501 réponses à ce sujet

[Lulupab]

hhh89 wrote...

@Rassler: who said that a demon blew up the Chantry in Asunder? Fiona specifically talked about Anders.

Not Fiona, common folk.

[The Flying Grey Warden]

Rassler wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

Guess what, people on our side do terrible things everyday. No one's calling them heroes. Not the way you're making it seem, Rassler. I don't think you actually understand that war actually does have laws to it. It isn't a free for all to get the job done. Otherwise, we would nuke until everyone glows green and then shoot them in the dark.

Anders is NOT a hero. He knows change will not come without drastic measures so he offers himself. To compare how society works in Dragon age to ours will get us nowhere in this debate. The Dragon age universe is not a refection of our world, our struggles, or moral stances; it just simply is. People like Anders won't be rememberd for heroism or morality, its because of actions of people like him that actual Heroes find opportunities to rise and bring change by following moral high roads.

My signature is a mix of Flemeth and Anders' quotes, "There are men who embrace destiny and do not show their fear.... These who change the world, forever". I am quite sure this was not said meaninglessly.

So basically he's an **** villain who everyone hates and the heroes of the next game get to hate him, and all he'll be doing in the fade is being all "I MADE YOU ALL" and stuff, annoying the other ghosts, lowering the property value of the fade with his shouting, leaving hair in the fade showers because he's a bad roommate.

That the long and short of it?

[Hellion Rex]

Rassler wrote...
My signature is a mix of Flemeth and Anders' quotes, "There are men who embrace destiny and do not show their fear.... These who change the world, forever". I am quite sure this was not said meaninglessly.

Ummm, I'm pretty sure Flemeth was more referring to the collective actions of the Warden, Hawke, and the Inquisitor, plus whatever protagonists may follow.

[Hellion Rex]

The Flying Grey Warden wrote...

Rassler wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

Guess what, people on our side do terrible things everyday. No one's calling them heroes. Not the way you're making it seem, Rassler. I don't think you actually understand that war actually does have laws to it. It isn't a free for all to get the job done. Otherwise, we would nuke until everyone glows green and then shoot them in the dark.

Anders is NOT a hero. He knows change will not come without drastic measures so he offers himself. To compare how society works in Dragon age to ours will get us nowhere in this debate. The Dragon age universe is not a refection of our world, our struggles, or moral stances; it just simply is. People like Anders won't be rememberd for heroism or morality, its because of actions of people like him that actual Heroes find opportunities to rise and bring change by following moral high roads.

My signature is a mix of Flemeth and Anders' quotes, "There are men who embrace destiny and do not show their fear.... These who change the world, forever". I am quite sure this was not said meaninglessly.

So basically he's an **** villain who everyone hates and the heroes of the next game get to hate him, and all he'll be doing in the fade is being all "I MADE YOU ALL" and stuff, annoying the other ghosts, lowering the property value of the fade with his shouting, leaving hair in the fade showers because he's a bad roommate.

That the long and short of it?

You lost me...

[The Flying Grey Warden]

Making the argument that anders did something good because he did something so evil other people need to rise up and clean his mess up and may, just possible and probably by accident, clean up the problem he wanted to clean up, seems like a really complicated and long about to call him a bad person.

[Lulupab]

eluvianix wrote...

Rassler wrote...
My signature is a mix of Flemeth and Anders' quotes, "There are men who embrace destiny and do not show their fear.... These who change the world, forever". I am quite sure this was not said meaninglessly.

Ummm, I'm pretty sure Flemeth was more referring to the collective actions of the Warden, Hawke, and the Inquisitor, plus whatever protagonists may follow.

You couldn't connect the dots? I am dissappointed. What did I just said before the signature thing? It is because of gray characters like Anders that Heroes find opportunities to change the world forever with moral grounds. Without Anders there is very good chance the champion wouldn't be involved at mage-templar at all. or at least not as significantly.

[The Elder King]

Rassler wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

@Rassler: who said that a demon blew up the Chantry in Asunder? Fiona specifically talked about Anders.

Not Fiona, common folk.

Fair enough, but that doesn't mean his name his going to be forgotten. The are likely going to be records on the events, since the Chantry, templars and mages clearly know about him.
Of course a good aumont of people will not know about him in the near future, but it tales starts to spread, his name could be known. 

[The Flying Grey Warden]

Rassler wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Rassler wrote...
My
signature is a mix of Flemeth and Anders' quotes, "There are men who
embrace destiny and do not show their fear.... These who change the
world, forever". I am quite sure this was not said meaninglessly.

Ummm,
I'm pretty sure Flemeth was more referring to the collective actions of
the Warden, Hawke, and the Inquisitor, plus whatever protagonists may
follow.

You couldn't connect the dots? I am
dissappointed. What did I just said before the signature thing? It is
because of gray characters like Anders that Heroes find opportunities to
change the world forever with moral grounds. Without Anders there is
very good chance the champion wouldn't be involved at mage-templar at
all. or at least not as significantly.

The war he started you mean. The war that's entirely his fault, that he provoked, with his own selfishness. The war started by killing many innocent people for the sake of sending a political message. That war where he weighted the lives of innocent people against a flimsy ideological stance and found them worth nothing.

Modifié par The Flying Grey Warden, 04 février 2014 - 05:48 .

[AresKeith]

Rassler wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Rassler wrote...
My signature is a mix of Flemeth and Anders' quotes, "There are men who embrace destiny and do not show their fear.... These who change the world, forever". I am quite sure this was not said meaninglessly.

Ummm, I'm pretty sure Flemeth was more referring to the collective actions of the Warden, Hawke, and the Inquisitor, plus whatever protagonists may follow.

You couldn't connect the dots? I am dissappointed. What did I just said before the signature thing? It is because of gray characters like Anders that Heroes find opportunities to change the world forever with moral grounds. Without Anders there is very good chance the champion wouldn't be involved at mage-templar at all. or at least not as significantly.

lol @ Anders being a grey character

[Hellion Rex]

The Flying Grey Warden wrote...


The war he started you mean. The war that's entirely his fault, that he provoked, with his own selfishness. The war started by killing many innocent people for the sake of sending a political message. That war where he weighted the lives of innocent people against a flimsy ideological stance and found them worth nothing.

I disagree. This war was a long time coming. Anders was only adding more more fuel to the fire. Asunder ignited this inevitable war.

Modifié par eluvianix, 04 février 2014 - 05:52 .

[General TSAR]

AresKeith wrote...

lol @ Anders being a grey character

Lol indeed. 

[Trolldrool]

HiroVoid wrote...

Trolldrool wrote...

I think it was a member of Sinn Fein (I don't remember who, he was quoted by a lecturer at the university I attend and I might not be repeating the exact quote accurately) who once said;

To those who understand, no explanation is necessary. To those who don't understand, no explanation is possible.

I hear those words over and over everytime I see a discussion on BSN between pro-magi and pro-templars.

So what's your actual opinion on events?

My opinion is that both mages and templars got the shaft in DA2, showing only the extremes of both sides and killing off all the moderates (like the several dozen mages and templars in Act 3 working together to overthrow Meredith). Admittedly, I was a templar supporter once, but now I care equally little for either side.

If you meant how I feel about the topic of the forum. *shrug* I suppose Anders is manipulative in that he never talks about anything else and always forces the issue into every conversation, demanding that I take a stance and acting disappointed or betrayed if my opinion doesn't satisfy his expectations.

[Beerfish]

[quote]Rassler wrote...

[quote]Beerfish wrote...



Also Anders admits what he did was wrong so no its not right in his eyes.

[/quote]

So he feels it was wrong but you don't is that the gist of it?  Because a necessisty does not = wrong in most rational peoples values when it comes to something as dire as this.

'What I did was wrong but it was necessary' is an illogical statement.  He did what he did becasue he though it was the right thing to do to forward his agenda.  To say after the fact that what I did was wrong is a lie unless he is pleading insanity.

[Lulupab]

AresKeith wrote...

Rassler wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Rassler wrote...
My signature is a mix of Flemeth and Anders' quotes, "There are men who embrace destiny and do not show their fear.... These who change the world, forever". I am quite sure this was not said meaninglessly.

Ummm, I'm pretty sure Flemeth was more referring to the collective actions of the Warden, Hawke, and the Inquisitor, plus whatever protagonists may follow.

You couldn't connect the dots? I am dissappointed. What did I just said before the signature thing? It is because of gray characters like Anders that Heroes find opportunities to change the world forever with moral grounds. Without Anders there is very good chance the champion wouldn't be involved at mage-templar at all. or at least not as significantly.

lol @ Anders being a grey character

Yep confirmed by David Gaider himself. 

[General TSAR]

In a post you can't even find.

[Beerfish]

Rassler wrote...



Anders is NOT a hero. He knows change will not come without drastic measures so he offers himself.

lol, you mean he offers hundreds of innocent people.  Your two sentences are opposing.  He is not a hero but he offers himself (which is the very portrayl of a hero.)

[Lulupab]

eluvianix wrote...

The Flying Grey Warden wrote...


The war he started you mean. The war that's entirely his fault, that he provoked, with his own selfishness. The war started by killing many innocent people for the sake of sending a political message. That war where he weighted the lives of innocent people against a flimsy ideological stance and found them worth nothing.

I disagree. This war was a long time coming. Anders was only adding more more fuel to the fire. Asunder ignited this inevitable war.

Indeed. Anders was very much like Adrian. They added a lot of fuel but did not ignite the whole thing.

[Beerfish]

Rassler wrote...



Yep confirmed by David Gaider himself. 

The words of a writer have zero meaning in how the character is perceived.  If 998 people out of 1000 people after playing the game say he is not a grey character and two including gaider says he is then gaider loses.

[KotorEffect3]

No, I would say he was obsessed, fanatical even, but not manipulative. But then again I agree with him when it comes to the Templars.

[Beerfish]

Rassler wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

The Flying Grey Warden wrote...


The war he started you mean. The war that's entirely his fault, that he provoked, with his own selfishness. The war started by killing many innocent people for the sake of sending a political message. That war where he weighted the lives of innocent people against a flimsy ideological stance and found them worth nothing.

I disagree. This war was a long time coming. Anders was only adding more more fuel to the fire. Asunder ignited this inevitable war.

Indeed. Anders was very much like Adrian. They added a lot of fuel but did not ignite the whole thing.

The common thing between the two was that they were more than happy to see many of their fellow mages killed or lives made a lot worse off to justify their own politcal agendas.  Agendas that have never been proven to be totally embraced by the mage community as a whole.

[Lulupab]

Beerfish wrote...

Rassler wrote...



Yep confirmed by David Gaider himself. 

The words of a writer have zero meaning in how the character is perceived.  If 998 people out of 1000 people after playing the game say he is not a grey character and two including gaider says he is then gaider loses.

He happens to be the main writer of whole universe, more like a god. He can make the sky of Thedas green if he wanted. He has created a gray character in the world he has created. Fact? He is gray but feel free to perceive him as you wish.

[Lulupab]

General TSAR wrote...

In a post you can't even find.

Your avatar does you credit. You won't even understand this but whatever.

http://dgaider.tumbl...tions-on-anders

[HiroVoid]

Rassler wrote...

Beerfish wrote...

Rassler wrote...



Yep confirmed by David Gaider himself. 

The words of a writer have zero meaning in how the character is perceived.  If 998 people out of 1000 people after playing the game say he is not a grey character and two including gaider says he is then gaider loses.

 He can make the sky of Thedas green if he wanted.

You're wrong.

[Silfren]

Rassler wrote...

Beerfish wrote...

Rassler wrote...



Yep confirmed by David Gaider himself. 

The words of a writer have zero meaning in how the character is perceived.  If 998 people out of 1000 people after playing the game say he is not a grey character and two including gaider says he is then gaider loses.

He happens to be the main writer of whole universe, more like a god. He can make the sky of Thedas green if he wanted. He has created a gray character in the world he has created. Fact? He is gray but feel free to perceive him as you wish.

Just FYI you are seriously inflating Gaider's role as Lead Writer.  He writes what he is told to write.  He is not the creator of the story or the universe, and thus, NO, he cannot just do whatever he wants.  He's told "This is the story we want and the world we want it set in.  You make it happen."


Beyond that, it's true that what a writer says is or isn't true about a character has little bearing on how that character will be perceived.  That said, perceptions are not law.  If 98% of people perceive the character one way, and 2 percent view them differently, that in no way makes that tiny percentage WRONG necessarily.  It rather depends on exactly what it is that is being perceived differently in the first place.  If a book says the sky is purple but someone claims the book says that the sky is yellow, then obviously that is factually wrong.  But that's something of a different matter over a person's personal judgment of whether a character is morally ambiguous or not.

Modifié par Silfren, 04 février 2014 - 06:13 .

[TheKomandorShepard]

Well despite his whines for through entire game anders was grey character he had noble goal but not nice means pretty much in the end he was well-intentioned extremist with utopia justifies means hell he was even helping peoples for free and was compassionate (at least in frist act).Despite what many pro-templars hating him anders reminded templars (at least with same mindset) just on mages side and even if he blow up chantry and killed "innocent" peoples he still knew that was for him morally wrong and felt guilty (and crap this is something that many peoples in that series lacks with that mindset) but saw that as necessity because of his utopia justifies means mindset (pretty much templar organisation had/have such mindset as well many other organisations or characters).So lets be honest anders had positive and negative traits and neither dominant so he could be white or black.