501 réponses à ce sujet

[Lulupab]

Veruin wrote...

Exactly who decides what's neccesary?  The idiotic radicals? You?

The reality decides that. If you are from a free country who got independent from an oppressor then people have done despicable things to bring that freedom. The people who have done such things are regarded as murderes and terrorists by the oppressors but are freedom fighters for the oppressed. Also as mentioned above neither Elthina nor chantry is a civilian target. At that time it bloody ruled over the whole Thedas, Templars, Mages and Mundaes alike. The chantry had the power to overthrow any nobility and call for exalted marches.

[Rawgrim]

Anders was a self-righteous psycho. I would`t consider him to be very manipulative, though.

[Jaison1986]

@Br3ad: 1) right, what do you propose then? write an letter to the divine or the knight commander saying you are really upset with their abuses and they should stop? I'm sure that would work. Integrity is worth nothing if it means losing and dying without changing anything.

2) If you are so sure of yourself, please, tell me what Anders could have done instead? I'm sure you have plenty of ideas.

3) Wynne was possessed. She lived 10 years like that and never caused any trouble. You are saying that those mages deserved to be executed just because they were doing something the templars disapproved of? Even tough they weren't causing any trouble?

4) I'm talking about the mages from Asunder. They didn't blew up anything or murdered anyone. Did they said at any point that they would take over the world once they were free?

Modifié par Jaison1986, 04 février 2014 - 01:32 .

[esper]

Tequila Cat wrote...

esper wrote...

Tequila Cat wrote...

Rassler wrote...

esper wrote...

If telling a lie i one sitation to achieve something makes you consistently manipulative, then we all are so.

He was manipulative in bomb situation and emotional blackmail is always nasty to get on the sticky end off, but considering why he did it I understand. Still it is never comfortable to experience.

I could never kill Anders for what he did. Yes, his actions were horrible but they were also necessary. As much as I hate to say this, war happens. Death happens. Murder happens. But sometimes, these actions are necessary to accelerate change. People are scared of change. Sometimes (again I hate to say this) people have to be shocked into taking the first step. 

I'm sure the IRA tried to rationalise bombing civilian targets in Britain in the same way. 

And I am pretty sure the french monarchs considered the rebels law abiding citizien, just as rest of the world considered Napoleon a saint for stopping the cabinet of terror that followed (is that the english expression of it?). Once we gets to these sort of wars it is never pretty or clear cut and someone will always get hurt.

And then we are not even getting into the fact that Elthina and the chantry wasn't a civilian target. The chantry is a military organisation, which was in charge of the circle, they are not our modern non-military church.

So the medieval church was a military target, riiiight so why was it that Church ground was considered off limits and safe ground through out medieval history?

From the 6th century AD under the Merovingians up until the Tudor period and the Reformation? Spilling blood on church ground was a huge sin. Or didn't the subsequent murder of Archbishop of Canterbury, lead to the widescale revulsion of the current monarchy and the mortal sin of the men who carried out the act after the condemnation of the Pope. Or didn't the families of those who lost conflicts in the 50 years of civil war in the War of the Roses, didn't repeatedly seek shelter on church grounds?

The chantry =/= our church. The chantry have a religion that is build on violence. The chantry is only our medivial church if Joan D'arc was jesus. The chantry only offer shelter if a particulary do good'er in the chantry (as the one in awakening) feels like it.  I don't even think the chantry have the concept of asyl.

Elthina was Meridiths direct superior. A laughable ineffective one, but it doens't absolve her. She could have told Meridith to stand down at anytime. Teoretically she could even have fired Meridith (though Meridithw was so mad that she would properly have killed elthina if she tried). Elthina could have ended the conflict in Kirkwall anytime by either allowing Meridith to annul the circle or firing Meridith. She didn't. Just like she didn't strip Petrice or her rank no matter what or who Hawke have with her when she present Elthina with the evidence that Petrice is misusing her authority.

Modifié par esper, 04 février 2014 - 01:35 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Hippiethecat124 wrote...

I used to really enjoy the Anders romance, but after joining the BSN and seeing all the hate, I decided to watch for the things people called him out on the next time I played, and.... holy crap.

I felt dirty doing the Justice mission. The way he blatantly played with Hawke's feelings for him, using her and crew to help make his magic-bomb, and then say there after the Chantry attack and pretty much says, "Yep, love, I played you like a cheap kazoo. Now knife me, if you have a pair "

It made me extremely uncomfortable, though I wound up completing the romance after sending him away for the first time, just because it was going to be my cannon world state. It's still a good story, but I won't let my Inquisitor get within twenty meters of the man. No way.

I had a similar experience with the ME2 romances with a male Shepard, though for me it was less 'I've been played' and more 'I am engaging in such a mysogynistic, unhealthy relationship' for two of the three, and 'this is such an unprofessional nerd power fantasy' for the third. In reverse order, the Tali-mance struck me as immature and reckless on the parts of both Shepard and Tali, while Miranda and Jack both have extremely unfortunate implications of how distressed women (strong or broken) need the power of the magical healing **** to become happy and healthy. Miranda was just disappointing, but Jack was downright disturbing from the perspective of someone who's seen well-intentioned people prey on the emotionally scarred.

[Hellion Rex]

Veruin wrote...

Exactly who decides what's neccesary?  The idiotic radicals? You?

One man's terrorist is another man's hero.

[Br3admax]

Jaison1986 wrote...

@Br3ad: 1) right, what do you propose then? write an letter to the divine or the knight commander saying you are really upset with their abuses and they should stop? I'm sure that would work. Integrity is worth nothing if it means losing and dying without changing anything.

So the next best thing is blowing up people? Mages deserve no change if this is the type of thinking that they have without power. 

2) If you are so sure of yourself, please, tell me what Anders could have done instead? I'm sure you have plenty of ideas.

Like the ones I've already given. If you do not like those, I'm sure you can think up something better than, "Let's go blow up a church."

3) Wynne was possessed. She lived 10 years like that and never caused any trouble. You are saying that those mages deserved to be executed just because they were doing something the templars disapproved of? Even tough they weren't causing any trouble?

Uh, yeah that's exactly what I'm saying. Wynne being a special little companion snowflake compared to the many others who have gone insane and killed should somehow make me think differently? No.

4) I'm talking about the mages from Asunder. They didn't blew up anything or murdered anyone. Did they said at any point that they would take over the world once they were free?

What they say they want to garner sympathy hardly matters, and to the point, it's human nature. Finally, I care less about mages ruling the world, beinga supporter of Tevinter, and more about mages not being kept in a place where they can learn to properly protect themselves and be watched if even these fail. Freedom matters little when it only causes death to the majority.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

I am so tempted to bring in quotes from Code Geass for this discussion on the two sides of terrorism.

[Dean_the_Young]

Rassler wrote...

Veruin wrote...

Exactly who decides what's neccesary?  The idiotic radicals? You?

The reality decides that. If you are from a free country who got independent from an oppressor then people have done despicable things to bring that freedom. The people who have done such things are regarded as murderes and terrorists by the oppressors but are freedom fighters for the oppressed.

That people do dispicable things in the pursuit of a goal
doesn't mean that dispicable things are necessary in pursuit of them.
Excess is quite possible, and even counterproductive: if Anders' goal was ever to free the Kirkwall Circle, he certainly screwed that one up.

There's also the false assumption of conrasting perspectives. Oppressed and oppressors don't have binary viewpoints by default, and anyone who opposses the oppressor is not automatically loved by the oppressed. Evil versus evil exists, and the oppressed are quite capable of condemning an excessive revolutionary or even supporting the oppressor against them.

Also as mentioned above neither Elthina nor chantry is a civilian target.

As before, you are wrong.

At that time it bloody ruled over the whole Thedas, Templars, Mages and Mundaes alike.

At the time, you would be dreadfully wrong, which is probably why your analysis is so scewed. The only two countries the Chantry has extreme influence in are Orlais and Kirkwall, and these are via close allies (the Empress) or through proxies (Meredith, who had her own proxy). In other countries, power rests with local actors: the Ferelden royalty and free holders, the Wardens in the Anderfels, the Assassins of what's-its'-name, Tevinter's mages, the Qunari, and so on. Those are the ones who rule the Mundanes.

Even the relationship with Templar and Mages is severely limited. The Circles are self-governing with limited oversight, mostly from the Templars. And the Templars themselves are self-organized and self-led- indeed, by this point the Templars are so autonomous that they successfully break away from the Chantry when irreconciliable differences arive. In Kirkwall especially, the Templars under Meredith, not the local Chantry, are the dominant force politically and militarily. The Chantry controls neither institution- it has influence and respect, but it neither directs the Circles or serves as a political officers or leaders to the Templars. These limitations to its power are what give confuse peope.

The chantry had the power to overthrow any nobility and call for exalted marches.

But not as easily or unilaterally as your present.

[Jaison1986]

Br3ad wrote...

Jaison1986 wrote...

@Br3ad: 1) right, what do you propose then? write an letter to the divine or the knight commander saying you are really upset with their abuses and they should stop? I'm sure that would work. Integrity is worth nothing if it means losing and dying without changing anything.

So the next best thing is blowing up people? Mages deserve no change if this is the type of thinking that they have without power. 

2) If you are so sure of yourself, please, tell me what Anders could have done instead? I'm sure you have plenty of ideas.

Like the ones I've already given. If you do not like those, I'm sure you can think up something better than, "Let's go blow up a church."

3) Wynne was possessed. She lived 10 years like that and never caused any trouble. You are saying that those mages deserved to be executed just because they were doing something the templars disapproved of? Even tough they weren't causing any trouble?

Uh, yeah that's exactly what I'm saying. Wynne being a special little companion snowflake compared to the many others who have gone insane and killed should somehow make me think differently? No.

4) I'm talking about the mages from Asunder. They didn't blew up anything or murdered anyone. Did they said at any point that they would take over the world once they were free?

What they say they want to garner sympathy hardly matters, and to the point, it's human nature. Finally, I care less about mages ruling the world, beinga supporter of Tevinter, and more about mages not being kept in a place where they can learn to properly protect themselves and be watched if even these fail. Freedom matters little when it only causes death to the majority.

You talk as if the templars never did anything wrong to get what they wanted. I just love this reasoning. "Templars and the Chantry commit dozens of attrocities against minorities through out history and it's totally justified because it's the templars and the chantry doing it" and then "An minority does an extreme act to get what they want, but because they are NOT the chantry and the templars it's an crime without justification".

[Veruin]

Jaison1986 wrote..

You talk as if the templars never did anything wrong to get what they wanted. I just love this reasoning. "Templars and the Chantry commit dozens of attrocities against minorities through out history and it's totally justified because it's the templars and the chantry doing it" and then "An minority does an extreme act to get what they want, but because they are NOT the chantry and the templars it's an crime without justification".

I love how you shove words into his mouth because he doesn't agree with your idiotic views.

[Jeremiah12LGeek]

- Began as a thread about whether Anders would be manipulative in DA:I

- Became a thread debating the merits of terrorism

Yup... just making sure I know what I've wandered into.

[Hellion Rex]

Jeremiah12LGeek wrote...

- Began as a thread about whether Anders would be manipulative in DA:I

- Became a thread debating the merits of terrorism

Yup... just making sure I know what I've wandered into.

Welcome to the BSN!

[superdeathdealer14]

Jeremiah12LGeek wrote...

- Began as a thread about whether Anders would be manipulative in DA:I

- Became a thread debating the merits of terrorism

Yup... just making sure I know what I've wandered into.

Welcome to the BSN where we argue about cake, unicorns, waifus, husbandos and we have annual privilege checking (Thank you Veruin for that one) and where even the most simple threads go out of control. We hope you'll enjoy your stay.
 

Modifié par superdeathdealer14, 04 février 2014 - 02:15 .

[DragonRacer]

Jeremiah12LGeek wrote...

- Began as a thread about whether Anders would be manipulative in DA:I

- Became a thread debating the merits of terrorism

Yup... just making sure I know what I've wandered into.

DA forums, man...

[Ieldra]

*Chuckles*

I consider Anders (the DA2 version) to be Bioware's most successful character, controversial in a kind people talk about for years. How this thread has been going is indicative of this.

As for the OP's question: yes, I think Anders was manipulative, especially to a Hawke in a romance with him. Which annoyed me a great deal since with my mage revolutionary Rowan Hawke, I had to compromise my roleplaying to keep the story going where I wanted it to go. Emotional blackmail is usually a reason for an instant breakup for a character like her.

His manipulativeness is also tied to a quite irritating bug:

If you concluded your romance with Anders, you're perfectly justified in ending it after how he manipulated you, but if you kill a romanced Anders after he blows up the Chantry, the epilogue will still tell you that everyone separated from Hawke but Anders. Apparently Hawkes who romanced Anders are supposed to forgive both the emotional blackmail and the Chantry blowup. Not that this Hawke had any problems with the latter...

[Lulupab]

The Mad Hanar wrote...

All this doesn't really change the fact that Anders blew up a lot of people to have people listen to the fact that mages aren't evil or dangerous. Can you not see the hypocrisy or flat out stupidity of such an act? Are you saying that every minority in history that is oppressed should kill innocent people? Do you feel that violence is the only answer, and do you feel llke wars of ideology have never been waged and won?

There is nothin more stupid than trying to apply the norms of a post merchantile democratic society in a pre-merchantile feudal society. Its a crucial logical mistake.

Truly nowadays such an act of terrorism is abhorrent, inexcusable and not an effective carrier of change. People react to exercises of strength or violence in a different manner and a non agressive approach is much more plausible because most of our societies have democratic regimes or even before those at least in the past 3 centuries there was a diffusion of authority because of merchantile strength and the rise of the burgeois against the feudal system. Dragon Age is clearly a feudal society and not a particularly enlightened one politically. The common people have no electoral power and very minor purchasing power. The feudal lords have very limited electoral power which is under the constant censure of military and religious power centers. Ferelden is perhaps further advanced because its existence is in opposition to Orlais; their nationalism is defined in opposition to Orlesian norms and it is well likely that the Orlesians could reclaim it at any moment.

Kirkwall is much different. Its viscounts are presented to have ruled under the approval of the chantry and templars. If the common people rebelled against Meredith, she would simply put them down; in fact Leliana makes it pretty clear that the Divine might well put the entire city to the torch. In this balance, one should consider the choice made by Anders. Perhaps change could be accomplished with a moderate approach but it would not take decades, but rather centuries. Not until the economic and political structures could support rights movements would the Mages be able to tap to the concordance of the collective to force political reforms. In this time we are weighing a likely short though violent war against the current situation. Templars do not simply incarcerate mages. There are extensive instances of molestation and rape, constant psychological violence, and the right of tranquility which is not only murder of  will and close to slavery but also largely economical exploitation; the skills of the Tranquil in enchantment partly fund the Chantry and the Templars. All I am saying is, do not compare what Anders did with examples of social reforms in the past century cause there is no analogy. Rather consider any instances of actual social reform taking place peacefully in the Dark Ages.

Sorry for long post but the situation demanded it.

[GreyLycanTrope]

Jeremiah12LGeek wrote...

- Began as a thread about whether Anders would be manipulative in DA:I

- Became a thread debating the merits of terrorism

Yup... just making sure I know what I've wandered into.

Where else would a thread about Anders go though?

Modifié par Greylycantrope, 04 février 2014 - 02:07 .

[Veruin]

superdeathdealer14 wrote...

Welcome to the BSN where we argue about cake, unicorns, waifus, husbandos and where simple threads go out of control. We hope you'll enjoy your stay.

Don't forget the priviledge checking.

[Br3admax]

Greylycantrope wrote...

Jeremiah12LGeek wrote...

- Began as a thread about whether Anders would be manipulative in DA:I

- Became a thread debating the merits of terrorism

Yup... just making sure I know what I've wandered into.

Where else would a thread about Anders go though?

This world is made of Love and Peace!

[superdeathdealer14]

Veruin wrote...

Don't forget the priviledge checking.

Just remembered that. 

[Dean_the_Young]

Jaison1986 wrote...

@Br3ad: 1) right, what do you propose then? write an letter to the divine or the knight commander saying you are really upset with their abuses and they should stop? I'm sure that would work. Integrity is worth nothing if it means losing and dying without changing anything.

If your standard for success is anything, then even modest successes would suffice, no? 

In that case- publicize the abuses! Bring out the truth about the Tranquil Solution, which was forbidden even by Meredith! Help individuals escape.

2) If you are so sure of yourself, please, tell me what Anders could have done instead? I'm sure you have plenty of ideas.

If your beef is with the Templars being too powerful, then targetting Templars would be easy, especially once they're taken over the city. Ambush patrols, conduct insurgency warfare from the bowels of the city that targets only them, and roll back their political gains. Create no-go zones in which Templars can not go without extreme effort, and use these to re-establish the smuggling networks into the Circles.

We can offer a lot of things that would help the Kirkwall mages far more than instigating a massacre of them that only Hawke and co walk away from.

3) Wynne was possessed. She lived 10 years like that and never caused any trouble. You are saying that those mages deserved to be executed just because they were doing something the templars disapproved of?

When the standard is increasing disregard for others, megalomania or insanity, and high body counts for all around them? Well, they certainly shouldn't be allowed to run free. Past that, your acceptence of the risk

Wynne in particular should be studied intensively, to understand why she was an exception to the norm. If it's something that can be replicated and normalized, that would go a long way to mitigating the abomination threat. If it's a mutation, say a result of a specific sort of spirit with a specific mindset/character, then it may not be a significant deviation: a spirit of Faith in Wynn reinforces Wynn's humility and patience, but escalates a more volatile person's belief in their less benign occupation.

Even tough they weren't causing any trouble?

Who says they weren't causing trouble? The Codex entry doesn't address that one way or the other.

In fact, the common claim that the witches never hurt the local populace is also curiously unsupported. There's a general lack of details about them in general, including how they are perceived or interact.

4) I'm talking about the mages from Asunder. They didn't blew up anything or murdered anyone. Did they said at any point that they would take over the world once they were free?

Did they need to, in order to potentially pose the threat to do the same?

[Hellion Rex]

The Mad Hanar wrote...

Jaison1986 wrote...

@Br3ad: 1) right, what do you propose then? write an letter to the divine or the knight commander saying you are really upset with their abuses and they should stop? I'm sure that would work. Integrity is worth nothing if it means losing and dying without changing anything.

2) If you are so sure of yourself, please, tell me what Anders could have done instead? I'm sure you have plenty of ideas.

3) Wynne was possessed. She lived 10 years like that and never caused any trouble. You are saying that those mages deserved to be executed just because they were doing something the templars disapproved of? Even tough they weren't causing any trouble?

4) I'm talking about the mages from Asunder. They didn't blew up anything or murdered anyone. Did they said at any point that they would take over the world once they were free?

All this doesn't really change the fact that Anders blew up a lot of people to have people listen to the fact that mages aren't evil or dangerous. Can you not see the hypocrisy or flat out stupidity of such an act? Are you saying that every minority in history that is oppressed should kill innocent people? Do you feel that violence is the only answer, and do you feel llke wars of ideology have never been waged and won?

^^This.