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[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Ieldra2 wrote...

@Julia:
All the stuff I mentioned falls under the very broad category of "bad writing", but it's not a lot of help if we just say "bad writing" and leave it at that.
Also, it doesn't really matter if Shepard was made intentionally stupid or if the writers didn't know any better. It's bad writing either way since a Shepard that stupid would be inappropriate hero material.

 

There's a rule in writing fiction that when a character starts acting out of character people will notice. If you start writing a character that does that you'd better have a damned good justification. We noticed, and they didn't have justification. BTW you listed the major points in the story I had trouble with. I really wasn't disagreeing with you; you know that. 

I agree that a Shepard that stupid would be inappropriate protagonist material. Hero material? I'm not so sure. Heroes can be dumb as rocks. The protagonist doesn't have to be the hero of the story. Shepard is the protagonist. Shepard has to forge alliances and hold the whole thing together. This requires someone with brains, yet they write someone who is at times as dumb as a box of rocks. Unlike someone who used to be on the board, I think that protagonists can be intelligent, however, they cannot come up with the ideas that are the infamous "ass pulls." Those ideas must come from minor characters who are familiar with certain areas of the game or story. ME3 is full of the proverbial "ass pulls." In this story, however, the protagonist and hero are one in the same.

This thing gets like picking at a scab, doesn't it? The complete disconnect between what actually happened on the mission and the way they wrote Shepard and every other character immediately post-Thessia except for Liara was unforgivable. Who wrote that s***? I can understand Liara being upset about Thessia. Shepard should have had two different dialogue trees with Liara: one if romanced, and one if not. Lack of resources? They had quests on the disk they never used. Clean up your program, BW.

Forced Character Stupidity: And shall we add in the Thessia mission in the temple was horribly written. I know people don't like Liara, but whose idea was it to make the PhD in Prothean Archaeology that f***ing stupid? Ashley Williams figured it out before she did. Liara is supposed to be the galaxy's foremost expert on all things Prothean, yet Ashley seems to know more. Take Ashley instead of Javik and experience the pain. Did Sylvia Feketekuty purposely write her this dumb? Or was she directed to write her this ****ing dumb? We know it didn't help out Shepard. Or was it to make Shepard look comparatively intelligent in the upcoming scenes with Kai Leng, The Illusive Man, and of course back on board the Normandy?

Ah, picking at that scab again. I've got to let that thing heal. 

[Iakus]

RangerSG wrote...

I'd agree with you, except  Shepard then tells Anderson, "Losing Thessia wasn't in the playbook." 

Really? The Asari did less to prepare for war than perhaps any Council species. The Asari are repeatedly said to be weak in frontal attacks, which is the 'only' way the Reapers come at you. And the Reapers have steamrolled the 2 largest Navies in the galaxy (Turian and Human) already. Earth and Palavan are burning, it takes the barking Krogan to SLOW the advance of the Reapers on Palavan. And that's seen as a 'miracle.' Countless minor race worlds have been taken.

So tell me, why was losing Thessia not in the playbook? It wasn't going to be a prime Reaper target? Look, if i was Shepard, I'd be more ticked off about losing because I missed the obvious clue (throat cut=sword=phantoms at least=Cerberus nearby). But the dialogue is more about "Oh no! Not Thessia!" It goes back to the triumph of the promotion of Liara over Shepard's own priorities. 

It *should* be about Shepard screwing up and missing what's right there. But it's not. 

That said, it isn't a long scene, and while I want to spacebar my way through that dialogue, it isn't horrific in the sense the endings and the Kai Leng 'fights' are.

Yup. Unless the beacon itself was a Reaper off-switch, Thessia was going to fall no matter what Shepard did.  The Catalyst could have been Hackett's left cufflink, and Thessia was going to fall before the Crucible could be activated.  There was simply no avoiding it at that point, the asari waited too long before throwing in.

Shepard should have been more p*ssed that he lost the beacon before learning what the Catalyst was, than the Reapers taking the planet.

[congokong]

RangerSG wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

@txgoldrush:
Read my mission-by-mission review, there I have explained things in detail and have acknowledged the things that work while criticizing those that don't within the scenes mentioned. At this time, I can't be bothered to go into the details again.

Only one thing: On Thessia, Shepard acts as if Thessia could've been saved if he had acted differently. That's a load of crap that makes no sense at all. It is forced drama.

No, I saw it...sorry, but you are trying to criticize ME3 because it isn't what you want it to be, not because of what it is. Most of you criticizing many aspects of the game simply do not see why Bioware made the choices they did.

"I should've known" that Cerberus was there? "Not good enough"? What crazy logic is that?

The logic is, if you see scientists with their throats slit, you keep your guard up. Shepard should have taken it with him instead of trying to talk with it in the temple.

To a point, only towards ending the war much sooner. Even the scene with the asari councilor, its more about Shepard not succeeding than about saving Thessia.

Nevermind that really Shepard does NOT brood for long. The case is being way overstated here.

I'd agree with you, except  Shepard then tells Anderson, "Losing Thessia wasn't in the playbook." 

Really? The Asari did less to prepare for war than perhaps any Council species. The Asari are repeatedly said to be weak in frontal attacks, which is the 'only' way the Reapers come at you. And the Reapers have steamrolled the 2 largest Navies in the galaxy (Turian and Human) already. Earth and Palavan are burning, it takes the barking Krogan to SLOW the advance of the Reapers on Palavan. And that's seen as a 'miracle.' Countless minor race worlds have been taken.

So tell me, why was losing Thessia not in the playbook? It wasn't going to be a prime Reaper target? Look, if i was Shepard, I'd be more ticked off about losing because I missed the obvious clue (throat cut=sword=phantoms at least=Cerberus nearby). But the dialogue is more about "Oh no! Not Thessia!" It goes back to the triumph of the promotion of Liara over Shepard's own priorities. 

It *should* be about Shepard screwing up and missing what's right there. But it's not. 

That said, it isn't a long scene, and while I want to spacebar my way through that dialogue, it isn't horrific in the sense the endings and the Kai Leng 'fights' are.

It bothered me how they make Shepard blame themself for losing Thessia and talks to the asari councilor like they did something really stupid. I'd be angry at the asari for hiding a prothean artifact considering the laws against doing such. Didn't the asari make those rules? It's even worse if Tevos is still alive because she has been a hindrance to the war effort since the beginning and should really kill herself considering her race is being harvested because of her stupidity. First her inaction against Saren, then denying the reaper threat in ME2, then refusing to support the crucible project in ME3, then refusing to attend the war summit, and then revealing that the asari had a prothean artifact all along. And yet Shepard blames themself?!!

[txgoldrush]

RangerSG wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

@txgoldrush:
Read my mission-by-mission review, there I have explained things in detail and have acknowledged the things that work while criticizing those that don't within the scenes mentioned. At this time, I can't be bothered to go into the details again.

Only one thing: On Thessia, Shepard acts as if Thessia could've been saved if he had acted differently. That's a load of crap that makes no sense at all. It is forced drama.

No, I saw it...sorry, but you are trying to criticize ME3 because it isn't what you want it to be, not because of what it is. Most of you criticizing many aspects of the game simply do not see why Bioware made the choices they did.

"I should've known" that Cerberus was there? "Not good enough"? What crazy logic is that?

The logic is, if you see scientists with their throats slit, you keep your guard up. Shepard should have taken it with him instead of trying to talk with it in the temple.

To a point, only towards ending the war much sooner. Even the scene with the asari councilor, its more about Shepard not succeeding than about saving Thessia.

Nevermind that really Shepard does NOT brood for long. The case is being way overstated here.

I'd agree with you, except  Shepard then tells Anderson, "Losing Thessia wasn't in the playbook." 

Really? The Asari did less to prepare for war than perhaps any Council species. The Asari are repeatedly said to be weak in frontal attacks, which is the 'only' way the Reapers come at you. And the Reapers have steamrolled the 2 largest Navies in the galaxy (Turian and Human) already. Earth and Palavan are burning, it takes the barking Krogan to SLOW the advance of the Reapers on Palavan. And that's seen as a 'miracle.' Countless minor race worlds have been taken.

So tell me, why was losing Thessia not in the playbook? It wasn't going to be a prime Reaper target? Look, if i was Shepard, I'd be more ticked off about losing because I missed the obvious clue (throat cut=sword=phantoms at least=Cerberus nearby). But the dialogue is more about "Oh no! Not Thessia!" It goes back to the triumph of the promotion of Liara over Shepard's own priorities. 

It *should* be about Shepard screwing up and missing what's right there. But it's not. 

That said, it isn't a long scene, and while I want to spacebar my way through that dialogue, it isn't horrific in the sense the endings and the Kai Leng 'fights' are.

You are not looking at the logic behind the mission. Saving Thessia is part of the mission itself. The logic is that if they can get the final component of the Crucible, Thessia would be saved because they would end the war quicker, halting the assault on Thessia. Since they failed, Thessia is surely lost. That's how they "lose" Thessia.

[txgoldrush]

congokong wrote...

RangerSG wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

@txgoldrush:
Read my mission-by-mission review, there I have explained things in detail and have acknowledged the things that work while criticizing those that don't within the scenes mentioned. At this time, I can't be bothered to go into the details again.

Only one thing: On Thessia, Shepard acts as if Thessia could've been saved if he had acted differently. That's a load of crap that makes no sense at all. It is forced drama.

No, I saw it...sorry, but you are trying to criticize ME3 because it isn't what you want it to be, not because of what it is. Most of you criticizing many aspects of the game simply do not see why Bioware made the choices they did.

"I should've known" that Cerberus was there? "Not good enough"? What crazy logic is that?

The logic is, if you see scientists with their throats slit, you keep your guard up. Shepard should have taken it with him instead of trying to talk with it in the temple.

To a point, only towards ending the war much sooner. Even the scene with the asari councilor, its more about Shepard not succeeding than about saving Thessia.

Nevermind that really Shepard does NOT brood for long. The case is being way overstated here.

I'd agree with you, except  Shepard then tells Anderson, "Losing Thessia wasn't in the playbook." 

Really? The Asari did less to prepare for war than perhaps any Council species. The Asari are repeatedly said to be weak in frontal attacks, which is the 'only' way the Reapers come at you. And the Reapers have steamrolled the 2 largest Navies in the galaxy (Turian and Human) already. Earth and Palavan are burning, it takes the barking Krogan to SLOW the advance of the Reapers on Palavan. And that's seen as a 'miracle.' Countless minor race worlds have been taken.

So tell me, why was losing Thessia not in the playbook? It wasn't going to be a prime Reaper target? Look, if i was Shepard, I'd be more ticked off about losing because I missed the obvious clue (throat cut=sword=phantoms at least=Cerberus nearby). But the dialogue is more about "Oh no! Not Thessia!" It goes back to the triumph of the promotion of Liara over Shepard's own priorities. 

It *should* be about Shepard screwing up and missing what's right there. But it's not. 

That said, it isn't a long scene, and while I want to spacebar my way through that dialogue, it isn't horrific in the sense the endings and the Kai Leng 'fights' are.

It bothered me how they make Shepard blame themself for losing Thessia and talks to the asari councilor like they did something really stupid. I'd be angry at the asari for hiding a prothean artifact considering the laws against doing such. Didn't the asari make those rules? It's even worse if Tevos is still alive because she has been a hindrance to the war effort since the beginning and should really kill herself considering her race is being harvested because of her stupidity. First her inaction against Saren, then denying the reaper threat in ME2, then refusing to support the crucible project in ME3, then refusing to attend the war summit, and then revealing that the asari had a prothean artifact all along. And yet Shepard blames themself?!!

You did not get it.

Shepard blames himself because he failed to look for signs of ambush (the dead scientists not killed by Reapers), to focused on the Catalyst.

Yes, he failed and he blames himself.

[congokong]

txgoldrush wrote...

congokong wrote...

RangerSG wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

@txgoldrush:
Read my mission-by-mission review, there I have explained things in detail and have acknowledged the things that work while criticizing those that don't within the scenes mentioned. At this time, I can't be bothered to go into the details again.

Only one thing: On Thessia, Shepard acts as if Thessia could've been saved if he had acted differently. That's a load of crap that makes no sense at all. It is forced drama.

No, I saw it...sorry, but you are trying to criticize ME3 because it isn't what you want it to be, not because of what it is. Most of you criticizing many aspects of the game simply do not see why Bioware made the choices they did.

"I should've known" that Cerberus was there? "Not good enough"? What crazy logic is that?

The logic is, if you see scientists with their throats slit, you keep your guard up. Shepard should have taken it with him instead of trying to talk with it in the temple.

To a point, only towards ending the war much sooner. Even the scene with the asari councilor, its more about Shepard not succeeding than about saving Thessia.

Nevermind that really Shepard does NOT brood for long. The case is being way overstated here.

I'd agree with you, except  Shepard then tells Anderson, "Losing Thessia wasn't in the playbook." 

Really? The Asari did less to prepare for war than perhaps any Council species. The Asari are repeatedly said to be weak in frontal attacks, which is the 'only' way the Reapers come at you. And the Reapers have steamrolled the 2 largest Navies in the galaxy (Turian and Human) already. Earth and Palavan are burning, it takes the barking Krogan to SLOW the advance of the Reapers on Palavan. And that's seen as a 'miracle.' Countless minor race worlds have been taken.

So tell me, why was losing Thessia not in the playbook? It wasn't going to be a prime Reaper target? Look, if i was Shepard, I'd be more ticked off about losing because I missed the obvious clue (throat cut=sword=phantoms at least=Cerberus nearby). But the dialogue is more about "Oh no! Not Thessia!" It goes back to the triumph of the promotion of Liara over Shepard's own priorities. 

It *should* be about Shepard screwing up and missing what's right there. But it's not. 

That said, it isn't a long scene, and while I want to spacebar my way through that dialogue, it isn't horrific in the sense the endings and the Kai Leng 'fights' are.

It bothered me how they make Shepard blame themself for losing Thessia and talks to the asari councilor like they did something really stupid. I'd be angry at the asari for hiding a prothean artifact considering the laws against doing such. Didn't the asari make those rules? It's even worse if Tevos is still alive because she has been a hindrance to the war effort since the beginning and should really kill herself considering her race is being harvested because of her stupidity. First her inaction against Saren, then denying the reaper threat in ME2, then refusing to support the crucible project in ME3, then refusing to attend the war summit, and then revealing that the asari had a prothean artifact all along. And yet Shepard blames themself?!!

You did not get it.

Shepard blames himself because he failed to look for signs of ambush (the dead scientists not killed by Reapers), to focused on the Catalyst.

Yes, he failed and he blames himself.

"Losing Thessia wasn't in the playbook." That's just stupid.

Ambush? The place was crawling with reapers and then a Cerberus helicopter. What the hell could Shepard have done differently besides get some damn air support? When I fought Kai Leng he never even got close to me yet he won because he had reinforcements. Looking for ambushes had nothing to do with it.

[Display Name Owner]

I don't know about MOST poorly written, but one that stands out to me is the talk with the Rannoch Reaper. It just uses a lot of words like "inevitability" and "comprehend" to try to sound intelligent, whilst saying nothing remotely intelligent at all. Like a really bad attempt at recapturing the Sovvy speech.

It's made all the more silly sounding when you find that the Reaper's motivations are very much comprehensible.

[ImaginaryMatter]

txgoldrush wrote...

(4) The process of synthesis may be a handwave, but the fact that the Reapers favor it is foreshadowed all throughout the trilogy.

I think you're going to have to explain that one.

[ImaginaryMatter]

isnudo wrote...

I don't know about MOST poorly written, but one that stands out to me is the talk with the Rannoch Reaper. It just uses a lot of words like "inevitability" and "comprehend" to try to sound intelligent, whilst saying nothing remotely intelligent at all. Like a really bad attempt at recapturing the Sovvy speech.

It's made all the more silly sounding when you find that the Reaper's motivations are very much comprehensible.

Old but applicable video:

[Iakus]

ImaginaryMatter wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

(4) The process of synthesis may be a handwave, but the fact that the Reapers favor it is foreshadowed all throughout the trilogy.

I think you're going to have to explain that one.

Well, there's indoctrinated Saren's justification:

The relationship is symbiotic. Organic and machine intertwined, a union of flesh and steel. The strengths of both, the weaknesses of neither. I am a vision of the future, Shepard. The evolution of all organic life. This is our destiny. Join Sovereign and experience a true rebirth.

[ImaginaryMatter]

iakus wrote...

ImaginaryMatter wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

(4) The process of synthesis may be a handwave, but the fact that the Reapers favor it is foreshadowed all throughout the trilogy.

I think you're going to have to explain that one.

Well, there's indoctrinated Saren's justification:

The relationship is symbiotic. Organic and machine intertwined, a union of flesh and steel. The strengths of both, the weaknesses of neither. I am a vision of the future, Shepard. The evolution of all organic life. This is our destiny. Join Sovereign and experience a true rebirth.

Saren was deep in Indoctrination land though, Sovereign didn't implant Saren to strengthen the Turian but control him.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

iakus wrote...

RangerSG wrote...

I'd agree with you, except  Shepard then tells Anderson, "Losing Thessia wasn't in the playbook." 

Really? The Asari did less to prepare for war than perhaps any Council species. The Asari are repeatedly said to be weak in frontal attacks, which is the 'only' way the Reapers come at you. And the Reapers have steamrolled the 2 largest Navies in the galaxy (Turian and Human) already. Earth and Palavan are burning, it takes the barking Krogan to SLOW the advance of the Reapers on Palavan. And that's seen as a 'miracle.' Countless minor race worlds have been taken.

So tell me, why was losing Thessia not in the playbook? It wasn't going to be a prime Reaper target? Look, if i was Shepard, I'd be more ticked off about losing because I missed the obvious clue (throat cut=sword=phantoms at least=Cerberus nearby). But the dialogue is more about "Oh no! Not Thessia!" It goes back to the triumph of the promotion of Liara over Shepard's own priorities. 

It *should* be about Shepard screwing up and missing what's right there. But it's not. 

That said, it isn't a long scene, and while I want to spacebar my way through that dialogue, it isn't horrific in the sense the endings and the Kai Leng 'fights' are.

Yup. Unless the beacon itself was a Reaper off-switch, Thessia was going to fall no matter what Shepard did.  The Catalyst could have been Hackett's left cufflink, and Thessia was going to fall before the Crucible could be activated.  There was simply no avoiding it at that point, the asari waited too long before throwing in.

Shepard should have been more p*ssed that he lost the beacon before learning what the Catalyst was, than the Reapers taking the planet.

The Asari were fighting the Reapers. What would you have them do? Not look after their own worlds? Define throwing in. If they had said "we're with you" in the beginning would that have made a difference? No. Why? The Crucible wasn't finished. If they had sent everything to defend Earth, the Reapers would simply shift everything to attacking the other worlds, gather more husks, and leave Earth for last. They're patient. Then Earth faces the full force of the Reapers. So it wouldn't have made any difference. Same with the Turians. Heck maybe the Reapers would have gotten smart and attacked the Citadel and ended the story.

They still had to defend their own worlds. The outcome would have been exactly the same. They weren't sitting on their asses. They were doing a decent job in space battles, but once the Reapers decided that fighting them in space was too costly and decided to land, the battle was lost. What are a bunch of commandos going to do against an enemy taller than skyscrapers? Even Zaeed comments on this. What's any infantry going to do? Without thousands of dreadnoughts it was a lost cause. Ask the Protheans. Thessia was going to fall no matter what Shepard did.

Palaven fell, too. The Turians just sent what they had left to Earth. It just took longer on the ground because we got them the Krogan. "You want our support? Get me the Krogan." 

Earth fell. Having a resistance doesn't mean it didn't fall.

The Salarians never threw in. They didn't get hit until our "Battle for London." I'm not going to count their 90 War Assets of STG. They kept their navy home because we cured the genophage. You got the Salarian navy if you faked the genophage.

So Shepard gets to act totally out of character and get all down because "losing Thessia was not in the playbook." Who the f*** wrote those scenes? Horrible! What? Maybe what just hits Shepard is that blue nookie is now an endangered commodity. Maybe that's what those scenes were about? <_< 

[CptData]

Hmmm, lemme think about:

ME1:
Not much to add here. The main plot was done nicely, although several side missions felt out of place and poorly written.

ME2:
I can't remind any really BAD scenes in the sense of "badly created" but ME2 had several "insane troll logic" moments. Jacobs dad, for example. That entire mission felt quite out of place and the outcome wasn't much better.
Of course, there's always that infamous scene with the VS (in my case mostly Ashley, sorry Kaidan) on Horizon. It's one of those scene that always will keep in my mind as utterly stupid. And no, that's not a fault of the VS - their reaction was quite understandable, but Shepard's heroic stupid epic fail talk. Seriously. Paragon!option - recruiting the VS? What weed did you take, Skip? You were loathing Cerberus half the game until that point (if played as paragon) and then you ask the only person in the galaxy 100% loyal to the Alliance military to join a known terrorist organization you hate with your guts?
Seriously?

M3:
Actually, ME3 had its fair share of stupid moments. Of course, the endings - still. No need to go into details here.
But there are other absolute cringe-worthy scenes and moments.
Jacob's mission? Ouch. If you romanced him - double ouch. If you didn't romance him, he bluntly stats Shepard that his only love is the Normandy. Shepard's LI is right next to him. Actually, Jacob turns from a quite nice and level-headed guy to a walking cliché in ME3. Absolutely not funny.
And then we have the Fall of Thessia. You know, the planet with all those pretty blue space babes. Even if you're a total Asari fan - you can't take it serious. The whole cast of the Normandy tells Thessia got destroyed. Wait - what? No, you're wrong. Thessia didn't get destroyed. It's under attack, Reaper forces are invading that planet and curb-stomping the Asari military. It's not much different from the attack on Earth or Palaven. And, as far as I recall, Earth is still quite alive and kicking at the end of the series. Which pretty much means Thessia survives as well. So why the exaggeration?
It's not the "fall of Thessia" that should get into focus. It's the fact Kai Leng snatched the prothean VI right in front of Shepard from the bacon, jeopardizing the ENTIRE mission to gather information for completing the Crucible. THAT was Shepard's defeat, not the invasion of Thessia - which couldn't be prevented at all. And if I remember correctly, it also wasn't Shepard's objective.

*sigh*

There are several other weak / badly done scenes. Some of them feel like that because it's difficult to avoid them or they feel OOC. Others are played for the lulz (like several scenes in Citadel) and some feel silly. Still, the aforementioned scenes hit it hard, and the entire Thessia-Aftermath is the worst non-ending scene. Of course, that's just my opinion. But you asked for it.

[SwobyJ]

ImaginaryMatter wrote...

iakus wrote...

ImaginaryMatter wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

(4) The process of synthesis may be a handwave, but the fact that the Reapers favor it is foreshadowed all throughout the trilogy.

I think you're going to have to explain that one.

Well, there's indoctrinated Saren's justification:

The relationship is symbiotic. Organic and machine intertwined, a union of flesh and steel. The strengths of both, the weaknesses of neither. I am a vision of the future, Shepard. The evolution of all organic life. This is our destiny. Join Sovereign and experience a true rebirth.

Saren was deep in Indoctrination land though, Sovereign didn't implant Saren to strengthen the Turian but control him.

Mass Effect Trilogy Twist: It was both to strengthen and control.

[congokong]

CptData wrote...

ME2:
I can't remind any really BAD scenes in the sense of "badly created" but ME2 had several "insane troll logic" moments. Jacobs dad, for example. That entire mission felt quite out of place and the outcome wasn't much better.
Of course, there's always that infamous scene with the VS (in my case mostly Ashley, sorry Kaidan) on Horizon. It's one of those scene that always will keep in my mind as utterly stupid. And no, that's not a fault of the VS - their reaction was quite understandable, but Shepard's heroic stupid epic fail talk. Seriously. Paragon!option - recruiting the VS? What weed did you take, Skip? You were loathing Cerberus half the game until that point (if played as paragon) and then you ask the only person in the galaxy 100% loyal to the Alliance military to join a known terrorist organization you hate with your guts?
Seriously?

Too true. I never asked her to join because she's a ****. I always picked the "fat chance" option because there's no way she'd make a 180 and join you even after her "I'd follow you anywhere" line which was proven to be a lie. But she got what was coming to her in ME3.

I also never gave Cerberus that much crap though because in ME2 they were heroes and were doing so much for Shepard's cause. They may do many gray things but the real difference between them and the Alliance is that the Alliance was government sanctioned.

M3:
Actually, ME3 had its fair share of stupid moments. Of course, the endings - still. No need to go into details here.
But there are other absolute cringe-worthy scenes and moments.
Jacob's mission? Ouch. If you romanced him - double ouch. If you didn't romance him, he bluntly stats Shepard that his only love is the Normandy. Shepard's LI is right next to him. Actually, Jacob turns from a quite nice and level-headed guy to a walking cliché in ME3. Absolutely not funny.

You ever have a moment where you read something that reflects your impression so much for a second you think you're reading something you wrote? That just happened here. I hated Jacob for that "the Normandy is your real love" comment, and as usual in ME3 you just have to roll with it without a "get stuffed" dialogue response. Besides Jacob coming off as super selfish given the circumstances, it's obvious that declaration is just a cop-out justification for why Shepard is still fighting the reapers when Jacob isn't. He tells himself Shepard just happens to love fighting reapers so Shepard is no better. Bull****. And made even worse by the fact that you can't correct him. Also, my LI was right next to me when he said it.

Modifié par congokong, 12 février 2014 - 11:49 .

[CptData]

Yeah, just saying it. And nope, don't get me started about all the stuff BW did with Ashley in ME3. Of course, if you got rid of her in ME3 (or before), it shouldn't bother you that much. But if she was with you, either as LI or extra gun for your team (or both, like in my case), she had several cringe-worthy moments. Especially that hangover scene. I mean, it was fun to watch - but it's also so incredibly OOC, you can't take it serious. At least not without context - which is missing. What made her to get drunk that hard?
Just for instance. Other characters got also a quite bad treatment: where's the Miranda I loved in ME2, for instance?

Well, just that. I'm beating a dead horse, of course, but things like these give me the strong urge to simply rewrite the entire series, go to BW HQ and convince 'em to make a full series reboot.

Not kidding.

[Redbelle]

Most poorly written scene?

Funnily enough it's one of the best scene's in delivering Tchunka's history from a POV we have never heard of before delivered by a blatently, wear's her sexist views on her sleeve Bakura.

Has anyone who listened to her, heard how she regards the males of her planet?

She pretty much lumps all the ills of her world on their soldier's while taking no moral responsibilty for the apparent inaction of her own gender.

Now.... why is this badly written?

Well..... If Wrex had that attitude, and denounced the fate that has befallen his people, the crumbling of Krogan culture and then pushed all the blame onto the females of his species while refusing to speak of, and by implication, view them as equals, he'd be a complete douche.

And Eve essentially does all this in one conversation. Yet seems to get away with expressing the view that she deems her gender to be superior, yet never rationalises this aspect of her belief she expresses with the current state of of her people.

It's far from bad writing. It's great writing in that Eve is a sympathetic character who is allowed to get away without with sexism without being significantly challenged as to her point of view.

It's bad writing however, that this sort of view is allowed to go past without challenge of any form. The most praise she gives to Wrex is that he is different, and therefore while male, is not male in the same way as other Krogan and tell's Shepard that he is a mutant.

So basically, Eve's a passive aggressive personality that refuses to accept responsibity for the state of her species and in doing so..... demonstrates that she was as powerless as the males of her species to affect the kind of change needed to prevent the fall of her culture. And by way of coping, heaps blame on other's of her species who took an active part in her cultures downfall while refusing to acknowledge her own inaction as being another contributing factor to the woes of the Krogan.

So yes. Great writing, and the worst writing in the form of sexism that is allowed to pass by without comment or critique.

Modifié par Redbelle, 13 février 2014 - 12:02 .

[Iakus]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

The Asari were fighting the Reapers. What would you have them do? Not look after their own worlds? Define throwing in. If they had said "we're with you" in the beginning would that have made a difference? No. Why? The Crucible wasn't finished. If they had sent everything to defend Earth, the Reapers would simply shift everything to attacking the other worlds, gather more husks, and leave Earth for last. They're patient. Then Earth faces the full force of the Reapers. So it wouldn't have made any difference. Same with the Turians. Heck maybe the Reapers would have gotten smart and attacked the Citadel and ended the story.

They still had to defend their own worlds. The outcome would have been exactly the same. They weren't sitting on their asses. They were doing a decent job in space battles, but once the Reapers decided that fighting them in space was too costly and decided to land, the battle was lost. What are a bunch of commandos going to do against an enemy taller than skyscrapers? Even Zaeed comments on this. What's any infantry going to do? Without thousands of dreadnoughts it was a lost cause. Ask the Protheans. Thessia was going to fall no matter what Shepard did.

Palaven fell, too. The Turians just sent what they had left to Earth. It just took longer on the ground because we got them the Krogan. "You want our support? Get me the Krogan." 

Earth fell. Having a resistance doesn't mean it didn't fall.

The Salarians never threw in. They didn't get hit until our "Battle for London." I'm not going to count their 90 War Assets of STG. They kept their navy home because we cured the genophage. You got the Salarian navy if you faked the genophage.

So Shepard gets to act totally out of character and get all down because "losing Thessia was not in the playbook." Who the f*** wrote those scenes? Horrible! What? Maybe what just hits Shepard is that blue nookie is now an endangered commodity. Maybe that's what those scenes were about? <_< 

Well, the difference being if the asari had helped out before we might have learned about the beacon a lot sooner, and perhaps have both learned about the Catalyst before Thessia got pounded by the Reapers and deployed the Crucible before the Reapers captured the Citadel.

Instead Shepard doesn't learn of it until Thessia is already under seige, and thinks it's his/her fault.


Tali saved the galaxy?  The asari Councilor nearly doomed it 

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

CptData wrote...

Hmmm, lemme think about:

ME1:
Not much to add here. The main plot was done nicely, although several side missions felt out of place and poorly written.

ME2:
I can't remind any really BAD scenes in the sense of "badly created" but ME2 had several "insane troll logic" moments. Jacobs dad, for example. That entire mission felt quite out of place and the outcome wasn't much better.
Of course, there's always that infamous scene with the VS (in my case mostly Ashley, sorry Kaidan) on Horizon. It's one of those scene that always will keep in my mind as utterly stupid. And no, that's not a fault of the VS - their reaction was quite understandable, but Shepard's heroic stupid epic fail talk. Seriously. Paragon!option - recruiting the VS? What weed did you take, Skip? You were loathing Cerberus half the game until that point (if played as paragon) and then you ask the only person in the galaxy 100% loyal to the Alliance military to join a known terrorist organization you hate with your guts?
Seriously?

M3:
Actually, ME3 had its fair share of stupid moments. Of course, the endings - still. No need to go into details here.
But there are other absolute cringe-worthy scenes and moments.
Jacob's mission? Ouch. If you romanced him - double ouch. If you didn't romance him, he bluntly stats Shepard that his only love is the Normandy. Shepard's LI is right next to him. Actually, Jacob turns from a quite nice and level-headed guy to a walking cliché in ME3. Absolutely not funny.
And then we have the Fall of Thessia. You know, the planet with all those pretty blue space babes. Even if you're a total Asari fan - you can't take it serious. The whole cast of the Normandy tells Thessia got destroyed. Wait - what? No, you're wrong. Thessia didn't get destroyed. It's under attack, Reaper forces are invading that planet and curb-stomping the Asari military. It's not much different from the attack on Earth or Palaven. And, as far as I recall, Earth is still quite alive and kicking at the end of the series. Which pretty much means Thessia survives as well. So why the exaggeration?
It's not the "fall of Thessia" that should get into focus. It's the fact Kai Leng snatched the prothean VI right in front of Shepard from the bacon, jeopardizing the ENTIRE mission to gather information for completing the Crucible. THAT was Shepard's defeat, not the invasion of Thessia - which couldn't be prevented at all. And if I remember correctly, it also wasn't Shepard's objective.

*sigh*

There are several other weak / badly done scenes. Some of them feel like that because it's difficult to avoid them or they feel OOC. Others are played for the lulz (like several scenes in Citadel) and some feel silly. Still, the aforementioned scenes hit it hard, and the entire Thessia-Aftermath is the worst non-ending scene. Of course, that's just my opinion. But you asked for it.

I agree with you, and yes, I'm a total Asari fan. It's just so stupid. Everyone got curb stomped. The Turians were getting curb-stomped until the Krogan arrived then they started pushing back ... with an 80% casualty rate if you listened to Garrus. How long could they keep up that. I don't think very long. The "miracle on Palaven" was propaganda. 

Jacob becoming the bad cliche. Ashley? Oh you had to pick this scab. What I found odd was that Ashley responded better to renegade options. It must have been her military discipline. Paragon options she just kept whining and pissing and moaning about Cerberus. But Horizon? You just saved her life. She would have been on the Collector Ship with the colonists if you hadn't shown up. One would have expected a little gratitude. But I'm now thinking the way the handled the VS through the rest of the series they should have just written the VS out of the series altogether after ME1 and perhaps had them killed on the Normandy during the Collector attack. Ashley was replaced by "Hey" down in the shuttle bay. In real military promotions she should have been Operations Chief, not Lt. Cmdr. Kaidan should have been Lt. Cmdr not Major, but he was dead in all but one of my games.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

iakus wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

The Asari were fighting the Reapers. What would you have them do? Not look after their own worlds? Define throwing in. If they had said "we're with you" in the beginning would that have made a difference? No. Why? The Crucible wasn't finished. If they had sent everything to defend Earth, the Reapers would simply shift everything to attacking the other worlds, gather more husks, and leave Earth for last. They're patient. Then Earth faces the full force of the Reapers. So it wouldn't have made any difference. Same with the Turians. Heck maybe the Reapers would have gotten smart and attacked the Citadel and ended the story.

They still had to defend their own worlds. The outcome would have been exactly the same. They weren't sitting on their asses. They were doing a decent job in space battles, but once the Reapers decided that fighting them in space was too costly and decided to land, the battle was lost. What are a bunch of commandos going to do against an enemy taller than skyscrapers? Even Zaeed comments on this. What's any infantry going to do? Without thousands of dreadnoughts it was a lost cause. Ask the Protheans. Thessia was going to fall no matter what Shepard did.

Palaven fell, too. The Turians just sent what they had left to Earth. It just took longer on the ground because we got them the Krogan. "You want our support? Get me the Krogan." 

Earth fell. Having a resistance doesn't mean it didn't fall.

The Salarians never threw in. They didn't get hit until our "Battle for London." I'm not going to count their 90 War Assets of STG. They kept their navy home because we cured the genophage. You got the Salarian navy if you faked the genophage.

So Shepard gets to act totally out of character and get all down because "losing Thessia was not in the playbook." Who the f*** wrote those scenes? Horrible! What? Maybe what just hits Shepard is that blue nookie is now an endangered commodity. Maybe that's what those scenes were about? <_< 

Well, the difference being if the asari had helped out before we might have learned about the beacon a lot sooner, and perhaps have both learned about the Catalyst before Thessia got pounded by the Reapers and deployed the Crucible before the Reapers captured the Citadel.

Instead Shepard doesn't learn of it until Thessia is already under seige, and thinks it's his/her fault.


Tali saved the galaxy?  The asari Councilor nearly doomed it 

But Vendetta wasn't supposed to activate and give information about the Catalyst until the Crucible was nearly completed anyway. It was part of the safety protocols that the Protheans put on the beacon. We might have known about the beacon but wouldn't have been known about Vendetta until that point in the story. Still, Cerberus would have found out about it, and beat us to the punch when it came time to retrieve the VI because: 1) they needed to throw a pile of feces in the way of our protagonist. 2) they needed to give Kai Leng something to do.

Still they needed to make Shepard come to the realization that blue nookie was now an endangered species and he or she had to feel bad about that over everything else. The expression on femShep's face in that picture up above - caption "If things don't work out between Liara and I, or something happens to her, where am I going to find more blue alien nookie?"

[congokong]

CptData wrote...

Yeah, just saying it. And nope, don't get me started about all the stuff BW did with Ashley in ME3. Of course, if you got rid of her in ME3 (or before), it shouldn't bother you that much. But if she was with you, either as LI or extra gun for your team (or both, like in my case), she had several cringe-worthy moments. Especially that hangover scene. I mean, it was fun to watch - but it's also so incredibly OOC, you can't take it serious. At least not without context - which is missing. What made her to get drunk that hard?
Just for instance. Other characters got also a quite bad treatment: where's the Miranda I loved in ME2, for instance?

Well, just that. I'm beating a dead horse, of course, but things like these give me the strong urge to simply rewrite the entire series, go to BW HQ and convince 'em to make a full series reboot.

Not kidding.

I didn't mind Ashley's hangover scene much. She was off-duty. It's pretty feasible. You know, because of the reapers harvesting millions of humans on earth and all; not to mention the rest of the galaxy.

I could never romance Ashley but beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I only kept her alive in ME1 so I could shoot her in ME3, but based on your thumbnail and signature I assume you like her a lot. lol

Miranda's character was nerfed in ME3. Such a "strong" woman had many ways to die, but that death made her interesting; if only briefly.

[RangerSG]

txgoldrush wrote...

congokong wrote...

RangerSG wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

@txgoldrush:
Read my mission-by-mission review, there I have explained things in detail and have acknowledged the things that work while criticizing those that don't within the scenes mentioned. At this time, I can't be bothered to go into the details again.

Only one thing: On Thessia, Shepard acts as if Thessia could've been saved if he had acted differently. That's a load of crap that makes no sense at all. It is forced drama.

No, I saw it...sorry, but you are trying to criticize ME3 because it isn't what you want it to be, not because of what it is. Most of you criticizing many aspects of the game simply do not see why Bioware made the choices they did.

"I should've known" that Cerberus was there? "Not good enough"? What crazy logic is that?

The logic is, if you see scientists with their throats slit, you keep your guard up. Shepard should have taken it with him instead of trying to talk with it in the temple.

To a point, only towards ending the war much sooner. Even the scene with the asari councilor, its more about Shepard not succeeding than about saving Thessia.

Nevermind that really Shepard does NOT brood for long. The case is being way overstated here.

I'd agree with you, except  Shepard then tells Anderson, "Losing Thessia wasn't in the playbook." 

Really? The Asari did less to prepare for war than perhaps any Council species. The Asari are repeatedly said to be weak in frontal attacks, which is the 'only' way the Reapers come at you. And the Reapers have steamrolled the 2 largest Navies in the galaxy (Turian and Human) already. Earth and Palavan are burning, it takes the barking Krogan to SLOW the advance of the Reapers on Palavan. And that's seen as a 'miracle.' Countless minor race worlds have been taken.

So tell me, why was losing Thessia not in the playbook? It wasn't going to be a prime Reaper target? Look, if i was Shepard, I'd be more ticked off about losing because I missed the obvious clue (throat cut=sword=phantoms at least=Cerberus nearby). But the dialogue is more about "Oh no! Not Thessia!" It goes back to the triumph of the promotion of Liara over Shepard's own priorities. 

It *should* be about Shepard screwing up and missing what's right there. But it's not. 

That said, it isn't a long scene, and while I want to spacebar my way through that dialogue, it isn't horrific in the sense the endings and the Kai Leng 'fights' are.

It bothered me how they make Shepard blame themself for losing Thessia and talks to the asari councilor like they did something really stupid. I'd be angry at the asari for hiding a prothean artifact considering the laws against doing such. Didn't the asari make those rules? It's even worse if Tevos is still alive because she has been a hindrance to the war effort since the beginning and should really kill herself considering her race is being harvested because of her stupidity. First her inaction against Saren, then denying the reaper threat in ME2, then refusing to support the crucible project in ME3, then refusing to attend the war summit, and then revealing that the asari had a prothean artifact all along. And yet Shepard blames themself?!!

You did not get it.

Shepard blames himself because he failed to look for signs of ambush (the dead scientists not killed by Reapers), to focused on the Catalyst.

Yes, he failed and he blames himself.

He failed, and blames himself. But not for the reason he actually failed. Nor do I really see why Shepard should be be more upset that Thessia fell than he was for Palavan or Earth. Yet Thessia gets a bigger "Woe is me!" than either of those. And he doesn't mention the reason he screwed up.

And it wasn't an ambush. The place was crawling with enemies. The real issue is why did Shepard feel the need to chat with Vendetta there, instead of someplace secure...like the Normandy's War Room. No, let's have a discussion that we've no idea how long will last with Reapers and something that cuts throats (Hmm, who could that be?) wandering around. Yeah, they're just going to politely wait until you get done.

So yeah, I got it. The scene's a mess because Shepard is made to feel guilty for something he could do nothing about, while ignoring the thing that he OUGHT to have seen.

[von uber]

I don't mind the post Thessia scene. I suspect if it wasn't the Asari people wouldn't moan as much.
I see it as the final pebble that weighs Shepard down; the stress of the war causes her to crack. This is somewhat justified in my mind by her subsequent gathering herself together and new found resolve to find ninja boy.

the argument of 'my Shepard wouldn't do that' well you know what? My Shepard doesn't give a flying toss about Earth and yet has to suffer being told how earth is all that matters. But there;s no point moaning about it because it is not 'our' Shepard really, it is Bioware's and we have a limited choice in how that character really behaves (i.e. within the confines they set). And they chose Shepard to crack at that moment and in my opinion I don't think it is bad at all.

That just goes to show that everybody has a different opinion on what bad writing is.





Apart from Kai Leng of course.

Edit to add:

What about the thousand yard stare Shep gives after the primark's son dies? Why would my Shep be so affected by that and less than, say, hearing Asari commandos get slaughtered over the radio when she knows their sacrifice (which they did for her after being persuaded too) was ultimately in vain?

Modifié par von uber, 13 février 2014 - 01:05 .

[TheMyron]

CptData wrote...

Yeah, just saying it. And nope, don't get me started about all the stuff BW did with Ashley in ME3. Of course, if you got rid of her in ME3 (or before), it shouldn't bother you that much. But if she was with you, either as LI or extra gun for your team (or both, like in my case), she had several cringe-worthy moments. Especially that hangover scene. I mean, it was fun to watch - but it's also so incredibly OOC, you can't take it serious. At least not without context - which is missing. What made her to get drunk that hard?
Just for instance. Other characters got also a quite bad treatment: where's the Miranda I loved in ME2, for instance?

Well, just that. I'm beating a dead horse, of course, but things like these give me the strong urge to simply rewrite the entire series, go to BW HQ and convince 'em to make a full series reboot.

Not kidding.

A reboot where all three games are made simultaneously would be good; equal graphics and things like that would be nice.

Plus, the way side stories are put out needs to be reconsidered; a cheap cartoon for Paragon Lost, Really, BW? What do you think your audience consists of, a bunch of children?