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[ImaginaryMatter]

Who's to say Shepard didn't search for signs of an ambush? The Cerberus copter and it's henchman Kai Leng literally appear out of nowhere. Then again the two seem to have magical powers as they not only beat Shepard and friends in the most ludicrous fashion ever, and appear out of nowhere, but they also somehow manage to escape the system all without ever being seen.

[txgoldrush]

ImaginaryMatter wrote...

Who's to say Shepard didn't search for signs of an ambush? The Cerberus copter and it's henchman Kai Leng literally appear out of nowhere. Then again the two seem to have magical powers as they not only beat Shepard and friends in the most ludicrous fashion ever, and appear out of nowhere, but they also somehow manage to escape the system all without ever being seen.

Did you even pay attention to where TIM said that they knew where Vendetta is through the Mars Archive? That he has plans in motion for Leng after the coup failure?

And very clearly, Shepard did NOT search for signs of an ambush. Who is to say they he didn't? The narrative.

[ImaginaryMatter]

txgoldrush wrote...

ImaginaryMatter wrote...

Who's to say Shepard didn't search for signs of an ambush? The Cerberus copter and it's henchman Kai Leng literally appear out of nowhere. Then again the two seem to have magical powers as they not only beat Shepard and friends in the most ludicrous fashion ever, and appear out of nowhere, but they also somehow manage to escape the system all without ever being seen.

Did you even pay attention to where TIM said that they knew where Vendetta is through the Mars Archive? That he has plans in motion for Leng after the coup failure?

And very clearly, Shepard did NOT search for signs of an ambush. Who is to say they he didn't? The narrative.

I don't believe Shepard sees Kai Leng's conversation with TIM after the Cerberus coup if that's what you're talkign about.

Also, when I said they appear out of nowhere I mean where was the helicopter physically hiding? The place was swarmed by Harvesters until Shepard and friends and Talon Five clear them out, so it seems unlikely that it was in the area unless it had an invisibility cloak. As I said before it literally appears out of nowhere I have trouble believing that no one Shepard, Reapers, or Asari did not notice it.

As for investigating James said it looked like whoever killed the scientists was gone and Shepard responds to the party to stay alert, which they did, unfortunately they weren't expecting Cerberus black magic.

[txgoldrush]

ImaginaryMatter wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

ImaginaryMatter wrote...

Who's to say Shepard didn't search for signs of an ambush? The Cerberus copter and it's henchman Kai Leng literally appear out of nowhere. Then again the two seem to have magical powers as they not only beat Shepard and friends in the most ludicrous fashion ever, and appear out of nowhere, but they also somehow manage to escape the system all without ever being seen.

Did you even pay attention to where TIM said that they knew where Vendetta is through the Mars Archive? That he has plans in motion for Leng after the coup failure?

And very clearly, Shepard did NOT search for signs of an ambush. Who is to say they he didn't? The narrative.

I don't believe Shepard sees Kai Leng's conversation with TIM after the Cerberus coup if that's what you're talkign about.

Also, when I said they appear out of nowhere I mean where was the helicopter physically hiding? The place was swarmed by Harvesters until Shepard and friends and Talon Five clear them out, so it seems unlikely that it was in the area unless it had an invisibility cloak. As I said before it literally appears out of nowhere I have trouble believing that no one Shepard, Reapers, or Asari did not notice it.

As for investigating James said it looked like whoever killed the scientists was gone and Shepard responds to the party to stay alert, which they did, unfortunately they weren't expecting Cerberus black magic.

James is not the wisest squadmate. and just because he warns his party to stay alert doesn't mean they do. Clearly when Vendetta was unearthed, Shepard was too busy trying to find the Catalyst instead of staying alert. Other party combos do not have Shepard saying to "stay alert".

Shepards mistake is that he decided to get info out of Vendetta right then and there instead of taking it to the Normandy. That's his error.

And Kai Leng does have a cloak. And look where the gunship appears, when its first shown its moving up into view, suggesting that it was hidden under the temple out of the battle.

Modifié par txgoldrush, 13 février 2014 - 08:46 .

[Nightwriter]

Stargazer scene should get honorable mention, at least.

[Barquiel]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Forced Character Stupidity: And shall we add in the Thessia mission in the temple was horribly written. I know people don't like Liara, but whose idea was it to make the PhD in Prothean Archaeology that f***ing stupid? Ashley Williams figured it out before she did. Liara is supposed to be the galaxy's foremost expert on all things Prothean, yet Ashley seems to know more. Take Ashley instead of Javik and experience the pain. Did Sylvia Feketekuty purposely write her this dumb? Or was she directed to write her this ****ing dumb? We know it didn't help out Shepard. Or was it to make Shepard look comparatively intelligent in the upcoming scenes with Kai Leng, The Illusive Man, and of course back on board the Normandy?

I think the problem is that dialogue during missions is typically done by the mission's author (for example John Dumbrow/Thessia), and not by the writer who wrote the character on the Normandy and the citadel (Sylvia Feketekuty/Liara). I guess that might be a big part of the reason why we got such nonsense...

As for Thessia, if you listened to the dialog as Shepard and our squaddies fought their way to the temple, you can feel the excitement. They are counting the war all but won, and thinking "the nightmare almost over". The idea was to get the catalyst -> activate the crucible -> destroy the reapers > start rebuilding Thessia (as Shepard tells Liara during the mission). But then the rug gets ripped out from under them. Of course they took it hard...and the scenes afterwards were beautifully done and some of the best moments of the game in my opinion. Shepard lost and in that brief moment the war efforts had been for nothing (Shep has no clue where Kai Leng went). Without the Crucible, the galactic community might as well just put their weapons down and give in to harvesting (-> "Thessia is lost"). Shepard is a winner and Thessia was the one time that she lost and when she did, she lost big. Add to this that Thessia reminded her of what happened to Earth and how the war was already grinding on her mind...I think it's pretty easy to see how you'd feel absolutely hopeless.

Shepard is definitely not mad because we couldn't stop the reaper invasion force on Thessia at that moment. That wasn't the mission and simply not possible.

Modifié par Barquiel, 13 février 2014 - 10:53 .

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Barquiel wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Forced Character Stupidity: And shall we add in the Thessia mission in the temple was horribly written. I know people don't like Liara, but whose idea was it to make the PhD in Prothean Archaeology that f***ing stupid? Ashley Williams figured it out before she did. Liara is supposed to be the galaxy's foremost expert on all things Prothean, yet Ashley seems to know more. Take Ashley instead of Javik and experience the pain. Did Sylvia Feketekuty purposely write her this dumb? Or was she directed to write her this ****ing dumb? We know it didn't help out Shepard. Or was it to make Shepard look comparatively intelligent in the upcoming scenes with Kai Leng, The Illusive Man, and of course back on board the Normandy?

I think the problem is that dialogue during missions is typically done by the mission's author (for example John Dumbrow/Thessia), and not by the writer who wrote the character on the Normandy and the citadel (Sylvia Feketekuty/Liara). I guess that might be a big part of the reason why we got such nonsense...

As for Thessia, if you listened to the dialog as Shepard and our squaddies fought their way to the temple, you can feel the excitement. They are counting the war all but won, and thinking "the nightmare almost over". The idea was to get the catalyst -> activate the crucible -> destroy the reapers > start rebuilding Thessia (as Shepard tells Liara during the mission). But then the rug gets ripped out from under them. Of course they took it hard...and the scenes afterwards were beautifully done and some of the best moments of the game in my opinion. Shepard lost and in that brief moment the war efforts had been for nothing (Shep has no clue where Kai Leng went). Without the Crucible, the galactic community might as well just put their weapons down and give in to harvesting (-> "Thessia is lost"). Shepard is a winner and Thessia was the one time that she lost and when she did, she lost big. Add to this that Thessia reminded her of what happened to Earth and how the war was already grinding on her mind...I think it's pretty easy to see how you'd feel absolutely hopeless.

Shepard is definitely not mad because we couldn't stop the reaper invasion force on Thessia at that moment. That wasn't the mission and simply not possible.

The picture you show has dialogue that I would assume is written by a different writer. Notice it is focused on Cerberus. However, prior to that in the post-mission debriefing, and in subsequent conversations with crew except for Liara it is all about how "We lost Thessia." or "We lost Thessia because Cerberus was there."

Of course without the Catalyst they think the Crucible is a lost cause, but then all they needed to know was that it attached to the Citadel.

It was in my opinion badly written. It wasn't the way my Shepard would have acted. She would have been mad as hell. 

I'm guessing this is supposed to be Shepard's heroic Blue Screen of Death. This is followed by Shepard's 10 minute retirement, another dream, and World of Cardboard ("I'm back speech") when they decide to go after Kai Leng.

txgoldrush wrote...

With the Catalyst and the Crucible, they definitely could save the planet, or have a chance to. Sure, it would be overrun and be like Earth for a short time....but they don't lose hope in saving the planet.

With the Catalyst data gone however, they give up on the planet. That's the difference.

And really, they save the planet anyway in the end.

You're contradicting yourself. You can't save any planet without the Crucible. Why would Thessia be special? Earth was already run over, so was Palaven. IMO here was where the writers got sidetracked. While it is necessary to throw piles of dung in the way of the protagonist, you don't always have to do it. It really wouldn't have mattered if Shepard retrieved the Catalyst at Thessia. The defeat at Thessia really wasn't necessary. Shepard could have defeated Kai Leng and kept the Catalyst. They still had to complete the Crucible, and they still would have had to defeat Cerberus. But this is a video game and not a novel. And this is a comic book hero and not a novel. They have to go through the tropes. The Illusive Man was still working on co-opting the control signal. He would have been on the Citadel anyway. He could have had a plant among those scientists tell him about the Catalyst. See? But it doesn't work that way in comic books.

Modifié par sH0tgUn jUliA, 13 février 2014 - 11:52 .

[Barquiel]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

The picture you show has dialogue that I would assume is written by a different writer. Notice it is focused on Cerberus. However, prior to that in the post-mission debriefing, and in subsequent conversations with crew except for Liara it is all about how "We lost Thessia." or "We lost Thessia because Cerberus was there."

Of course without the Catalyst they think the Crucible is a lost cause, but then all they needed to know was that it attached to the Citadel.

It was in my opinion badly written. It wasn't the way my Shepard would have acted. She would have been mad as hell. 

I'm guessing this is supposed to be Shepard's heroic Blue Screen of Death. This is followed by Shepard's 10 minute retirement, another dream, and World of Cardboard ("I'm back speech") when they decide to go after Kai Leng.

Maybe. I guess John Dumbrow also wrote the mission debriefing for Thessia and Sylvia wrote Liara's scene.

The catalyst arc is pretty stupid anyway. The best asari/human/salarian scientists and engineers were working on the Crucible project...but we're supposed to believe that no one has noticed that you can attach the crucible to the inner side of the Citadel? We need some prothean VI to tell us? Now that is bad writing.

[George Costanza]

Nightwriter wrote...

Stargazer scene should get honorable mention, at least.

I totally forgot about that scene. Whenever I get to the end of the game I turn it off before it gets to that point. Dreadful work.

[Draining Dragon]

Those scenes at the end of Thessia and right after. Shepard mopes around like a five-year-old. The exaggerated "look at Shepard he's so sad" made the entire thing feel ridiculous and unrealistic.

If I need to choose one scene, I would pick the scene where Joker makes the joke about Asari dancers. I thought it was funny, and I would have picked a dialogue option to say so, but the only options forced me to be a jerk.

[themikefest]

Draining Dragon wrote...

Those scenes at the end of Thessia and right after. Shepard mopes around like a five-year-old. The exaggerated "look at Shepard he's so sad" made the entire thing feel ridiculous and unrealistic.

If I need to choose one scene, I would pick the scene where Joker makes the joke about Asari dancers. I thought it was funny, and I would have picked a dialogue option to say so, but the only options forced me to be a jerk.

I thought the joke was fine. I wanted the option for femshep to tell a joke as well. I've only did that scene once. Now when I gain control of femshep I ignore talking with Anderson and everyone else and go to the galaxy map to head to the next mission.

[congokong]

elrofrost wrote...

RangerSG wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

@txgoldrush:
Read my mission-by-mission review, there I have explained things in detail and have acknowledged the things that work while criticizing those that don't within the scenes mentioned. At this time, I can't be bothered to go into the details again.

Only one thing: On Thessia, Shepard acts as if Thessia could've been saved if he had acted differently. That's a load of crap that makes no sense at all. It is forced drama.

No, I saw it...sorry, but you are trying to criticize ME3 because it isn't what you want it to be, not because of what it is. Most of you criticizing many aspects of the game simply do not see why Bioware made the choices they did.

"I should've known" that Cerberus was there? "Not good enough"? What crazy logic is that?

The logic is, if you see scientists with their throats slit, you keep your guard up. Shepard should have taken it with him instead of trying to talk with it in the temple.

To a point, only towards ending the war much sooner. Even the scene with the asari councilor, its more about Shepard not succeeding than about saving Thessia.

Nevermind that really Shepard does NOT brood for long. The case is being way overstated here.

I'd agree with you, except  Shepard then tells Anderson, "Losing Thessia wasn't in the playbook." 

Really? The Asari did less to prepare for war than perhaps any Council species. The Asari are repeatedly said to be weak in frontal attacks, which is the 'only' way the Reapers come at you. And the Reapers have steamrolled the 2 largest Navies in the galaxy (Turian and Human) already. Earth and Palavan are burning, it takes the barking Krogan to SLOW the advance of the Reapers on Palavan. And that's seen as a 'miracle.' Countless minor race worlds have been taken.

So tell me, why was losing Thessia not in the playbook? It wasn't going to be a prime Reaper target? Look, if i was Shepard, I'd be more ticked off about losing because I missed the obvious clue (throat cut=sword=phantoms at least=Cerberus nearby). But the dialogue is more about "Oh no! Not Thessia!" It goes back to the triumph of the promotion of Liara over Shepard's own priorities. 

It *should* be about Shepard screwing up and missing what's right there. But it's not. 

That said, it isn't a long scene, and while I want to spacebar my way through that dialogue, it isn't horrific in the sense the endings and the Kai Leng 'fights' are.

Yeah I'm STILL pised about this. Especially Liara. When she makes that comment I felt like slapping the hell out of her. Like i said already my Shepard would've said, "****, Earth and Palaven have been burning for weeks!".

Also the Asari ambassador pissed me off Blaming Shepard? Are you kidding? And don't get me started on Kai Leng and his Sword of POWER.

That's true, but I rationalized it by the notion that Liara isn't as strong-willed as Garrus and Shepard who didn't flinch when their worlds were burning. Remember Liara in ME1? Her mentality back then was the least prepared for everything that has happened to her. She's hardened a bit from the war and losing Shepard/hunting the Broker, but it's also noticeably worn her down more than the others. She has a consistent melancholy attitude and losing Thessia was more than she could handle. Liara overcomes it though. I liked the fact that she broke down a bit. If she becomes too stolid she'd be like Javik.

[MadCat221]

Any scene in ME3 with Kai Lame. It's like he knows he has Plot Armor, and it's infuriating how stupid the heroes become around him to facilitate the contrivance that he's a "major threat", even in his death scene.

Why did Thane not have his gun activated to begin with?  Kai Lame should have been killed mid-sentence.  "No... now it's fu*BANG*"

Why did Shepard have to open the hatch to shoot at Kai Lame's literal plot armor?  Slam the brakes, spin the sky car, let inertia or centrifugal force do the work for you.

How did Kai Lame go from being beaten like a little b&@#$ at Thessia to suddenly "I win!"

Why did Shepard not double-tap him while he laid in a heap on the floor after the Cronus Station boss fight?  What was so important about that data that Shepard couldn't ensure that the threat was permanently neutralized with a quick two shots to the head?  Shepard's a Space Navy SEAL, he/she should know better!  THIS is the ending I wanted for Kai Lame; two shots the head and then completely forget he exists.

The primary condition I had when considering whether or not to get Omega DLC was if he was in it or not.  It had an inverse effect on my consideration.

Modifié par MadCat221, 13 février 2014 - 06:03 .

[ImaginaryMatter]

txgoldrush wrote...

James is not the wisest squadmate. and just because he warns his party to stay alert doesn't mean they do. Clearly when Vendetta was unearthed, Shepard was too busy trying to find the Catalyst instead of staying alert. Other party combos do not have Shepard saying to "stay alert".

Shepards mistake is that he decided to get info out of Vendetta right then and there instead of taking it to the Normandy. That's his error.

And Kai Leng does have a cloak. And look where the gunship appears, when its first shown its moving up into view, suggesting that it was hidden under the temple out of the battle.

So we're going with Shepard not staying alert after an instance of him commanding to stay alert. We know there wasn't actually anything lethal in the immediate area because Kai Leng and the Boss-o-copter show up later, was Shepard supposed to investigate the entire building, to count as being on the alert? Maybe as a super-elite soldier he can size up a situation without pulling out his detective hat and magnifying glass.

And during the debriefing we see Shepard say a lot of things about why he is upset, none of them include, "If only we took the data up earlier" (which probably wouldn't have worked anyway because Kai Leng would have thrown his sword at the shuttle to cut it in half or something). Are we to assume Shepard is mad because as a player we know retroactively you can download advanced alien programs into omnitools? Because I sure didn't know you could do that; I always assumed a Prothean VI was unhackable, or too large a file, or could only run off of Prothean hardware, or something like that. Did Shepard even know you could do that? If we're basing Shepard's mistakes off what he should have done the entire plot of ME3 dissolves starting with Prologue: Earth.

[von uber]

I actually dislike the post mars scene; especially the reaction to liara trying to get shep moving and focused along with the concern for the vs.
No surprise she is a bit distant after that.

[themikefest]

The scene after Mars with T'soni saying Ashley/Kaidan needs medical attention. No kidding T'soni. To bad femshep couldn't say to her 'your powers of observation proceed you T'soni. Do you have any other hidden talents that we may not be aware of?

After talking with Hackett, you get a bunch of worthless dialogue between Shepard and t'soni that add nothing. It should've been a fade-to-black immediately after talking with Hackett.

[von uber]

StreetMagic wrote...

von uber wrote...

I actually dislike the post mars scene; especially the reaction to liara trying to get shep moving and focused along with the concern for the vs.
No surprise she is a bit distant after that.

What's it play out like as a Liara romance?

I don't like it even if I'm detached from both characters.

It's bloody stupid. You get the weird reception on mars and then you behave like a complete wanker back at her (when in reality you would be much more involved with what she was saying if only in tone).
Those who say the liara romance is the best in me3 compared to the others should give it a go. The whole mars arc is a real smack in the knockers for femshep; distant liara acting like nothing has happened then you act like a spaktard back. 

[themikefest]

StreetMagic wrote...

themikefest wrote...

The scene after Mars with T'soni saying Ashley/Kaidan needs medical attention. No kidding T'soni. To bad femshep couldn't say to her 'your powers of observation proceed you T'soni. Do you have any other hidden talents that we may not be aware of?

After talking with Hackett, you get a bunch of worthless dialogue between Shepard and t'soni that add nothing. It should've been a fade-to-black immediately after talking with Hackett.

This is the kind of stuff that happens when people demand Shepard stop being an "unemotional brick" and make their pleas to the writers on Twitter.

I like unemotional bricks myself. Chuck Yeager, Charlie Bronson, Clint Eastwood, Keith Richards...

I like those guys. Clint Eastwood is my favorite

[Iakus]

StreetMagic wrote...

themikefest wrote...

The scene after Mars with T'soni saying Ashley/Kaidan needs medical attention. No kidding T'soni. To bad femshep couldn't say to her 'your powers of observation proceed you T'soni. Do you have any other hidden talents that we may not be aware of?

After talking with Hackett, you get a bunch of worthless dialogue between Shepard and t'soni that add nothing. It should've been a fade-to-black immediately after talking with Hackett.

This is the kind of stuff that happens when people demand Shepard stop being an "unemotional brick" and make their pleas to the writers on Twitter.

I like unemotional bricks myself. Chuck Yeager, Charlie Bronson, Clint Eastwood, Keith Richards...

I'm not sure ithat's entirely accurate.

I recall really liking that scene, because I'm a staunch Ash-mancer and figured that's how my Shepard would react to seeing her hurt like that.

However, I later learned Shepard reacts like that no matter what: whether you romanced the VS or not, treated them well or not.  It's always the same.  I can totally see how that would be weird.

In the end, it's not about wanting Shepard to stop being an unemotional brick:  It's about having the freedom to impart what we think is the appropriate emotional response to the situation.  Shepard could be afraid, angry, or stoic, depending on how our Shepard would regard the situation.  Instead, that chocie gets taken away from teh player at really inappropriate times.

I guess, in the end, SHepard went from being an unemotional brick to being an emotional brick.

[von uber]

Just to note that as I only play femshep (shep is a woman. . She just is!) Liara is pretty much the only real viable romance for shep over the three games in my opinion. Which is why I notice the disconnect. 

Modifié par von uber, 13 février 2014 - 07:53 .