArtemis]

I think to consider Anders "manipulative" is to misread the character entirely. (Although of course I'd be willing to listen to a reasoned argument to the contrary!)

Anders is VERY emotional; I mean he falls all over Hawke and even continues crushing on him (and I assume her) even if Hawke doesn't choose him. If they do begin a relationship, the guy pretty much wears his heart on his sleeve. He admits his feelings and even talks about how worried he is that his vendetta against the templars and the Circle could somehow hurt or even kill Hawke.

There is a moment when he is dishonest, which of course is when he asks Hawke to gather the ingredients for his bomb. However, if Hawke presses him, he will actually admit that he doesn't want or can't tell Hawke what the ingredients are truly for. At this point, Hawke can refuse to help him. But note that Anders is not manipulating or lying to him at this point. He's just saying, I can't tell you. It's up to Hawke whether or not to help him then.

I just don't see justification for labeling him manipulative. I've played the game many times, and I've romanced him twice. (I'm a Fenris fan, so it's not like I'm an Anders fanatic.) He is always sincere with Hawke because sincerity is part of his personality. He is extremely dedicated to his cause, and his passion makes it impossible for him to be deceitful.

Modifié par motomotogirl, 04 février 2014 - 02:53 .

[Martyr1777]

No, manipulative people get you to do thing you dont realize you are doing. Anders flat out asks you to get stuff, doesnt matter that he gives you a terrible lie for the reason. From and OOC sense its like 'oh, were making gunpowder. Seems like a bad way to release Justice.

[Grieving Natashina]

I read the topic and thought, "Is this a trick question?" You bet he manipulated Hawke, no doubt. I think he used his/her friendship (and possibly their love) into doing something that got some innocent people killed. I'm not talking about the Grand Cleric, but those that were in their with her.

One can be passionate but deceitful. If anything, passion can drive people to do more desperate things than they would otherwise.

I like Anders and I can see why he hit that breaking point. I'm not ripping on the character and he's one of my two favorite romances. However, I'll never forget how angry I was at that on my first session. Not everyone has immediate OOC knowledge of what they could be gathering, though looking back it's pretty obvious. I never thought Hawke had any knowledge of chemistry, so there is no way s/he would know.

I think the worst part for me was that my Hawke that romanced him would have gone along with it. The big difference is that Hawke would not have killed the grand cleric, but rather had her kidnapped and taken out of the city. My Hawke would have made sure that the building was empty.

[Banxey]

Even Morrigan tells you what she had planned eventually. She even warns you not to trust her. Morrigan! The woman who rolls her eyes when you help children. But no matter how close you are to Anders he still refuses to trust you. Then he tries to make you feel bad about not trusting him when you turn him down.

There really needed to be a "slap Anders" option.

[CuriousArtemis]

Starsyn wrote...

One can be passionate but deceitful. If anything, passion can drive people to do more desperate things than they would otherwise.

Oh indeed! And he is certainly very deceitful to Hawke there. But, like I said, Hawke CAN press him, and when s/he does, Anders crumbles. He reveals that the ingredients are not for what he said they were. Because he cares for Hawke (this is Anders' way of thinking, not mine) he also says he can't tell Hawke what the ingredients are truly for. That's being honest. 

So, being dishonest/deceitful and being manipulative are not the same thing. I don't think Anders is manipulating Hawke. He is lying to him/her. And even then, he will reveal that he is lying.

[Fast Jimmy]

I consider this thread to be manipulative. Since it is not at all DA:I based.

[Scarlet Rabbi]

Do you consider a banana to be yellow? Anders IS manipulative.

[TEWR]

Ehhh... he tries to be. But he's rather bad at it, IMO.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 04 février 2014 - 04:12 .

[SgtSteel91]

It got really bad at the end of the game.

[Hazegurl]

General TSAR wrote...

No.

Hawke is an idiot who got trapped in the BioWare patented plot railroading sequence.

Pretty much. The only saving grace is that at least Hawke can call him out and expose his lying, but only after he asks to sneak into the Chantry.

Anders is very much a manipluator. I wish there was an option to turn around and split on his quest the moment he tries to call Fenris out as a user. 

[SgtSteel91]

Can Hawke just not help Anders with gathering the ingredients or get them then refuse to distract the Cleric? The wiki says it's possible...

[Hellion Rex]

Redacted.

Modifié par eluvianix, 04 février 2014 - 04:29 .

[Parmida]

SgtSteel91 wrote...

Can Hawke just not help Anders with gathering the ingredients or get them then refuse to distract the Cleric? The wiki says it's possible...

Yes you can. When he tells you to distract the grand cleric, keep questioning him until he asks whether or not you'll help him and choose the "No.".

Or you can outright refuse gathering ingredients for him as well.

Modifié par Parmida, 04 février 2014 - 04:31 .

[Luiren]

I'm not sure if I'd say manipulative, perhaps misguided would be a tad more appropriate.

[masster blaster]

Not really.

[DRTJR]

He tricked my Very Pro-Chantry, Pro-Mage Hawke into collecting enough Materials to build a bomb.

[Hellion Rex]

DRTJR wrote...

He tricked my Very Pro-Chantry, Pro-Mage Hawke into collecting enough Materials to build a bomb.

You lost me...

[DRTJR]

eluvianix wrote...

DRTJR wrote...

He tricked my Very Pro-Chantry, Pro-Mage Hawke into collecting enough Materials to build a bomb.

You lost me...

Simple, He belives that the Chant is correct, and that Magic should serve that which is best not most base. He belives that in the current system it is Magic rules over the mages and the templars and not serving them, and that by introducing more freedoms that mages might come willingly to the Circle to learn how to master their talents then leave to do the Maker's work, and stuff,