167 réponses à ce sujet

[happy_daiz]

CybAnt1 wrote...

iakus wrote...

This is why I'm sticking with upper case "Q" for followers of the Qun, lower case "q" for race-of-metallic-skinned-giants-who-might-or-might-not-have-horns.

Only Sten had no horns. Just use the same explanation they used for the changes to Klingons from the original Trek to New Generation -- some kind of genetic anomaly. 

Maybe not just Sten, according to wikia.

Hornlessness

Hornlessness is a rare genetic variation in Qunari, akin to red hair in humans. Those born without horns are considered special and are often given prestigious roles in Qunari society such as a Ben-Hassrath or an envoy to the other races.[6] Sten, who became a companion of the Warden as a soldier of the Beresaad, falls into this category. Culturally, Qunari associate not having horns with being imposing or scary, and because of this Tal-Vashoth often decide to remove their own horns.[7] Likewise, Saarebas, the Qunari mages, have their horns removed to warn of their danger.[8]

Modifié par happy_daiz, 04 février 2014 - 10:00 .

[LordJared88]

The word Qunari is much like the word Jew.  Jew is both a race and a religion.  It is possible to be a Jew by race, but not by religion.  It is also possible to be a Jew by religion, but not by race.  It works the same way with Qunari.  Thus I conclude that it is perfectly acceptable to say 'the Qunari race' just as well as 'the Qunari people' and have it mean two different things.

Modifié par LordJared88, 04 février 2014 - 10:13 .

[CybAnt1]

LordJared88 wrote...

The word Qunari is much like the word Jew.  Jew is both a race and a religion.  It is possible to be a Jew by race, but not by religion.  It is also possible to be a Jew by religion, but not by race.  It works the same way with Qunari.  Thus I conclude that it is perfectly acceptable to say 'the Qunari race' just as well as 'the Qunari people' and have it mean two different things.

Jews are not a race (in the sense the real world normally means it, a human subrace - like "Asians" or "Negroes"). They are an ethnic group. It is true some people had some weird ideas in the mid-20th century about there being an "Aryan race" vs. a "Semitic/Jewish race" but they were both wrong and nasty. 

Also, BTW, when we use race in the real-world human context, it means something different from "race" in the DA/Thedas context, where it could actually mean things that are nonhuman. (What would appear to be different species - although, they can in at least two cases interbreed, and we don't know about the third.) 

[CybAnt1]

Maybe not just Sten, according to wikia.

If you poke into the history of how this happened, it is a design decision - or I should say problem - that had to be covered and retconned by a lore decision. 

Most creatures in the animal world use their horns to be fierce and threatening, I consider it just one of DA's typical inversions to make qunari fierce and threatening by removing theirs. 

[Dean_the_Young]

I've never understood other people not understanding how a word can be used as two different sorts of identifiers. Pretty much every national identifier has also been used as an ethnic identifier as well, even when there are significant minority groups that don't match the ethnic implication. Chinese, Germans, Mexicans, Brits, and so on.

Americans are the most predominant real-world example. They are Americans, whether they're black, white, asian, or hispanic. The vast majority of the time and context, that's sufficient. When a smaller subgroup needs to be identified, hyphenated identification is rampant: in fact, they even dropped the hyphens. African American, Asian American, and so on. But, given the dominant majority ethnic group is white, there's no common white-American identifier: it's just 'American' by assumption unless distinction is needed.

I mean, who in America todays identifies as kossith, I mean Anglo?

[CybAnt1]

USAians seem to forget that the rest of the Americas, South America and Central America, plus the rest of North America, is still all America, and so "Americans" could come from somewhere else than the USA.

[Ieldra]

David Gaider wrote...
We've clarified what is proper in terms of the game lore--many times--and what we'll use in the actual game...which is that, when we use the word "Qunari", we mean the race of big guys with the horns who follow the Qun. If we mean anything else, we'll specify, though chances are we'll only need to when the Qunari themselves are involved, because they're the only ones who know or care about the difference.

What you guys do with that info is your business. The people who use "kossith" as a racial term are going to have to contend with those who anally point out that it's not, in fact, the right word...just as the people who use "qunari" are going to have to contend with the people who deliberately misinterpret despite the presence of context.

So, yeah. Good luck with that.

The reason why people keep using the "wrong" term is the fact that no other term exists for the race of horned people as such, with no regard for whether they follow the Qun or not. People want to talk about them, especially since we can now create player characters of that race, they think there needs to be a term, and out-of-world I agree, because it is awkward if people need to clarify every second time they use "qunari" if they're referring to the religion or the race. The context is not always clear.

@iakus:
That sounds like a very usable convention, and enough to keep things clear here on the forums. 

[SgtSteel91]

Just use "Ox-men"

[LordJared88]

CybAnt1 wrote...

LordJared88 wrote...

The word Qunari is much like the word Jew.  Jew is both a race and a religion.  It is possible to be a Jew by race, but not by religion.  It is also possible to be a Jew by religion, but not by race.  It works the same way with Qunari.  Thus I conclude that it is perfectly acceptable to say 'the Qunari race' just as well as 'the Qunari people' and have it mean two different things.

Jews are not a race (in the sense the real world normally means it, a human subrace - like "Asians" or "Negroes"). They are an ethnic group. It is true some people had some weird ideas in the mid-20th century about there being an "Aryan race" vs. a "Semitic/Jewish race" but they were both wrong and nasty. 

Also, BTW, when we use race in the real-world human context, it means something different from "race" in the DA/Thedas context, where it could actually mean things that are nonhuman. (What would appear to be different species - although, they can in at least two cases interbreed, and we don't know about the third.) 

What I meant by 'race' was not species, but... well, race.  Like where the word 'racist' comes from.  lol, it's not specie-ist.   Racism is treating people based on their race, i.e. jewish, African, Asian, etc.  Species would be something different than human all together, but yes, Jew is a race.   There is actually a jewish bloodline, much like an arab bloodline and they are distinguished by their own distinct physical traits, such as olive skin, brown eyes and interesting nose shapes.

Qunari is a species, I suppose, but the game menu will (and always has) asked you to choose your "race", rather than "species".

Modifié par LordJared88, 04 février 2014 - 10:35 .

[Dean_the_Young]

CybAnt1 wrote...

USAians seem to forget that the rest of the Americas, South America and Central America, plus the rest of North America, is still all America, and so "Americans" could come from somewhere else than the USA.

There's that to, but I've never found or heard of anyone outside the western hemisphere having the same issue. When someone in, say, China, or Russia, or Afghanistan, talks about America in casual talk, they're talking about the US of A. Or at least, I've never come across the broader generalization in the last decade or so.

Less of a USAianian thing and more of a 'everyone outside the hispanopshere (and Brazil).' Even the Canadians I've met use the American-centric 'Canada/America/Latin America' division as the broad default.

Not much common identifier for the western hemisphere as a whole. In fact, I'm not sure there's any common identifier outside of the Latin America that is used for the western hemisphere as a whole.

[Dean_the_Young]

Ieldra2 wrote...

David Gaider wrote...
We've clarified what is proper in terms of the game lore--many times--and what we'll use in the actual game...which is that, when we use the word "Qunari", we mean the race of big guys with the horns who follow the Qun. If we mean anything else, we'll specify, though chances are we'll only need to when the Qunari themselves are involved, because they're the only ones who know or care about the difference.

What you guys do with that info is your business. The people who use "kossith" as a racial term are going to have to contend with those who anally point out that it's not, in fact, the right word...just as the people who use "qunari" are going to have to contend with the people who deliberately misinterpret despite the presence of context.

So, yeah. Good luck with that.

The reason why people keep using the "wrong" term is the fact that no other term exists for the race of horned people as such, with no regard for whether they follow the Qun or not.

Qunari.

People want to talk about them, especially since we can now create player characters of that race, they think there needs to be a term, and out-of-world I agree, because it is awkward if people need to clarify every second time they use "qunari" if they're referring to the religion or the race. The context is not always clear.

So clarify the context when it the rare cases it is an issue. If you're referring to ox-men, use qunari. If you're referring to ox-men outside the Qun, use qunari (if race specific) or tal-vashoth or whatever (if relationship-specific). If you're referring to non-ox-men of the qunari culture and need to make a racial distinction, use (identifier)-quanri. If you're referring to non-ox-men outside of the qunari culture at all, you don't need to call them quanari at all or can call them (identifier)-tal-vashoth or whatever.

Where are you having an issue with this?

[CybAnt1]

What I meant by 'race' was not species, but... well, race.  Like where the word 'racist' comes from.  lol, it's not specie-ist.   Racism is treating people based on their race, i.e. jewish, African, Asian, etc. 

No, I repeat, Jews are not a race.

Sammy Davis Jr. (Black) was Jewish. So is Jackie Mason (white). Jews are, and can be, white, yellow, brown, and red. They are not, per se, a race. Anti-Semitism is technically ethnocentrism or a form of ethnic prejudice. 

Jews are Semites, but there is no Semitic race; there are only Semitic ethnic groups, who tend to use Semitic languages. 

There is actually a jewish bloodline, much like an arab bloodline and they are distinguished by their own distinct physical traits.

The Jewish law does say you have to have a Jewish mother, yes, but .... other than that, no they are not a race.

Ashke****m tend to look like white Europeans, Sephardim often like Arabs, and the Falashas are Black. There are even Asiatic Jews -- the Kaifeng Jews of China. 

Qunari is a species, I suppose, but the game menu will (and always has) asked you to choose your "race", rather than "species".

That's because the word "race" like the word Qunari has more than one meaning. In fantasy games, it tends to refer to beings that are nonhuman or humanoid. In the real world, it is used - often with inaccuracy, but that's a whole 'nother topic - to discuss the slight genetic differences that result in human subraces. 

[CybAnt1]

Where are you having an issue with this?

From my perception, I don't have much problem with people using the words they wish.

ox-men, small-q qunari, I'm mostly pushing "horny-folk" as a joke. 

My only issue is the taboo on the k-word, accompanied by an odd, but historically inaccurate claim, that no one ever uses archaisms. 

[Iakus]

CybAnt1 wrote...

iakus wrote...

This is why I'm sticking with upper case "Q" for followers of the Qun, lower case "q" for race-of-metallic-skinned-giants-who-might-or-might-not-have-horns.

Only Sten had no horns. Just use the same explanation they used for the changes to Klingons from the original Trek to New Generation -- some kind of genetic anomaly. 

It is a long story 

[Dean_the_Young]

CybAnt1 wrote...

Where are you having an issue with this?

From my perception, I don't have much problem with people using the words they wish.

ox-men, small-q qunari, I'm mostly pushing "horny-folk" as a joke. 

My only issue is the taboo on the k-word, accompanied by an odd, but historically inaccurate claim, that no one ever uses archaisms. 

I suppose I should have been more specific: where are people having an issue in understanding the usage of Quanari in context?

[CybAnt1]

Context is fine and works, when people provide it. That usually also requires them knowing why.

There's the ignorance of game-world people in Thedas, and, as hard as it is to believe, there are players/fans/BSNers who appear not to know that not all members of the race practice the religion/ethos, and not all members of the religion/ethos are of the qunari race. Thus, that, it is, in fact, a word that could have two meanings. 

Modifié par CybAnt1, 04 février 2014 - 11:06 .

[Dabrikishaw]

It's not confusion, just people having a problem when other don't conform to their wishes to not use the term Kossith.

[ShawDawg94]

Kossith: The Race
Qunari: Followers of the Qun
Tal-Vashoth: Kossith who are not followers of the Qun

Does it need to be any more complex than that?

[Dean_the_Young]

If people don't know that not all qunari are racially qunari, wouldn't the far more practical solution be to remind them of the more common lore (hey, you remember that DLC?) rather than a term never spoken in the games?

Not knowing the qunari have conquered Thedasians is a far more relevant lore gap, and I doubt anyone who doesn't know that would understand kossith either.

[Sylvius the Mad]

ShawDawg94 wrote...

Kossith: The Race
Qunari: Followers of the Qun
Tal-Vashoth: Kossith who are not followers of the Qun

Does it need to be any more complex than that?

It doesn't need to be.

But it is.

[CybAnt1]

and I doubt anyone who doesn't know that would understand kossith either.

It's just a google away, Dean.
http://dragonage.wik...om/wiki/Kossith

BTW also:
http://da2risingtide...om/wiki/Kossith

People seem to act like it is incredibly hard to find on the Internet. 

My hope is almost everybody on these forums can plug a word into google. 

Modifié par CybAnt1, 04 février 2014 - 11:27 .

[Dean_the_Young]

They could also google qunari, and learn the wonders of qunari society.

So what, again, is the importance of kossith?

[CybAnt1]

ShawDawg94 wrote...

Kossith: The Race
Qunari: Followers of the Qun
Tal-Vashoth: Kossith who are not followers of the Qun

Does it need to be any more complex than that?

Alas, it is... 

(from the Wiki)
The Tal-Vashoth[/b] are Qunari who abandon the Qun. It is not specific to race, and thus former Qunari dwarves, humans, and elves can become Tal-Vashoth.

[end]

Some people seem to think Tal-Vashoth are only ox-men/horny-folk. 

Those people are a thing I like to call "wrong". :innocent:

Tal-Vashoth are people who have left the Qun, OF ANY RACE. 

Oh wait ... excuse me, Vashoth if they leave peacefully, Tal-Vashoth if they leave, and use violence (is there anybody on Thedas who doesn't?) 

[CybAnt1]

So what, again, is the importance of kossith?

It's a racial term, without any religious implications. Perhaps the perfect term to use to refer to somebody of the race, without having to know whether they do, or do not, follow the ethos/belief system of the Qun. 

Wow, that didn't take many words at all. 

Modifié par CybAnt1, 04 février 2014 - 11:34 .

[Dean_the_Young]

That makes things even simpler, and Kossith even less important.

Qunari if you're talking about people of the race.
Qunari if you're talking about people of the culture.
Tal-Vashoth if you're talking about people who have left the culture.
Hyphenated-Qunari if you're talking about people not of the race but of the culture.
Hyphenated-Tal-vashoth if you're specifying about the people not of the race who have left the culture.

And if someone doesn't know the lore of qunari society, such as that no one goes around calling ox-men kossith and that the proper term for ox-men is qunari, you kindly enlighten them and they learn something about a franchise.

:-)

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 04 février 2014 - 11:39 .