1765 réponses à ce sujet

[Barquiel]

congokong wrote...

That's true, but I rationalized it by the notion that Liara isn't as strong-willed as Garrus and Shepard who didn't flinch when their worlds were burning. Remember Liara in ME1? Her mentality back then was the least prepared for everything that has happened to her. She's hardened a bit from the war and losing Shepard/hunting the Broker, but it's also noticeably worn her down more than the others. She has a consistent melancholy attitude and losing Thessia was more than she could handle. Liara overcomes it though. I liked the fact that she broke down a bit. If she becomes too stolid she'd be like Javik.

Liara's reaction immediately after Thessia is natural (IC), more natural than some of the other's, honestly. Yes, she obviously cares a bit more more about her own species/homeworld, but so does nearly everyone else (Shepard spends the entire game crying about Earth and trying to rally support to retake it, even though it is not strategically more significant than Palaven or Thessia. Or does Tali commit suicide because billions of batarians die?). At the other extreme we've got the wooden responses of characters like Miranda ("we live in interesting times") or Traynor and her toothbrush...

Liara expresses how sorry she is to hear about earth numerous times, seems genuinly distressed about palavan, but suddenly her breaking down because the reapers conquer her own homeworld is selfish?

Modifié par Barquiel, 13 février 2014 - 07:57 .

[congokong]

A stupid post-Mars line of dialogue that makes me hate Hackett even more is as follows:

Shepard: "You can count on it, Sir."
Hackett: "It's not just me. It's everyone back on earth." (or something like that)

No **** it's not just you, Hackett! Go **** yourself. And thanks for selling out the hero of the galaxy and good judgment in speaking against Shepard joining the spectres.

[wright1978]

iakus 

I recall really liking that scene, because I'm a staunch Ash-mancer and figured that's how my Shepard would react to seeing her hurt like that.

However, I later learned Shepard reacts like that no matter what: whether you romanced the VS or not, treated them well or not.  It's always the same.  I can totally see how that would be weird.

In the end, it's not about wanting Shepard to stop being an unemotional brick:  It's about having the freedom to impart what we think is the appropriate emotional response to the situation.  Shepard could be afraid, angry, or stoic, depending on how our Shepard would regard the situation.  Instead, that chocie gets taken away from teh player at really inappropriate times.

I guess, in the end, SHepard went from being an unemotional brick to being an emotional brick.

Yeah I much preferred the unemotional brick which allowed me to overlay the appropriate emotion feeling for my character. The marketing hype told us emotion would be a choice, in reality it was a fixed hard coding that conflicted with many players Shep's.

[congokong]

von uber wrote...

Just to note that as I only play femshep (shep is a woman. . She just is!) Liara is pretty much the only real viable romance for shep over the three games in my opinion. Which is why I notice the disconnect. 

Same here. I can only get into femshep and have only romanced Liara. It just feels right to me but anyone wanting a heterosexual human relationship has very few options.

ME1:

Kaidan - He's handsome and nice, but painfully 1-dimensional. He never has come across as real to me. I can't see someone like him as intimidating. Ex: "TIM better says his prayers tonight."  Kaidan almost feels like a Disney character.

ME2:

Jacob: The only heterosexual human relationship in ME2 and he cheats on you.
Garrus: A total badass but he looks like a dinosaur.
Thane: Personally don't like the "my **** doesn't stink" attitude he portrays but that's subjective. He dies in ME3 and he looks like the Creature from the Black Lagoon.
Kelly Chambers: Doesn't really count as a LI and it's a lesbian fling.

ME3:

Traynor, Kelly, and Allers: All lesbian relationships. If you don't want that then you're out of luck.


A potentially hot Femshep savior of the galaxy only has 2 human male romance options and one of them cheats on you.

[ImaginaryMatter]

StreetMagic wrote...

This is the kind of stuff that happens when people demand Shepard stop being an "unemotional brick" and make their pleas to the writers on Twitter.

I like unemotional bricks myself. Chuck Yeager, Charlie Bronson, Clint Eastwood, Keith Richards...

Not being an emotional brick is over rated.

[congokong]

starlitegirlx wrote...

congokong wrote...

von uber wrote...

Just to note that as I only play femshep (shep is a woman. . She just is!) Liara is pretty much the only real viable romance for shep over the three games in my opinion. Which is why I notice the disconnect. 

Same here. I can only get into femshep and have only romanced Liara. It just feels right to me but anyone wanting a heterosexual human relationship has very few options.

ME1:

Kaidan - He's handsome and nice, but painfully 1-dimensional. He never has come across as real to me. I can't see someone like him as intimidating. Ex: "TIM better says his prayers tonight."  Kaidan almost feels like a Disney character.

ME2:

Jacob: The only heterosexual human relationship in ME2 and he cheats on you.
Garrus: A total badass but he looks like a dinosaur.
Thane: Personally don't like the "my **** doesn't stink" attitude he portrays but that's subjective. He dies in ME3 and he looks like the Creature from the Black Lagoon.
Kelly Chambers: Doesn't really count as a LI and it's a lesbian fling.

ME3:

Traynor, Kelly, and Allers: All lesbian relationships. If you don't want that then you're out of luck.


A potentially hot Femshep savior of the galaxy only has 2 human male romance options and one of them cheats on you.

I did try the other options and in some characters I still screw Kaidan as stress relief. But I always end up with Garrus. Dude stuck with me through thick and thin. Made me see the best in turians. Turians are my favorite race. I don't care that he's an alien. He's just awesome. Funny, bad**** and supports my shepard even when he's not 100% in agreement with her... as you see when you recruit him for me2 and say cerberus is the only one doing something about the colonies.

Kaidan might have had a chance (actually he did in older playthroughs with different role plays) if his horizon reaction didn't annoy me so much. And having to explain myself after that was always annoying. He basically sent me a dear john email in his typical leaving room for himself manner. That's not my kind of guy.

Liara never really did it for me. She does have your back, which I appreciate though. I can see how people would pick her though. I get saving her friend was a priority over my mission.

I'm sure if Garrus had his own baggage like Liara did then he wouldn't have been there in ME2. But I have to give him a lot of credit for leaving Palaven in ME3. He was a true friend (in your case LI) but he also probably realized he'd be more useful on the Normandy with Shepard and Primarch Victus.

I actually don't agree with Liara choosing to hunt the Shadow Broker (read the OP) but if Shepard really wanted to convince her to stop her obsession then Shepard could've made an effort.

The VS's behavior is unacceptable.
1.No gratitude for saving them and the colonists on Horizon
2.Nothing but short-sighted scolding for Shepard working for Cerberus
3.Wouldn't even consider ever joining Shepard on a Cerberus ship; even romanced
4.Doesn't visit Shepard in the 6 month detention on earth
5.Still doesn't give Shepard the benefit of the doubt on Mars after nearly a year and everyone else trusting Shepard
6.Requires hospital visits, gifts, and paragon responses to start trusting Shepard again

So yeah, **** the VS.

[ImaginaryMatter]

StreetMagic wrote...

ImaginaryMatter wrote...

StreetMagic wrote...

This is the kind of stuff that happens when people demand Shepard stop being an "unemotional brick" and make their pleas to the writers on Twitter.

I like unemotional bricks myself. Chuck Yeager, Charlie Bronson, Clint Eastwood, Keith Richards...

Not being an emotional brick is over rated.

Wait.. am I saying it right? Is it unemotional brick or emotional brick?

No, you're good. I'm just saying I like my action heroes stoic.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Barquiel wrote...

congokong wrote...

That's true, but I rationalized it by the notion that Liara isn't as strong-willed as Garrus and Shepard who didn't flinch when their worlds were burning. Remember Liara in ME1? Her mentality back then was the least prepared for everything that has happened to her. She's hardened a bit from the war and losing Shepard/hunting the Broker, but it's also noticeably worn her down more than the others. She has a consistent melancholy attitude and losing Thessia was more than she could handle. Liara overcomes it though. I liked the fact that she broke down a bit. If she becomes too stolid she'd be like Javik.

Liara's reaction immediately after Thessia is natural (IC), more natural than some of the other's, honestly. Yes, she obviously cares a bit more more about her own species/homeworld, but so does nearly everyone else (Shepard spends the entire game crying about Earth and trying to rally support to retake it, even though it is not strategically more significant than Palaven or Thessia. Or does Tali commit suicide because billions of batarians die?). At the other extreme we've got the wooden responses of characters like Miranda ("we live in interesting times") or Traynor and her toothbrush...

Liara expresses how sorry she is to hear about earth numerous times, seems genuinly distressed about palavan, but suddenly her breaking down because the reapers conquer her own homeworld is selfish?

Thank you for pointing out this again. Of course she's more concerned about her own people. It was natural. 

If an alien species has to choose between them and us,
they won't choose us. It is difficult to imagine a contrary case; species don't
survive by being self-sacrificing. -- The Killing Star

Garrus is more concerned about Palaven than Earth. Wrex is more concerned about Tuchanka than Earth or Palaven. The Dalatrass is more concerned about curing the genophage than the entire galaxy, yet a lot of people are more pissed at the Asari and Liara than they are about the fact that the Salarians sat on their collective asses the entire war and sent a whole 90 war assets worth of STG without permission of the Dalatrass, and an entire 25 war assets of scientists to work on the crucible while withholding the 433 total war assets that included 275 of their fleet which you get only if you don't cure the genophage, fake the genophage (Wreav), or kill Mordin.

I wonder how it would have gone over had Shepard said, "It's imperative we save Palaven!" How would that have played to the Council? Not too many people here can relate to saving a bunch of Turians, but strategically they had the strongest military. Why should we rally everyone to defend the civilization with one of the weakest militaries in the galaxy? Let's be a bit self-sacrificing about it like we're expecting everyone else to be. I don't think that would sell many games. People would question the logic. Why would my Earthborn Shepard rush to the aid of the Turians?

The reason this could never happen is that Shepard knows that Humans Are Special, and thats why we all must focus on Earth. That's because of the Human Reaper and the left overs of the Dark Energy Plot where our single 2 km long Human Reaper "Kirby Vacuum Cleaner" was supposed to suck up all the dark energy in the galaxy making it safe for everyone in the future. [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/angry.png[/smilie] It was "the bad guys are really the good guys and you're fighting them making you the bad guy."

So there you have it. Humans are special. That's why we rally around Earth.

Modifié par sH0tgUn jUliA, 13 février 2014 - 09:17 .

[von uber]

congokong wrote...

Same here. I can only get into femshep and have only romanced Liara. It just feels right to me but anyone wanting a heterosexual human relationship has very few options.

ME1:

Kaidan - He's handsome and nice, but painfully 1-dimensional. He never has come across as real to me. I can't see someone like him as intimidating. Ex: "TIM better says his prayers tonight."  Kaidan almost feels like a Disney character.

"Ugh.. no thanks Kaidan, you are just so... dull."

congokong wrote...
ME2:

Jacob: The only heterosexual human relationship in ME2 and he cheats on you.

"Yeah Jacob, I mean come on.. talk about fairly dodgy sterotypes, we all know what you are going to do in the next part."

congokong wrote...
Garrus: A total badass but he looks like a dinosaur.

"Garrus, my man.. but.. just no, it would be like nobbing my brother."

congokong wrote...
Thane: Personally don't like the "my **** doesn't stink" attitude he portrays but that's subjective. He dies in ME3 and he looks like the Creature from the Black Lagoon.

"Well Thane, I get what you are being targeted at.. but you would just end up coughing blood up on the sheets. Ick. And you keep telling me about your dead wife. I mean, come on. Now let's just go look meaningfully into the sunset."

congokong wrote...
Kelly Chambers: Doesn't really count as a LI and it's a lesbian fling.

"Um...  okaaaaayyyy.."

congokong wrote...
ME3:

Traynor, Kelly, and Allers: All lesbian relationships. If you don't want that then you're out of luck.

"Meh, I've only known you for 5 minutes."



"Where's your outfit gone?"



"Allers? Kill it with fire!"

congokong wrote...

A potentially hot Femshep savior of the galaxy only has 2 human male romance options and one of them cheats on you.

"Hmm.. I'm hot.. (although inexplicably younger looking now with a bigger bust).."



"..... oh well, only one option then. Thanks Bioware writers!"




..

...

"Helllooooo, Shepard!?"



"Sorry, not got that far on this playthrough. Besides you are ignoring me for some reason. Why, exactly?"

Modifié par von uber, 13 février 2014 - 08:47 .

[txgoldrush]

ImaginaryMatter wrote...

txgoldrush wrote...

James is not the wisest squadmate. and just because he warns his party to stay alert doesn't mean they do. Clearly when Vendetta was unearthed, Shepard was too busy trying to find the Catalyst instead of staying alert. Other party combos do not have Shepard saying to "stay alert".

Shepards mistake is that he decided to get info out of Vendetta right then and there instead of taking it to the Normandy. That's his error.

And Kai Leng does have a cloak. And look where the gunship appears, when its first shown its moving up into view, suggesting that it was hidden under the temple out of the battle.

So we're going with Shepard not staying alert after an instance of him commanding to stay alert. We know there wasn't actually anything lethal in the immediate area because Kai Leng and the Boss-o-copter show up later, was Shepard supposed to investigate the entire building, to count as being on the alert? Maybe as a super-elite soldier he can size up a situation without pulling out his detective hat and magnifying glass.

And during the debriefing we see Shepard say a lot of things about why he is upset, none of them include, "If only we took the data up earlier" (which probably wouldn't have worked anyway because Kai Leng would have thrown his sword at the shuttle to cut it in half or something). Are we to assume Shepard is mad because as a player we know retroactively you can download advanced alien programs into omnitools? Because I sure didn't know you could do that; I always assumed a Prothean VI was unhackable, or too large a file, or could only run off of Prothean hardware, or something like that. Did Shepard even know you could do that? If we're basing Shepard's mistakes off what he should have done the entire plot of ME3 dissolves starting with Prologue: Earth.

Sorry, you just want everything spoonfed to you, why does Shepard have to say how exactly he failed? Sorry but his point was, regardless of not knowing Cerberus is going to be there, he should have been prepared for anything. He wasn't and he lost. End of story.

And its far from a diabolus ex machina for Cerberus to be there. It was foreshadowed.

[congokong]

@ShotgunJulia

I actually think the salarians' are worth 150 points if you sabotage the cure. You get an additional 25 for Mordin being alive, 20 for Kirahee, and a little extra for saving the salarian councilor. At the end of my playthrough I had 265 war asset points with Councilor Valern killed in ME1.

Statistically I'm baffled by the points. The krogan can be worth 900 points in the best-case scenario. How the hell is a species living on one planet of radioactive rubble that's demilitarized worth more than 3x the salarians?

[ImaginaryMatter]

txgoldrush wrote...

Sorry, you just want everything spoonfed to you, why does Shepard have to say how exactly he failed? Sorry but his point was, regardless of not knowing Cerberus is going to be there, he should have been prepared for anything. He wasn't and he lost. End of story.

And its far from a diabolus ex machina for Cerberus to be there. It was foreshadowed.

You're assuming things about the story then getting testy with people when they don't share in your assumptions. We're not mind readers, if something isn't stated or implied how are we supposed to know about it?

How should have Shepard been prepared for Cerberus? Should he have brought his plot armor nullification device?

Modifié par ImaginaryMatter, 13 février 2014 - 09:09 .

[congokong]

starlitegirlx wrote...

congokong wrote...

starlitegirlx wrote...

I did try the other options and in some characters I still screw Kaidan as stress relief. But I always end up with Garrus. Dude stuck with me through thick and thin. Made me see the best in turians. Turians are my favorite race. I don't care that he's an alien. He's just awesome. Funny, bad**** and supports my shepard even when he's not 100% in agreement with her... as you see when you recruit him for me2 and say cerberus is the only one doing something about the colonies.

Kaidan might have had a chance (actually he did in older playthroughs with different role plays) if his horizon reaction didn't annoy me so much. And having to explain myself after that was always annoying. He basically sent me a dear john email in his typical leaving room for himself manner. That's not my kind of guy.

Liara never really did it for me. She does have your back, which I appreciate though. I can see how people would pick her though. I get saving her friend was a priority over my mission.

I'm sure if Garrus had his own baggage like Liara did then he wouldn't have been there in ME2. But I have to give him a lot of credit for leaving Palaven in ME3. He was a true friend (in your case LI) but he also probably realized he'd be more useful on the Normandy with Shepard and Primarch Victus.

I actually don't agree with Liara choosing to hunt the Shadow Broker (read the OP) but if Shepard really wanted to convince her to stop her obsession then Shepard could've made an effort.

The VS's behavior is unacceptable.
1.No gratitude for saving them and the colonists on Horizon
2.Nothing but short-sighted scolding for Shepard working for Cerberus
3.Wouldn't even consider ever joining Shepard on a Cerberus ship; even romanced
4.Doesn't visit Shepard in the 6 month detention on earth
5.Still doesn't give Shepard the benefit of the doubt on Mars after nearly a year and everyone else trusting Shepard
6.Requires hospital visits, gifts, and paragon responses to start trusting Shepard again

So yeah, **** the VS.

Garrus did have baggage. He could have spent time hunting for the traitor. Once you get him out of that mess, he could be like Liara and decide he has to do that. But he chose to come with Shepard. She needs him. She was a friend to him. He's a great loyal friend. 

I can see both sides of the Liara thing because she could have come with you like Garrus did. They could have added the LOTSB content with her on the ship. She gets a message and now you have an added mission. She didn't even need to have a loyalty mission or it could have been something simple like doing the hacks was the mission that once it was done you helped her and she joins as loyal because you did that. Would have been brilliant actually. They just didn't want her in that one. I think they clearly didn't want her to risk dying in the suicide mission. Not that she was crucial to the game after that because she really wasn't other than she was an asari contact and shadow broker, but NONE of that needed her to be part of the story. So the reason why I can agree with both sides of this is because it's clearly plot armor so she is there for ME3 because ME3 only starts with James and her. She's the one at mars. So they needed to have someone from earlier to do it rather than you meet someone on Mars who was a researcher and have the VS stay with you instead of the total contrivance injury since medigel seems to cure you from death but I guess not from getting whacked into a shuttle. I forgive Liara for not coming with you because that is really just crap writing.

The VS can be seen as a very loyal Alliance person except that both of them encourage you to break the rules and go to Ilos. That is why it never sat well with me. Crap writing. They can understand when they are in the middle of it but they can't understand when you are trying to save colonies and nobody else cares. So which was their character? Or is their character such that it changes with regards to having sex? If you don't romance them, you can see them as alliance loyals. But if you do, the whole thing changes as they are totally for breaking regs to screw you and rushing off to Ilos when you were locked down. That's some truly craptastic writing.

Garrus would never sit in an office like Liara hunting for Sidonis and he was still hunting while on the Normandy. It's how he found Sidonis. Liara made it clear she couldn't hunt the shadow broker on the Normandy. And hey, Liara did risk her life for Shepard's corpse. That gets her some loyalty points.

I think the VS would bend/break the rules after experiencing what Shepard had like they did in ME1. But in ME2 they weren't involved and only saw "Cerberus" and refused to be open-minded. It makes sense to me.

Modifié par congokong, 13 février 2014 - 09:10 .

[themikefest]

Barquiel wrote...

Liara's reaction immediately after Thessia is natural (IC), more natural than some of the other's, honestly. Yes, she obviously cares a bit more more about her own species/homeworld, but so does nearly everyone else (Shepard spends the entire game crying about Earth and trying to rally support to retake it, even though it is not strategically more significant than Palaven or Thessia. Or does Tali commit suicide because billions of batarians die?). At the other extreme we've got the wooden responses of characters like Miranda ("we live in interesting times") or Traynor and her toothbrush...

Liara expresses how sorry she is to hear about earth numerous times, seems genuinly distressed about palavan, but suddenly her breaking down because the reapers conquer her own homeworld is selfish?

Shepard maybe "crying" about Earth, but at least she is doing something about it. Gathering assets and alliances. What are the Asarti doing? Refusing to attend a summit because the councillor says "its doomed to failure" but yet I have to say I'm sorry to her after Thessia when its her that should be saying I'm sorry. I understand she and the asari are taking care of their borders, but how hard is it to send someone to the summit?. They also withold an artifact that may or may not help the war effort. Shepard helps them out by setting off the bomb at the monestary that the commandos couldn't do.

I get that T'soni is upset about Thessia being attacked, but that gives her no right to get in Javik's face and start blaming him for no reason. If anything she shoud be upset with her own government for not revealing the artifact earlier.
Of course she is also upset that no one told her about the artifact. News flash for you Liara. The galaxy doesn't revolve around you. So boo hoo hoo that no one told you about it. And boo hoo hoo that you realize that you're not the prothean expert you think you are. And of course her stupid remark about the Alliance providing air support. I wanted a renegade interrupt.to either hit her or tell her off.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

congokong wrote...

@ShotgunJulia

I actually think the salarians' are worth 150 points if you sabotage the cure. You get an additional 25 for Mordin being alive, 20 for Kirahee, and a little extra for saving the salarian councilor. At the end of my playthrough I had 265 war asset points with Councilor Valern killed in ME1.

Statistically I'm baffled by the points. The krogan can be worth 900 points in the best-case scenario. How the hell is a species living on one planet of radioactive rubble that's demilitarized worth more than 3x the salarians?

The last time I played the game was last June. I'm going off memory for the numbers. I had a Wrex play then and cured the genophage because I was after the mirror match thing, and got the Krogan Bug in the Armax arena and put the game away. The Krogan Bug - the Krogan characters stand in one place and don't recognize any enemies. The solution to beating it with the Krogan is to alter the stats on Garrus and Liara by giving them more hit points and armor points in the save game file. But I was on the 360 then, and now I don't care.

I'm baffled by the points, too, but ... they're Krogan. They're primitive. They're good on the ground. They're cannon fodder.

The total Salarian war assets are 433 for the best case if you save the Destiny Ascension. You must save the DA for this. http://masseffect.wi...Assets/Salarian

Modifié par sH0tgUn jUliA, 13 février 2014 - 09:12 .

[von uber]

themikefest wrote...
And of course her stupid remark about the Alliance providing air support. I wanted a renegade interrupt.to either hit her or tell her off.

She's right though. Everybody else has it...

[Steelcan]

congokong wrote...

@ShotgunJulia

I actually think the salarians' are worth 150 points if you sabotage the cure. You get an additional 25 for Mordin being alive, 20 for Kirahee, and a little extra for saving the salarian councilor. At the end of my playthrough I had 265 war asset points with Councilor Valern killed in ME1.

Statistically I'm baffled by the points. The krogan can be worth 900 points in the best-case scenario. How the hell is a species living on one planet of radioactive rubble that's demilitarized worth more than 3x the salarians?

if you get the maximum amount of Salarian war assets (ie Save the Council, Kirrahee dies on Virmire)  they are worth 343

[congokong]

What's even stranger is that killing Kirrahe is actually good for your war assets.

http://masseffect.wi...Assets/Salarian

Based on these statistics, the maximum assets for salarians is 335 compared to 900 for krogan. Right...