1765 réponses à ce sujet

[CronoDragoon]

ImaginaryMatter wrote...
Something, anything.

But what can he do? We, the player, know that Shepard knows virtually jack about the Reapers that could help the galaxy prepare. He just knows they are coming.

Besides that, the Council is ostriching and the Alliance needs to deal with the threat of war with the batarians, and the easiest method to placate them is a token gesture, namely putting Shepard in planet arrest while they work out a trial.

I think players may be mishandling their frustration here. You are SUPPOSED to feel frustrated about what is happening to Shepard. That frustration should be aimed at the galaxy, yet it's directed towards BioWare instead. Did you also get frustrated at BioWare when Shepard was caged at the end of ME1, unable to stop Saren?

AlanC9 wrote...

It's somewhat difficult to find historical examples of known inevitable defeat. Even when material factors make it inevitable, there's usually some reason to hope for some sort of political change. 

I'm not sure we need an analogy at all. The notion of imminent defeat should be easy for anyone to conceptualize.

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 07 février 2014 - 03:39 .

[Fixers0]

CronoDragoon wrote...
I think players may be mishandling their frustration here. You are SUPPOSED to feel frustrated about what is happening to Shepard. That frustration should be aimed at the galaxy, yet it's directed towards BioWare instead. 

I guess that says something about this narrative's quality.

[CronoDragoon]

Fixers0 wrote...

I guess that says something about this narrative's quality.

Or the immaturity of the fanbase, but probably a mix of both.

[Derpy]

Really everything after the Tuchunka and Rannoch arc was crap. The Cerberus coup was crap too.

[fr33stylez]

Considering Shepard witnessed that the Reapers were minutes away from invading the galaxy in Arrival, why would he agree to fly to earth and remain in lockdown for 6 months while the Reapers fly to the next Relay?

Like what was the point (from a storytelling perspective) of Arrival?

[CronoDragoon]

fr33stylez wrote...

Considering Shepard witnessed that the Reapers were minutes away from invading the galaxy in Arrival, why would he agree to fly to earth and remain in lockdown for 6 months while the Reapers fly to the next Relay?

Because Shepard can't actually do anything to help the galaxy prepare except make political friends to convince them this is real, something which he is not going to do becoming a fugitive with both the Alliance and batarians chasing him, effectively discrediting any claim he might have forever?

Like what was the point (from a storytelling perspective) of Arrival?

To establish - more or less - that the Reapers were here-ish and ready for ME3's intro.

Edit: I thought Arrival sucked btw, so I'm in no way trying to be an Arrival apologist.

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 07 février 2014 - 04:17 .

[fr33stylez]

CronoDragoon wrote...

Because Shepard can't actually do anything to help the galaxy prepare except make political friends to convince them this is real, something which he is not going to do becoming a fugitive with both the Alliance and batarians chasing him, effectively discrediting any claim he might have forever?

I think there's a lot he could've tried doing which would've made a lot more sense. I mean, you spend the entire story of ME3 running around recruiting other races to build the Cruicible because you were unprepared for the invasion anyways, even after those 6 months in captivity. Now I don't remember (please tell me if you know) how the Batarians even knew Shepard was behind the events of Arrival. I thought everyone involved died.

Regardless of this point, what were the batarians going to do anyways? We see that if we don't play Arrival, some Alliance team went in and did the same thing - it's not as if the  batarians attacked the Alliance, which they definately should've done since they didn't have a scape goat. That whole explanation around Arrival-ME3 Intro didn't make a lick of sense to me.

To establish - more or less - that the Reapers were here-ish and ready for ME3's intro.

Edit: I thought Arrival sucked btw, so I'm in no way trying to be an Arrival apologist.

I know what you're saying, but I'm not sure why showing the Reapers are on our doorstep, then blowing away a relay to delay them is any different what is shown @ the end of ME2 (i.e the Reapers are approaching the galaxy). Seemed like a completely pointless endeavour.

Modifié par fr33stylez, 07 février 2014 - 05:01 .

[George Costanza]

AlanC9 wrote...

George Costanza wrote...

Off course! We know that the plans have been found previously as there's no other way Cerberus could be there (although, as evidenced by ME3, they do turn up pretty much everywhere regardless of common sense) but narratively the plans enter the story immediately after the invasion.

Sure, but the timing is just an artifact of the POV being highly Shep-centric. Something I wish Bio would do more of... but since they've been giving us spoilers from the villain's POV since BG2, I suppose I'm doomed to disappointment on this front.

AlanC9 wrote...
It's not a great metaphor, but then it isn't a metaphor at all. That's beside the point though. The point was that Hitler was invading countries left, right and centre, as were the Reapers, and when the Brits were heading into a full scale World War, pooling a tonne of resources into building a weapon without knowing some of the parts, or the origin, or what it actually did, is a stretch. A big one.

Analogy, right. But you ducked the substantive point. Churchill wasn't inevitably doomed, and Hitler was.

And you ignored practically everything I said to quibble about an analogy. It's not a perfect analogy, no. It's merely there to highlight the absurdity of pooling an enormous amount of resources into building a weapon you know next to nothing about, or even how to finish, when you're in the middle of a massive war.

[George Costanza]

AlexMBrennan wrote...

It's not a great metaphor, but then it isn't a metaphor at all. That's beside the point though. The point was that Hitler was invading countries left, right and centre, as were the Reapers, and when the Brits were heading into a full scale World War, pooling a tonne of resources into building a weapon without knowing some of the parts, or the origin, or what it actually did, is a stretch. A big one.

The difference is that the Alliance knows fully well that it is completely impossible to defeat the Reapers without some kind of super weapon whereas the Germans weren't nearly as advanced (for that analogy to work the Germans would have had to show up with ATLAS battle mechs)... So the choice is simply between certain defeat, and a million-to-one chance of not losing.

I don't want to get drawn into one of these "It's impossible to defeat the Reapers conventionally!" arguments, because I've seen them play out on here before and they're ugly, but I don't think it's fair to say the Alliance knew it was impossible. Or rather, I mean I've always felt that Hackett mentioning how it's impossible to beat them was thrown in there purely to attempt to justify the Crucible as a viable option, which is another thing that annoys me about it.

I'm not saying the galaxy could have defeated the Reapers without the aid of a magical space weapon, but the whole "Yeah, this is impossible. Let's build this device we know nothing about" angle always felt entirely cringe worthy to me.

The galaxy was actually in a much stronger position to defeat the Reapers than any other cycle thanks to the Prothean sabotage. I wish they'd explored that a little bit. Perhaps they could have shown one of the races we know and care about wiped out or something. Just something to demonstrate that, yes, holy ****, we can't beat these guys. Time for a Hail Mary. Instead we just get this corny throwaway line and suddenly following ancient plans discovered on Mars for a weapon that isn't even finished becomes the best option.

It's just really sketchy.

[CronoDragoon]

fr33stylez wrote...
I think there's a lot he could've tried doing which would've made a lot more sense. I mean, you spend the entire story of ME3 running around recruiting other races to build the Cruicible because you were unprepared for the invasion anyways, even after those 6 months in captivity.

A lot like what? Recruit people to build the Crucible for which the plans haven't even been discovered? The only thing I can think of is searching uncharted planets for more Prothean beacons.

Now I don't remember (please tell me if you know) how the Batarians even knew Shepard was behind the events of Arrival. I thought everyone involved died.

It suffices that Hackett believes they know, for story purposes. But Paragon Shep at least sends a transmission warning the colony.

Regardless of this point, what were the batarians going to do anyways? We see that if we don't play Arrival, some Alliance team went in and did the same thing - it's not as if the  batarians attacked the Alliance, which they definately should've done since they didn't have a scape goat. That whole explanation around Arrival-ME3 Intro didn't make a lick of sense to me.

What happened to the Alliance team? Do we know the Alliance didn't use the team as a scapegoat? Shepard is an Alliance operative as well.

know what you're saying, but I'm not sure why showing the Reapers are on our doorstep, then blowing away a relay to delay them is any different what is shown @ the end of ME2 (i.e the Reapers are approaching the galaxy). Seemed like a completely pointless endeavour.

My guess is to charge $10 for a crappy slapped-together DLC.

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 07 février 2014 - 05:58 .

[Iakus]

fr33stylez wrote...

Considering Shepard witnessed that the Reapers were minutes away from invading the galaxy in Arrival, why would he agree to fly to earth and remain in lockdown for 6 months while the Reapers fly to the next Relay?

Like what was the point (from a storytelling perspective) of Arrival?

To set things up for the trial that never took place.

[AlexMBrennan]

Considering Shepard witnessed that the Reapers were minutes away from invading the galaxy in Arrival, why would he agree to fly to earth and remain in lockdown for 6 months while the Reapers fly to the next Relay?

Because Shepard, unlike the BSN dwelling wannabe rambos, realised that there is no way he could possibly do anything to stop an invading armada on with his dozen random henchmen? You need resources (shipyards, weapons, crew for hundreds of warships, scientists) so unless you want Shepard to magically pull all of these things from his read (like Cerberus did) there's nothing Shepard can do without the support of the Alliance or Council.

Hypothetical question: Shepard evades capture and is now on the run from the Alliance, and the baterians who are now out for his blood will probably have put out a substantial bounty on Shepard's head. How is Shepard - one single infantryman - going to stop an armada of superdreadnoughts (ships impervious to conventional dreadnought fire capable of taking out conventional dreadnoughts with a single hit). What would you have Shepard do?

[wright1978]

CronoDragoon wrote...

fr33stylez wrote...

Considering Shepard witnessed that the Reapers were minutes away from invading the galaxy in Arrival, why would he agree to fly to earth and remain in lockdown for 6 months while the Reapers fly to the next Relay?

Because Shepard can't actually do anything to help the galaxy prepare except make political friends to convince them this is real, something which he is not going to do becoming a fugitive with both the Alliance and batarians chasing him, effectively discrediting any claim he might have forever?

In retrospect it would have been more fruitful  to have doen just about snything else even sitting back and partying rather than going to meet the Alliance. At least Garrus actually got something done by going home.

[CronoDragoon]

wright1978 wrote...

In retrospect it would have been more fruitful  to have doen just about snything else even sitting back and partying rather than going to meet the Alliance. At least Garrus actually got something done by going home.

Garrus didn't do anything either. His task force was useless because by his own words he doesn't know anything useful about the Reapers that would give them something to do. He accomplished exactly as much as Shepard did. I believe the paradigm for useful time spent would be Liara here, in which case the steps she took are not ones Shepard would be able to duplicate. So it comes down to turning himself in to prevent a batarian-Alliance war outbreak just as the Reapers are arriving, versus blindly flying around scanning uncharted planets hoping for a Prothean beacon that will help.

[ImaginaryMatter]

CronoDragoon wrote...

ImaginaryMatter wrote...
Something, anything.

But what can he do? We, the player, know that Shepard knows virtually jack about the Reapers that could help the galaxy prepare. He just knows they are coming.

Besides that, the Council is ostriching and the Alliance needs to deal with the threat of war with the batarians, and the easiest method to placate them is a token gesture, namely putting Shepard in planet arrest while they work out a trial.

I think players may be mishandling their frustration here. You are SUPPOSED to feel frustrated about what is happening to Shepard. That frustration should be aimed at the galaxy, yet it's directed towards BioWare instead. Did you also get frustrated at BioWare when Shepard was caged at the end of ME1, unable to stop Saren?

Well I always keep the Collector base, you think Shepard would say something about the trove of technology and information waiting past the Omega relay, there's probably a good deal of information about the Reapers over there. You think at the very least Shepard would say that the Reapers are in fact coming, yet the defense commitee seems completely surprised about the appearance of Reapers. Theoretically Shepard still has his Spectre status so he could technically leave at any time.

I always found putting Shepard under house arrest to placate Batarians a poor handwave. You think they would settle for nothing less than blood and interpreted the Alliance simply stalling, what would the Alliance PR guy say? "Hey, I know you Batarians are upset but we've got one of the guys who did this in a comfy apartment with warm food and soft beds." The Batarians aren't exactly known for being mild natured and having great trust in humans. And the only reason why Shepard is apparently in the (now stationed at Earth) Alliance defense commitee is because he knows something about Reapers, which no one believes in anyway.

I'm just saying the opening doesn't make any sense, it bascically exists to handwave a reason for Shepard for being on Earth to make a 'we fight or we die' speech. The scene doesn't have any internal consistency and that's what's frustrating.

[SkullStrife]

The ending...

[wright1978]

CronoDragoon wrote...

wright1978 wrote...

In retrospect it would have been more fruitful  to have doen just about snything else even sitting back and partying rather than going to meet the Alliance. At least Garrus actually got something done by going home.

Garrus didn't do anything either. His task force was useless because by his own words he doesn't know anything useful about the Reapers that would give them something to do. He accomplished exactly as much as Shepard did. I believe the paradigm for useful time spent would be Liara here, in which case the steps she took are not ones Shepard would be able to duplicate. So it comes down to turning himself in to prevent a batarian-Alliance war outbreak just as the Reapers are arriving, versus blindly flying around scanning uncharted planets hoping for a Prothean beacon that will help.

His task force did something, maybe not the huge thing that would have happened if the Turian Primarch had of actually believed but he took the token force and deployed it to its maximum. Shep accomplished nothing other than eating hot food and sleeping in soft beds.

I don't particularly mind that Shep makes the bad choice to believe he can actually get the alliance to do something. I'm just annoyed i'm never given the option to express my annoyance at it.

[CronoDragoon]

ImaginaryMatter wrote...
Well I always keep the Collector base, you think Shepard would say something about the trove of technology and information waiting past the Omega relay, there's probably a good deal of information about the Reapers over there. You think at the very least Shepard would say that the Reapers are in fact coming, yet the defense commitee seems completely surprised about the appearance of Reapers. Theoretically Shepard still has his Spectre status so he could technically leave at any time.

Good point about the Base, but if you keep the base then Shepard is still technically working with Cerberus. Informing the Alliance might be problematic.

As for Spectre status, that's an issue with the whole series. Since ME1 Shepard still acts like he answers to Hackett.

I always found putting Shepard under house arrest to placate Batarians a poor handwave. You think they would settle for nothing less than blood and interpreted the Alliance simply stalling, what would the Alliance PR guy say? "Hey, I know you Batarians are upset but we've got one of the guys who did this in a comfy apartment with warm food and soft beds." The Batarians aren't exactly known for being mild natured and having great trust in humans. And the only reason why Shepard is apparently in the (now stationed at Earth) Alliance defense commitee is because he knows something about Reapers, which no one believes in anyway.

They may settle for no less than Shepard's head, but they also know that a war isn't the only means to that end.

I'm just saying the opening doesn't make any sense, it bascically exists to handwave a reason for Shepard for being on Earth to make a 'we fight or we die' speech. The scene doesn't have any internal consistency and that's what's frustrating.

I'd have to disagree. The opening does make sense to me.

[CronoDragoon]

wright1978 wrote...
His task force did something, maybe not the huge thing that would have happened if the Turian Primarch had of actually believed but he took the token force and deployed it to its maximum. Shep accomplished nothing other than eating hot food and sleeping in soft beds.

Which means what exactly? What did he accomplish? Anything?

I don't particularly mind that Shep makes the bad choice to believe he can actually get the alliance to do something. I'm just annoyed i'm never given the option to express my annoyance at it.

I thought there was a Renegade response that did, but it's been awhile so I'll take your word for it. Yes, Shepard should be able to express frustration at the situation if he doesn't.

[AlanC9]

George Costanza wrote...


And you ignored practically everything I said to quibble about an analogy. It's not a perfect analogy, no. It's merely there to highlight the absurdity of pooling an enormous amount of resources into building a weapon you know next to nothing about, or even how to finish, when you're in the middle of a massive war.

So your point is that putting resources into a long-shot plan is a worse strategy than accepting inevitable defeat? I wasn't offering a correction to your analogy because you had a bad analogy. The analogy itself is fine for the point you were trying to make; it's the substantive point itself that's bad.

Putting "an enormous amount of resources into building a weapon you know next to nothing about, or even how to finish, when you're in the middle of a massive war" is a bad idea if you have any other conceivable way to win that war. But if you don't...

Modifié par AlanC9, 07 février 2014 - 07:23 .

[AlanC9]

EntropicAngel wrote...

The one where Saren's dead body suddenly starts pulsating red and becomes reanimated as a Geth Hopper.

Or the one where you fight this gigantic Reaper baby, in the shape of a human upper body.

I am so glad Bio didn't do an endboss for ME3.