1765 réponses à ce sujet

[Iakus]

congokong wrote...

Most aren't fans of the Horizon treatment but it doesn't have many plotholes. It just makes the VS out to be very unsympathetic to Shepard's situation. It's why I shoot Ashley in ME3. Many will say that from the VS's perspective their behavior was justified. I don't think so but many do. Their belief that Cerberus is behind the collectors IS ridiculous.

The Illium treatment is more poorly written IMO. "Shepard, you're alive! Listen, if you want to help hack some terminals for me." "I'll talk to you later Liara." Ugh. How about you leave your desk, Liara? I can at least understand the VS's exit. They see things in black/white as Alliance = good, Cerberus = bad. It's short-sighted but believable.

See, that's where it falls apart.  What if Shepard sees Cerberus as bad too?

The VS can potentially have seen Shepard act very anti-Cerberus in the first game.  Espouse beliefs contrary to what they stand for, not to mention trashing several Cebrerus bases and killing dozens of their personel. 

And yet, they simply assume Shepard joins up with Cerberus without a really frakking good reason?  That Shepard might know something they don't?  Heck even Tali states she thought Shepard was under deep cover to sabotage Cerberus at first.

And as I pointed out upthread, Shepard doesn't even try to make a case justifying even a temporary alliance.  Doesn't tell them about Freedom's Progress and the video Veetor took (and which Tali saw as well), doesn't give the VS omnitool data, or information on Mordin's anti-Seeker technology.   Or even Cerberus intel like Shep can give Jack.

Badly, badly, badly written.  Makes huge assumptions about teh relationship between Shepard and the VS, as well as Shepard's attitudes towards Cerberus.  As I said ::assuming direct control:: 

Modifié par iakus, 04 février 2014 - 07:48 .

[themikefest]

the what-the-crap-hug on Ilium with T'soni

The whole Thessia mission from the time you're on the shuttle until you decide to go to the galaxy map to do another mission

the what-the-crap evac scene

the Leviathan turd

[Jorji Costava]

Beyond what's already been mentioned, I'd probably go with the Reaper larvae scenes from ME2 myself. "Not just any Reaper . . . a human Reaper." Pretty cringe-inducing stuff.

[themikefest]

StreetMagic wrote...

themikefest wrote...

the what-the-crap-hug on Ilium with T'soni

The whole Thessia mission from the time you're on the shuttle until you decide to go to the galaxy map to do another mission

the what-the-crap evac scene

the Leviathan turd

Leviathan turd? What's that?

What bioware calls the Catalyst

[roryw2203]

congokong wrote...

roryw2203 wrote...

congokong wrote...

You need to consider that the most poorly written scene should have plotholes; not just bad writing. For example Miranda's first ME3 scene may have the stupid "we live in interesting times" line but there aren't any things that don't make sense that I know of.

That's why the Illium Liara encounter is so bad. It's plagued with plotholes. Another plothole is why Shepard even needs Liara's help finding Samara and Thane when they're on the damn news?!

Hmmm.  I don't think plotholes necessarily imply bad writing.  At a certain point when creating a story you need to decide whether the emotional implications/reactions to a scene outweigh the need for entire logical sense.

Plotholes only exist because of bad writing. I'm not suggesting a character has to be logical. For example I think the Horizon treatment could happen if this was real if the VS is a short-sighted patriot. However, I can never picture the Illium treatment's dialogue happening. Not only is the dialogue bad but there are plotholes that I mentioned in the OP.

Not necessarliy.  Again, if you have to decide between emotional impact with a minor plothole or two; or completely emotionally sterile with complete logical sense, then it's just a matter of the kind of story you want to tell.

The ME trilogy is riddled with plot holes, but you can overlook them because of the personal investment.

Deus Ex:Human Revolution is pretty sterile emotionally, but makes sense pretty much the entire way through.

Two great games/series.  Two different ways of story telling.

When there are nothing but plotholes in a scene, then yeah it's bad writing.  And I agree, the Ilium scene is swiss f****n' cheese.

[ImaginaryMatter]

StreetMagic wrote...

themikefest wrote...

the what-the-crap-hug on Ilium with T'soni

The whole Thessia mission from the time you're on the shuttle until you decide to go to the galaxy map to do another mission

the what-the-crap evac scene

the Leviathan turd

Leviathan turd? What's that?

I think it's the fact that the Leviathan story suffered from trying to retroactively justify the Catalyst.

[Invisible Man]

just one? no, I can't go with just one. not counting me3's ending... um, me2 horizon, liara/illium, parts of the shadowbroker dlc, those were the biggies for me with me2, as for me3, the intro definitely, some of the convos on mars, most of what went on in the citadel dlc (I couldn't have been the only one who pegged brooks as a fraud as soon as she opened her mouth at the sushi place), the dream scenes (they could have done so much with those, but they chose not to), anything to do with kai lang, that's just off the top of my head. but IMHO, that me3 ending tops everything else.

[Dean_the_Young]

In the trilogy as a whole? I thought the final confrontation with the Illusive Man was a personal annoyance. It wasn't aiming to be vague or ambiguous, and it pretty much threw away everything that had previously defined the character: poise, control, and some semblance of coherence. It could have been worse if they went with the TIM-husk idea, but it was still painful.

For each game on its own merits, though?

ME1 has the Genophage topic with Wrex. That's a conversation that only works once for new players, and is cringe worthy afterwards. Similar experience for Liara and Asari reproduction.

ME2 has Shepard's motivational speechs before and during the suicide mission. I'm not a fan of those myself, so I do what I do when subjected in real life: tune out and distract myself. For similar reasons I get eye-rolls when NPCs play up Shepard's alleged leadership ability (uh...) and how the companions were the best of the best (uh, yeah, right) and especially how this was preparation or a Suicide Mission (Guys, can we make a plan? Why aren't we sending in drones?).

Come ME3, I cry a little inside with TIM, like I said. With the EC, the entire evac scene is a case of 'why can't I skip forward faster!?!?!?!'


I also want to call out to a very special category of 'dialogue linking the games that makes me cry.' The sort of carry-over that just hurts.

In ME2, it was Al-Jilani. Few people remember that Renegades could have a completely professional, intelligent, and measured conversation with her. She asked fair questions, and could be given fair answers and end with a good note. Admiral Hackett even compliments you on your composure, and Renegades can even get her on their side.

And then ME2 just goes degenerates her into 'always hostile hack reporter', where beating her physically or verbally is supposed to be comical. Then again in ME3, you either are Paragon make nice, beat her for laughs, or... just nothing.


Wrex in ME3 is the one that makes me cry inside, though, since his dialogue abandons everything that made him promising in ME2 and regresses his politics. Wrex, I get you're angry about me destroying the genophage cure data, but have you forgotten exactly how you're enforcing your reforms on everyone?

[congokong]

iakus wrote...

congokong wrote...

Most aren't fans of the Horizon treatment but it doesn't have many plotholes. It just makes the VS out to be very unsympathetic to Shepard's situation. It's why I shoot Ashley in ME3. Many will say that from the VS's perspective their behavior was justified. I don't think so but many do. Their belief that Cerberus is behind the collectors IS ridiculous.

The Illium treatment is more poorly written IMO. "Shepard, you're alive! Listen, if you want to help hack some terminals for me." "I'll talk to you later Liara." Ugh. How about you leave your desk, Liara? I can at least understand the VS's exit. They see things in black/white as Alliance = good, Cerberus = bad. It's short-sighted but believable.

See, that's where it falls apart.  What if Shepard sees Cerberus as bad too?

The VS can potentially have seen Shepard act very anti-Cerberus in the first game.  Espouse beliefs contrary to what they stand for, not to mention trashing several Cebrerus bases and killing dozens of their personel. 

And yet, they simply assume Shepard joins up with Cerberus without a really frakking good reason?  That Shepard might know something they don't?  Heck even Tali states she thought Shepard was under deep cover to sabotage Cerberus at first.

And as I pointed out upthread, Shepard doesn't even try to make a case justifying even a temporary alliance.  Doesn't tell them about Freedom's Progress and the video Veetor took (and which Tali saw as well), doesn't give the VS omnitool data, or information on Mordin's anti-Seeker technology.   Or even Cerberus intel like Shep can give Jack.

Badly, badly, badly written.  Makes huge assumptions about teh relationship between Shepard and the VS, as well as Shepard's attitudes towards Cerberus.  As I said ::assuming direct control:: 

Ash/Kaidan don't assume Shepard just joined up. They don't know what happened; if Shepard joined, was ressurrected, or was brought back but under Cerberus' control.

Shepard sees Cerberus as bad possibly too but we can only role-play Shepard to a certain point. The game makes Shepard decide that working with Cerberus is the right thing to do because they brought Shepard back and are the only ones doing anything about the colonies. Would Ash/Kaidan do the same were they put in Shepard's position? We don't know but it's easy to understand their Horizon reaction from their short-sighted point of view.

Why would Ashley need proof of the collectors? They were just there! And how do you figure Shepard has omnitool data on her? The seeker swarm counter measure is implied by the fact that Shepard saved the colony. Some of these ways to convince Ash would be things I wouldn't even consider saying. I'd have said pretty much what Shepard did. I'd explain my ressurection, point and say "You saw it yourself. The collectors are attacking human colonies and they're working with the reapers." The proof is right there in Ash/Kaidan's face but they don't trust Cerberus. Sadly, many people have a very limited view. It's realistic.

[wright1978]

We'll yes there's the catalyst scene at the top of the bunch.

Then there's the intro scene with the defence council.

The EC Normandy pick up scene is also rather laughable.

[congokong]

roryw2203 wrote...

congokong wrote...

roryw2203 wrote...

congokong wrote...

You need to consider that the most poorly written scene should have plotholes; not just bad writing. For example Miranda's first ME3 scene may have the stupid "we live in interesting times" line but there aren't any things that don't make sense that I know of.

That's why the Illium Liara encounter is so bad. It's plagued with plotholes. Another plothole is why Shepard even needs Liara's help finding Samara and Thane when they're on the damn news?!

Hmmm.  I don't think plotholes necessarily imply bad writing.  At a certain point when creating a story you need to decide whether the emotional implications/reactions to a scene outweigh the need for entire logical sense.

Plotholes only exist because of bad writing. I'm not suggesting a character has to be logical. For example I think the Horizon treatment could happen if this was real if the VS is a short-sighted patriot. However, I can never picture the Illium treatment's dialogue happening. Not only is the dialogue bad but there are plotholes that I mentioned in the OP.

Not necessarliy.  Again, if you have to decide between emotional impact with a minor plothole or two; or completely emotionally sterile with complete logical sense, then it's just a matter of the kind of story you want to tell.

The ME trilogy is riddled with plot holes, but you can overlook them because of the personal investment.

Deus Ex:Human Revolution is pretty sterile emotionally, but makes sense pretty much the entire way through.

Two great games/series.  Two different ways of story telling.

When there are nothing but plotholes in a scene, then yeah it's bad writing.  And I agree, the Ilium scene is swiss f****n' cheese.

Ideally the best story has emotional impact and no plotholes. Few stories achieve this but that should be the goal. ME has many plotholes but this topic is about which scene is the worst. The worst scene has to have all prerequisites for poor writing (because it's the worst) including bad dialogue and plotholes; not just bad dialogue. The worst should have you lean back and say "This would never happen."

[Barquiel]

congokong wrote...

roryw2203 wrote...

congokong wrote...

You need to consider that the most poorly written scene should have plotholes; not just bad writing. For example Miranda's first ME3 scene may have the stupid "we live in interesting times" line but there aren't any things that don't make sense that I know of.

That's why the Illium Liara encounter is so bad. It's plagued with plotholes. Another plothole is why Shepard even needs Liara's help finding Samara and Thane when they're on the damn news?!

Hmmm.  I don't think plotholes necessarily imply bad writing.  At a certain point when creating a story you need to decide whether the emotional implications/reactions to a scene outweigh the need for entire logical sense.

Plotholes only exist because of bad writing. I'm not suggesting a character has to be logical. For example I think the Horizon treatment could happen if this was real if the VS is a short-sighted patriot. However, I can never picture the Illium treatment's dialogue happening. Not only is the dialogue bad but there are plotholes that I mentioned in the OP.

Liara's scene on Illium isn't exactly great writing (far from it), but it's no plothole. Feron sacrificed himself so that Liara could save Shepard's body. I think that she simply wanted to return the favor and save the man who had done so much for her...without Feron, Liara would've never gotten Shepard back.

As for poorly written scenes...I won't sacrifice soul species, everything about the Catalyst, everything about the Vendetta VI, Horizon, the council in ME2 ("The Council also owes you a great personal debt Commander, one we can never repay. You saved not just our lives but the lives of billions from Sovereign and the Reapers" -> "ah yes, reapers") and many more dumb lines by Shepard and her squadmates (asari reproduction, Wrex and the genophage, Traynor's awkward hot tub scene, Jacob/FemShep flirting in ME2, we live in interesting times, Liara's "more than friends" line,...). I sometimes wonder how the same writers who created fantastic scenes like the conversation with Vigil, Liara's time capsule and the Rannoch/Tuchanka missions also wrote so much nonsense.

Modifié par Barquiel, 04 février 2014 - 08:14 .

[shodiswe]

Priority Earth Turret defence sequence...(Absolutely pointless setup with no goal or consequences)... If that counts.

Priority Earth after you leave the FOB and onward is pretty uninspired aswell, especialy for an endgame mission. The Collectorbase final mission for ME2 was a lot better imo and that was described as a much smaller operation, fewer varaible, but it still had lots of variables than Priority Earth had next to no variables in it. War asset representation and impact to that mission was non-existant. Storywise it was kind of bland aswell. Talking to some of the people at the FOB was the best part of priority earth and it still feelt kind of like a very forced goodbye. Still it was the better part of that mission.

Modifié par shodiswe, 04 février 2014 - 08:15 .

[congokong]

StreetMagic wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

In ME2, it was Al-Jilani. Few people remember that Renegades could have a completely professional, intelligent, and measured conversation with her. She asked fair questions, and could be given fair answers and end with a good note. Admiral Hackett even compliments you on your composure, and Renegades can even get her on their side.

Al-Jilani is like one my "moral compasses". Heh. I like being nice to her. She's human centric, but I think less antagnostic than she's given credit for. Whatever her schtick is in each game, I tend to side with (ME1: Don't be a Council stooge/ ME2: Not much to say there, but her agenda seems a little more open about galactic cooperation/ ME3: Don't let the Council forget about Earth).

It's funny hearing how pleasant her interview is with Anderson in the Citadel DLC.

Any Shepard I play with a short temper slugs her every time, but she only debatably deserves a fist in ME3. She becomes blatantly insensitive and insulting.

[congokong]

Barquiel wrote...

congokong wrote...

roryw2203 wrote...

congokong wrote...

You need to consider that the most poorly written scene should have plotholes; not just bad writing. For example Miranda's first ME3 scene may have the stupid "we live in interesting times" line but there aren't any things that don't make sense that I know of.

That's why the Illium Liara encounter is so bad. It's plagued with plotholes. Another plothole is why Shepard even needs Liara's help finding Samara and Thane when they're on the damn news?!

Hmmm.  I don't think plotholes necessarily imply bad writing.  At a certain point when creating a story you need to decide whether the emotional implications/reactions to a scene outweigh the need for entire logical sense.

Plotholes only exist because of bad writing. I'm not suggesting a character has to be logical. For example I think the Horizon treatment could happen if this was real if the VS is a short-sighted patriot. However, I can never picture the Illium treatment's dialogue happening. Not only is the dialogue bad but there are plotholes that I mentioned in the OP.

Liara's scene on Illium isn't exactly great writing (far from it), but it's no plothole. Feron sacrificed himself so that Liara could save Shepard's body. I think that she simply wanted to return the favor and save the man who had done so much for her...without Feron, Liara would've never gotten Shepard back.

Did you not read the OP? The plothole isn't that she became obsessed with revenge. It's all the points I mentioned.

[Mcfly616]

I'm absolutely sure there is worse....but at the moment off the top of my head all I can think of is "STEEEEEEEEEVE!.....you sure?"

[congokong]

StreetMagic wrote...

congokong wrote...

StreetMagic wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

In ME2, it was Al-Jilani. Few people remember that Renegades could have a completely professional, intelligent, and measured conversation with her. She asked fair questions, and could be given fair answers and end with a good note. Admiral Hackett even compliments you on your composure, and Renegades can even get her on their side.

Al-Jilani is like one my "moral compasses". Heh. I like being nice to her. She's human centric, but I think less antagnostic than she's given credit for. Whatever her schtick is in each game, I tend to side with (ME1: Don't be a Council stooge/ ME2: Not much to say there, but her agenda seems a little more open about galactic cooperation/ ME3: Don't let the Council forget about Earth).

It's funny hearing how pleasant her interview is with Anderson in the Citadel DLC.

Any Shepard I play with a short temper slugs her every time, but she only debatably deserves a fist in ME3. She becomes blatantly insensitive and insulting.

ME3? I think that's where she least deserves it. I think she's just scared and anxious.

She might be most sympathetic in ME3 but she's also the least professional. Shepard had to just leave earth after hearing people screaming in the streets below and she provokes him/her about "running away." It's very feasible to picture Shepard not being in the mood to understand her behavior but rather respond to it violently.

[Dean_the_Young]

StreetMagic wrote...

congokong wrote...

StreetMagic wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

In ME2, it was Al-Jilani. Few people remember that Renegades could have a completely professional, intelligent, and measured conversation with her. She asked fair questions, and could be given fair answers and end with a good note. Admiral Hackett even compliments you on your composure, and Renegades can even get her on their side.

Al-Jilani is like one my "moral compasses". Heh. I like being nice to her. She's human centric, but I think less antagnostic than she's given credit for. Whatever her schtick is in each game, I tend to side with (ME1: Don't be a Council stooge/ ME2: Not much to say there, but her agenda seems a little more open about galactic cooperation/ ME3: Don't let the Council forget about Earth).

It's funny hearing how pleasant her interview is with Anderson in the Citadel DLC.

Any Shepard I play with a short temper slugs her every time, but she only debatably deserves a fist in ME3. She becomes blatantly insensitive and insulting.

ME3? I think that's where she least deserves it. I think she's just scared and anxious.

My disappointment in ME3 is that there's no appropriate Renegade dialogue response to her. Paragon is sympathetic, and works well for it, but I feel there was a big miss in not having a Renegade equivalent.

It could be rude. It could be harsh. But it could definitely be tough love and that hard boot that occassionally helps people get over their sorrows, and are inspiring in their own right.

So when she cries 'how could you let this happen,' you could have a good Renegade response of 'I told you all so, and you ignored my warnings,' mixed with 'I left Earth to gain Council support for Earth,' and pressing her to use her influence to pressure the Council to do more to support Humanity.

[GimmeDaGun]

Most LI scenes, the Citadel main plot, the Suicide Mission, ME2' main plot. Cerberus's role in ME3, Kai Leng as a character, the fetch quests in ME3 etc..the fact that the trilogy wasn't planned and wrote as one big story.

[TurianRebel212]

Catalyst convo.
Meeting Liara on Mars.
The prologue of ME3
Benezia convo's on Noveria-cringe worthy but big b00bs made up for it. Almost.
Every scene with Kai Lame


But the winner is and always will be Catalyst convo.[edited by Mod03]

Modifié par BioWareMod03, 04 février 2014 - 09:40 .