167 réponses à ce sujet

[EmperorSahlertz]

CybAnt1 wrote...

Yes. They are bieng used mainly for two reasons: For historical record/debate or to conjure up some notion of historical association.

And who are the people using the word on Thedas who we will never meet but are still there, nonetheless? Oh yeah, the rare (but existent) historical scholars like Brother Genitivi. 

The writers has already said that it was a mistake on their part to include that erronous "codex: entry".

CybAnt1 wrote...

Which of these are you hoping to achieve in your incessant use of 'Kossith'?

What I am trying to achieve is to get the anti-k-word faction to dial it down. As I think I've said, like, oh, 20 times, is I'm ok with other terms that do the same things. Horny-folk! 

Once people start using the term correctly, then things can be "dialed down".

CybAnt1 wrote...

Saying Kossith and refering to the Qunari are as inacurate as refering to the Iranians as Persians 

Last I checked, they speak the Farsi language TODAY, otherwise known as ... oh yeah, PERSIAN. 

Many Algerians also speaks French, obviously they are still part of France... Most Americans speak English... Surely they are part of the United Kingdom.... No?
Why is it that you think that linguistic legacy somehow means that two differnet people are one and the same? 

CybAnt1 wrote...

Sure.. If you wish to discuss actual Kossith culture, then you can use the term. 

While historical studies of what culture they had before the Qun could be interesting, I'm actually continually suggesting that a racial identifier (solely) for in-forum use is useful, and I still don't get why people claim kossith is not a racial term, just because developers have changed their minds.  :innocent:

The developers never intended the Kossith name to be  aname for the Qunari race. People were asking for what the Qunari called themselves before the Qun, and the developers answered.

[Nefla]

This argument has gotten so pointless and off-base. Arguing over ancient European history? Really? People who insist on using Kossith don't seem to know what they want, but damn you all to hell if you try to take away their super special secret word! Is Kossith less confusing? Maybe to a person who looks up every scrap in the codex or every offhand remark in TWOT, spends all their days on the BSN, and is in love with the term. To anyone who has played the games, it adds much MORE confusion. Even terms like "ox-man" or "horned giants" make absolutely no sense to the many people who played Origins and Awakening but skipped DA2 due to its' BUTTON AWESOME!!!11!!1 direction. Saying that a word for an ancient culture is still sometimes used in modern day does not negate the fact that 1)The archaic term is much more obscure and confusing (just like in DA, imagine that...) and 2)Almost nobody in the entire world of Thedas knows your super secret awesome specialsauce word, no one will ever use it in game and why the heck would we want two alternate vocabularies for the game and the BSN? It adds more confusion.

Modifié par Nefla, 05 février 2014 - 06:06 .

[CybAnt1]

The writers has already said that it was a mistake on their part to include that erronous "codex: entry".

Too late. I'm thinking of another story, about horses and barn doors. 

Once people start using the term correctly, 

According to you and those who agree with you, you mean. 

The developers never intended the Kossith name to be  aname for the Qunari race. 

Like I said, I'm sure the cattle prods are headed for the WoT authors' office, any day now. 

[KiwiQuiche]

Hopefully when we play as one of "the big grey-skinned horn people" that is not of the Qun we get all the "omg ur a qunari" even though we aren't, they're just racially profiling us, we get to respond as with "you humans are all racist!"

Modifié par KiwiQuiche, 05 février 2014 - 06:11 .

[CybAnt1]

This argument has gotten so pointless and off-base.

I think I said that, but the mages, errr, anti-kossith faction wouldn't let go. 

:innocent:

[EmperorSahlertz]

CybAnt1 wrote...

Once people start using the term correctly, 

According to you and those who agree with you, you mean. 

More like broadly accepted usage of language and terms..... So yeah....

CybAnt1 wrote...

The writers has already said that it was a mistake on their part to include that erronous "codex: entry".

Too late. I'm thinking of another story, about horses and barn doors. 

The developers never intended the Kossith name to be  aname for the Qunari race. 

Like I said, I'm sure the cattle prods are headed for the WoT authors' office, any day now. 

Cute... So whenever the writers admit a mistake, you chose to keep thinking that the mistake is actually lore.....

So according to you, Templars can also still learn and use their abilities without taking Lyrium, because that is what Alistair says in DA:O, even though it has since then EXPLICITLY been stated that they need to take Lyrium to be able to use them?

[Nefla]

CybAnt1 wrote...

This argument has gotten so pointless and off-base.

I think I said that, but the mages, errr, anti-kossith faction wouldn't let go. 

:innocent:

It takes two to tango bud. You seem obsessed with arguing over it, especially since you supposedly don't care about the issue.

[CybAnt1]

So according to you, Templars can also still learn and use their abilities without taking Lyrium, because that is what Alistair says in DA:O, even though it has since then EXPLICITLY been stated that they need to take Lyrium to be able to use them?

If they don't want lore becoming canonical, they ought to keep it out of a lore book called "World of Thedas". 
Released in 2013.

Just saying. 

[CybAnt1]

It takes two to tango bud. You seem obsessed with arguing over it, especially since you supposedly don't care about the issue.

Oh no. I offered the olive branch, the Diplomatic option. Read up the thread. 

It was swatted down.

When that happens, I choose the Sarcastic. Call it karma. 

[EmperorSahlertz]

CybAnt1 wrote...

So according to you, Templars can also still learn and use their abilities without taking Lyrium, because that is what Alistair says in DA:O, even though it has since then EXPLICITLY been stated that they need to take Lyrium to be able to use them?

If they don't want lore becoming canonical, they ought to keep it out of a lore book called "World of Thedas". 
Released in 2013.

Just saying. 

Mistakes happen. When the writers admit to this mistake, and straight up call it erronous, then it is safe to say that the ONE thing you so desperately cling to, isn't valid lore at all.

[Nefla]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

CybAnt1 wrote...

So according to you, Templars can also still learn and use their abilities without taking Lyrium, because that is what Alistair says in DA:O, even though it has since then EXPLICITLY been stated that they need to take Lyrium to be able to use them?

If they don't want lore becoming canonical, they ought to keep it out of a lore book called "World of Thedas". 
Released in 2013.

Just saying. 

Mistakes happen. When the writers admit to this mistake, and straight up call it erronous, then it is safe to say that the ONE thing you so desperately cling to, isn't valid lore at all.

He just likes to argue. He really REALLY likes to argue.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Nefla wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

CybAnt1 wrote...

So according to you, Templars can also still learn and use their abilities without taking Lyrium, because that is what Alistair says in DA:O, even though it has since then EXPLICITLY been stated that they need to take Lyrium to be able to use them?

If they don't want lore becoming canonical, they ought to keep it out of a lore book called "World of Thedas". 
Released in 2013.

Just saying. 

Mistakes happen. When the writers admit to this mistake, and straight up call it erronous, then it is safe to say that the ONE thing you so desperately cling to, isn't valid lore at all.

He just likes to argue. He really REALLY likes to argue.

I thought he just enjoyed being wrong....

[Commander Kurt]

CybAnt1 wrote...

Time will tell if the Kossith mutation will survive, us arguing about it means null and nothing.

Someone who understands how language actually works - even artificial languages invented for games. 

This is why, of course, I know this is one argument that will never be won or lost. 

Tsk, that's loser talk. I always win all of my internet arguments.

[Dutchess]

Nefla wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Mistakes happen. When the writers admit to this mistake, and straight up call it erronous, then it is safe to say that the ONE thing you so desperately cling to, isn't valid lore at all.

He just likes to argue. He really REALLY likes to argue.

And where exactly did the writers say that including the word Kossith at all was wrong? Because I have never seen that anywhere.

I know of this post: http://blog.bioware....me-1-an-errata/

It corrects several errors in the book, but not word on Kossith.

[TurretSyndrome]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

In a multiracial society where ethnicity isn't a deciding factor, treating it like it is would be misleading. Saying a settlement is Kosith in nature implies certain characteristics and relationships. Is a settlement 80% converts and 20% Qunari count? How does mixing affect it? What if the population rotates? 

If there's a settlement of converts, and a military garrison of ox-men moves in, what does it count as? And if a mixed Qunari settlement sees the ox-men population recede, what does that amount to?

You're wrong. It is a deciding factor, atleast for the Qun it is. "You're either a Qunari, or you're not" - Sten

The Qunari. This entire group(not race) only defines itself with it's ethinicity and nothing else, and will not allow anyone else to do so unless they belong to that group as well. This is what I've been trying to say about the word Qunari not being accepted in-game either. Gaider may say it is what the humans and others outside the Qun address the race with, but that is because of many of them aren't educated enough to know the difference. Regardless, the fact that the Qunari never gave any other meaning to this word, and never will, remains. To them, Qunari means followers of the Qun, no more no less, and that remains the same for me. 

Bring in as many in-universe characters as you want and get them to use the word for the race, it will not matter. A multitude of ignorant people using something incorrect does not make it correct. 

"A settlement of Kossiths" implies only the simplest and obvious meaning. Which is; that it is a settlement of that race. Who cares how many are exactly there in that settlement? Who cares whether they have people of other races living among them? Who cares who they are?(Qunari/Tal-Vashoth) As long as it answers thye question "Is this a settlement of Kossiths?" with a yes or a no without having to delve deeper into the variations of the groups, it is sufficient.

You can then expand on whether it is a Qunari settlement or a Tal-Vashoth one, or one of Kossiths who would like nothing to do with either groups(people like Maraas), if you wish. You break into to the sub-catogorial terms(Qunari/Tal-Vashoth/Other) only after you touched the more encompassing general one(Kossith). You only get into it, after passing the primary barrier and are requested to expand on it.

But didn't need to, since the thread communicates the nuance of what's being asked?

Forget the thread, forget the OP's description, that is not what it is about. It is about which word quickly and clearly answers one's query of the race in general in the simplest manner without having to go deeper into the subject. Kossith does the job well without implying anything else, which is why I use it. 

Mikoto8472 wrote...

In any case, I just sigh and give up. I know what  Kossith actually means but..... meh. My friends and I need some word to describe the oxmen species and Kossith is as good as any so we agreed to use that.

If we want to refer to a Qunari that isn't Kossith, we specify Elf Qunari or Human Qunari. The system works, we understand each other and that works for us.

Exactly, can't put it any simpler than this. We chose Kossith because Kossith works. Basically creating a quick shortcut to the race itself. The word Qunari cannot be used in general terms like that, without exapnding on which group we refer to, and I'm getting tired of explaining this to people. I also don't know why so many people have a problem with this, most of them persist with this "because Gaider says so" attitude.

Modifié par TurretSyndrome, 05 février 2014 - 06:53 .

[Commander Kurt]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

As an insufferably smug product of successful cultural assimilation, I'd argue you can convert to a culture. It's hard, but possible- culture is commonlyt shared viewpoints, beliefs, and ideas, and you can come to adopt all three. (Adopting religion and nationality helps.)

It's harder if a culture has exlusionary princples based on things you don't want to or can't change. Europe has some assimilation issues because the ethnic-state is still alive and well: it's just now getting to the point where a common European identity is being created, but that identity (white and christian or agnostic) doesn't mesh well with the guest workers who are too brown and islamic for comfort.

On the other hand, when you have a society with fewer barriers of the sort, you can assimilate yourself more. In Europe, Britain is the best example: partly a heyday of its colonialism, partly a reflection of its role as a financial center in the globally connected world, and partly a reflection of its history as a multi-identity state at different levels (English, Scottish, Welsh, Irish), and Britain has a lot of success in assimilating foreigners and converting them into funny-colored Brits.

I think Jimmy's point was that you can't just decide one day to be part of the German culture and start calling yourself German. Well, you can, but it might cause some confusion.

I agree with you on all points (I really wish I didn't because that's a really interesting discussion as well), but I felt that it would be more correct to compare race with culture and religion with nationality in this particular case.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Again... I really don't think this applied. Mainly because you are talking about culture and nationality versus religion. If you are born in India, you are Indian. If you were raised under the common Indian ethos, you'd be Hindu. 

I, as an American born, can't convert to being Indian. I am not the right ethnicity, nor do I have the cultural background. Yet I CAN convert to Hinduism quite easily if I so choose. To say that makes me Indian would be very confusing. 

One cannot convert to a race, nationality or culture. One can EASILY convert to a religion. To conflate the two into one word just wouldn't happen in real life. Because it would get way too confusing way too quickly. People would invent their own words and terms to differentiate the two statuses. That's ALMOST what fans have done with taking the Kossith word and molding it to their uses. That this wasn't how a Thedosian would do it or what the writers intended is a little irrelevant - it fucntions to cross a communication gap that was identified within mere years of the idea being spread amongst the general populace. To assume a fictional world wouldn't do the same thing over centuries of possible confusion really ignores some very basic tenets of human psychology and the evolution of language.

People may constantly use INACCURATE terms, but they hardly ever stick with using confusing ones.

We happily use words that could refer to either ethnicity or citizenship or country or origin (three completely different things), and we don't constantly complain about how imprecise it all is.

It's the same here.  The word Qunari is imprecise.  But if that bothers us, then so should "Swedish".

Unless it's not the imprecision that bothers you, but the imprecision specifically as it applies to religion, but if that's the case I'm going to need an explanation for why religious imprecision is so much worse than the others.

And you probably just offended a bunch of Indian Muslims and Sikhs and Buddhists.

[BioWareMod02]

This is has way too much real life politics.
My wrath is upon this thread. Lockity lockity lock.