167 réponses à ce sujet

[Ieldra]

First the confusing facts:

There are people who are known as, and call themselves, "qunari". In the past, they had been known as "kossith" but now they call themselves "qunari", but since that refers to being followers of the Qun, they have an extra name for members of their race who aren't: Tal-Vashoth. To everyone else with no specific education in the subject, "qunari" refers to the race, which is technically wrong but nobody, not even those who know, appears to mind. Furthermore, since the Qun is a philosophy it can acquire followers of other races. These are also called "qunari" by people who know "the" qunari are called that because of the philosophy they follow, but the horned qunari only consider members of their own race qunari and have different terms for acquired followers from other races. There is no widely-known or widely-accepted name for the horned race as such, and people who use "kossith" are using a term the race itself doesn't use anymore.

So...WTF?

You know, I really like all this confusion. It sounds so....real-world. Many people may be unaware of this, but there are real religions tied to ethnicity which result in a very similar confusion in terms where almost everybody who isn't a scholar of that particular subject gets things technically wrong in everyday speech, but most people who actually know about the confusion don't bother to correct everyone else because things are just too complicated and it isn't worth it.

Just like the real-world equivalent, I don't think the confusion is intentional on Bioware's part but rather a result of the evolution of terms and worldbuilding, but that doesn't make me appreciate it less. A nice example of things not being conveniently and unambiguously labeled.

[Hellion Rex]

That's great and all, Ieldra. But every time someone brings up this debate, I want to bash my head against the wall.

[Silfren]

eluvianix wrote...

That's great and all, Ieldra. But every time someone brings up this debate, I want to bash my head against the wall.

*resolves to bring up this debate five times a day from now on*

[Naesaki]

Somewhere deep within the confines of Bioware they wish they never created the "Kossith" term xD

[CybAnt1]

You know, I really like all this confusion.

I think it makes for a great in-world game element. No problem there.

Just don't get why we need to replicate the confusion/conflation here on forums for discussion. 

There are many people who want to RP outside of the actual game and do it here on the forums, I'm not one, I prefer to discuss things in English, not qunlat; I also don't discuss Klingon culture utilizing Klingon on Star Trek forums, either. Well, unless there is a Klington term which is untranslateable. 

I will have no problem with never seeing the forbidden k-word in the game. I just don't get why people have become enforcers on tabooing use of it on the forum, where, in certain situations or on certain occasions, it might actually be the best descriptor to resolve ambiguity. 

That the race was known by something before it adopted its religion/ethos is a fact. That MOST today only want to be known by their ethos and not by their race now may also be one. As a result of that reason, the earlier term has practically disappered. I can see why most of Thedas has forgotten it. Just not why we have to use the Neuralyzer on players and fans. 

[CybAnt1]

eluvianix wrote...

That's great and all, Ieldra. But every time someone brings up this debate, I want to bash my head against the wall.

I hope the soft padding is nice and thick, e. Are your restraints too tight?

I kid, I kid. 

[Covi]

It's not really that complex. It just doesn't make sense and people spend a lot of time trying to make it appear otherwise.

[Trolldrool]

I don't have a problem understanding it. I appreciate the confusion because it shows how uniquely alien the Qunari culture is, compared to other RPGs where even orc or ogre or dark elf societies are described in ways to be understandable to the player if not necessarily relatable.

[brushyourteeth]

I'm with you, Ieldra. I think it's cool that you decided to make this topic, because you have an excellent point.

My only problem is when I post something on the forums and use the word kossith and actually *mean* kossith (as in, this is easier to say than "that large, bronze-skinned race from Par Vollen with horns but not necessarily the religious kind) and some nerd jumps on me and says "they're just called qunari hurr hurr" (paraphrased).

.... I also wish it were easier to draw the distinction between kossith qunari and non-kossith qunari, because I don't care what they might try to tell you -- there's bound to be some inherent racism within that religion. They're not likely to ever make a dwarf the new Arishok.

[Veruin]

So, basically, you should just use Kossith if you want to annoy people? I'm game.

[Ieldra]

CybAnt1 wrote...

You know, I really like all this confusion.

I think it makes for a great in-world game element. No problem there.

Just don't get why we need to replicate the confusion/conflation here on forums for discussion.

I also don't understand the Bioware writers' insistence that a certain term isn't used even in out-of-world debate. It doesn't work anyway, as several threads show, and given how it's all explained in World Of Thedas in the very first paragraph of the chapter about the qunari, this becomes even more engimatic. It is as if they're tweaking their worldbuilding just to make a term obsolete whose use they would like to prevent but can't.

The in-world confusion I do appreciate, but the Bioware writers' behaviour in this is decidedly odd. It would perhaps be understandable if I could see a reason for it. We fans are, in a way, scholars of Thedas who would make the distinction between religion and ethnicity after all.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 04 février 2014 - 04:14 .

[Vulpe]

This confusion is not very productive when it comes to forum discussions.Why don't we all agree on a nickname for the race that is completly unrelated to the game lore? That would stop all the confusion regarding them. I'll call the grey giants Oompa-Loompas from now on 

Modifié par JulianWellpit, 04 février 2014 - 04:30 .

[Beerfish]

I have no problem with this issue at all. I call them all 'horned devils'

[leaguer of one]

*Walk in.....
*Bashes head in wall.
*Walks out.

[David Gaider]

Ieldra2 wrote...
I also don't understand the Bioware writers' insistence that a certain term isn't used even in out-of-world debate.

We have never insisted on that. I have, in fact, said that people should feel free to use whatever term they want. This image that some people keep propogating that I or the other writers are filled with rage every time we so much as see the word is, as far as I can tell, just an attempt to paint us as petulant.

My only issue, as I've said many times, is some fans invoking "kossith" and expecting everyone to automatically understand a term that's mentioned in a couple of codex entries. It's become like some kind of litmus test for the super-hardcore-- "are you good enough to know what 'kossith' means?" --and some fans treat it like that, correcting others on its usage.

We've clarified what is proper in terms of the game lore--many times--and what we'll use in the actual game...which is that, when we use the word "Qunari", we mean the race of big guys with the horns who follow the Qun. If we mean anything else, we'll specify, though chances are we'll only need to when the Qunari themselves are involved, because they're the only ones who know or care about the difference.

What you guys do with that info is your business. The people who use "kossith" as a racial term are going to have to contend with those who anally point out that it's not, in fact, the right word...just as the people who use "qunari" are going to have to contend with the people who deliberately misinterpret despite the presence of context.

So, yeah. Good luck with that.

[Iakus]

This is why I'm sticking with upper case "Q" for followers of the Qun, lower case "q" for race-of-metallic-skinned-giants-who-might-or-might-not-have-horns.

[Wissenschaft]

What is this "context" you speak of, Mr. Gaider. Sounds like witchcraft to me.

[Wulfram]

I don't appreciate the confusion, even in-universe. Language exists to communicate, such confusion doesn't exist without reason, or at least it doesn't persist. If there's a hole, people grab a word and fill it.

People will bring up Judaism as a real world counterpart, but the difference is that in Jewish tradition religion and ethnicity are entwined. And people want to still be culturally Jewish even when they're not religiously Jewish. The linguistic confusion exists because it reflects a confused reality, it serves a purpose.

Whereas:
The Qunari would want to distinguish race from religion because they want converts. Getting people to become Qunari would presumably be more difficult if they thought they needed to grow horns to qualify
The Chantry would want to distinguish race from religion because they want converts the other way.
People who have converted to the Qun would want to make the distinction because they wouldn't want to be seen as "not Qunari".
People who have converted from the Qun would want to make the distinction because I can't see anyone leaving on friendly terms, and because it might reduce the chances of getting lynched by your new neighbours.
Scholars would want to make the distinction because accuracy is good, and so's avoiding contorted sentence structures to avoid needless confusion.

And your average uneducated peasants and such? Well, OK, they'd probably be unaware of the distinction, outside of Rivain anyway. So they'd call them ox-men.

Modifié par Wulfram, 04 février 2014 - 06:03 .

[Solas]

Naesaki wrote...

Somewhere deep within the confines of Bioware they wish they never created the "Kossith" term xD

wahahaha

Modifié par Carbon-based, 04 février 2014 - 06:01 .

[Nefla]

CybAnt1 wrote...

There are many people who want to RP outside of the actual game and do it here on the forums, I'm not one, I prefer to discuss things in English, not qunlat; I also don't discuss Klingon culture utilizing Klingon on Star Trek forums, either. Well, unless there is a Klington term which is untranslateable. 

Good thing Kossith is an English word, and that everybody knows and uses it regularly.

[Maclimes]

I strongly suspect that some Codex entries in DA:I will have a new word (like, Vollenti) that has been used for some other overlapping element of the Qunari/Kossith race/culture, just to cause more confusion among fans.

[CybAnt1]

Good thing Kossith is an English word, and that everybody knows and uses it regularly.

It's why I think "ox-men," "horny-folk," and (small-q) "qunari" work just as well -- well, now, wait, that last one is not an English word. So I'll stick to the first two. 

Wait, I've got another "the big ass guys with horns who look like the Arishok, turn into Ogres,  but don't follow the Qun" 

Anyway, I hate word taboos. Of all kinds. It's why I hate that this forum takes when I say "****" (f-bomb) and turns it into ****.

[CybAnt1]

iakus wrote...

This is why I'm sticking with upper case "Q" for followers of the Qun, lower case "q" for race-of-metallic-skinned-giants-who-might-or-might-not-have-horns.

I like it, I often use it, just wish there was a way to make your convention universally known. 

I think some people type small-q qunari when they mean Big-Q Qunari.

For example, there could not be such things as "elf qunari" but there could be "elf Qunari". (See what I did there?)

[CybAnt1]

iakus wrote...

This is why I'm sticking with upper case "Q" for followers of the Qun, lower case "q" for race-of-metallic-skinned-giants-who-might-or-might-not-have-horns.

Only Sten had no horns. Just use the same explanation they used for the changes to Klingons from the original Trek to New Generation -- some kind of genetic anomaly. 

[Naesaki]

Wasn't it mentioned Sten is a "term" but born without horns?