I could answer that, but as I said, I don't want to derail the thread - and a Quarian/Geth debate is certain to derail the thread.
What do you think is the most poorly written scene in the ME series?
Débuté par
congokong
, févr. 04 2014 05:14
Retour en haut
#727
Posté 21 février 2014 - 01:48
Invisible Man
-
- Members
- 1 075 messages
I'm just noting that renegade in this case should be about completing the mission whatever the cost as well as perhaps self preservation, and paragons should be about minimizing collateral damage... it just seemed to me that a paragon shepard shouldn't have been happy about risking the entire qurian race to down a single dreadnaught, and a renegade should have been less concerned with potential civilian casualties and maybe or maybe not a bit more with his/her personal survival.
#728
Posté 21 février 2014 - 01:55
DeinonSlayer
-
- Members
- 8 441 messages
The way I see it, retreat was never a viable option in the first place - the codex tells us it takes days for their fleet to traverse a single relay, and even if they had that kind of time, leaving would have simply meant the Geth would stay under Reaper control. Every Geth on the dreadnought was still hostile after the Reaper broadcast was shut down - they're shooting at you after freeing Legion; they'd be working on repairs. When the drive core goes back up, shields, engines and weapons would come back up with it and the dreadnought would go right back to tearing into your only allies in the system. By destroying the dreadnought during the window while its barriers were down, Gerrel eliminated the single biggest threat to the fleet and ensured the broadcast allowing long-range Reaper control of the Geth could not come back online; hence he did the right thing.Invisible Man wrote...
I'm just noting that renegade in this case should be about completing the mission whatever the cost as well as perhaps self preservation, and paragons should be about minimizing collateral damage... it just seemed to me that a paragon shepard shouldn't have been happy about risking the entire qurian race to down a single dreadnaught, and a renegade should have been less concerned with potential civilian casualties and maybe or maybe not a bit more with his/her personal survival.
There's multiple ways to look at the situation; that's just how I see it.
#729
Posté 21 février 2014 - 01:59
eyezonlyii
-
- Members
- 1 715 messages
Oh no...derail commenced...and I apologize...DeinonSlayer wrote...
The way I see it, retreat was never a viable option in the first place - the codex tells us it takes days for their fleet to traverse a single relay, and even if they had that kind of time, leaving would have simply meant the Geth would stay under Reaper control. Every Geth on the dreadnought was still hostile after the Reaper broadcast was shut down - they're shooting at you after freeing Legion; they'd be working on repairs. When the drive core goes back up, shields, engines and weapons would come back up with it and the dreadnought would go right back to tearing into your only allies in the system. By destroying the dreadnought during the window while its barriers were down, Gerrel eliminated the single biggest threat to the fleet and ensured the broadcast allowing long-range Reaper control of the Geth could not come back online; hence he did the right thing.Invisible Man wrote...
I'm just noting that renegade in this case should be about completing the mission whatever the cost as well as perhaps self preservation, and paragons should be about minimizing collateral damage... it just seemed to me that a paragon shepard shouldn't have been happy about risking the entire qurian race to down a single dreadnaught, and a renegade should have been less concerned with potential civilian casualties and maybe or maybe not a bit more with his/her personal survival.
There's multiple ways to look at the situation; that's just how I see it.
But since the Reaper signal was shut down, doesn't that mean the Geth were working at less capacity? Or is that only after you do the main ground mission. If the former, then Gerrel could have waited just a minute or two more. At least until he got confirmation on whether Shep and crew could evacuate soon. If it's the later, then I will humbly sit down and shut my face.
Modifié par eyezonlyii, 21 février 2014 - 02:00 .
#730
Posté 21 février 2014 - 02:01
DeinonSlayer
-
- Members
- 8 441 messages
The signal was no longer being broadcast from the dreadnought to other ships in the fleet, meaning the ships were uncoordinated, but the fact that the geth on board the dreadnought itself were still shooting at you tells me they were still under Reaper control.
As Shepard says in the paragon option, "you did the right thing. Just give me a heads-up next time."
I really don't want to derail the thread, just thought I'd elaborate.
As Shepard says in the paragon option, "you did the right thing. Just give me a heads-up next time."
I really don't want to derail the thread, just thought I'd elaborate.
Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 21 février 2014 - 02:03 .
#731
Posté 21 février 2014 - 02:10
Invisible Man
-
- Members
- 1 075 messages
DeinonSlayer wrote...
The signal was no longer being broadcast from the dreadnought to other ships in the fleet, meaning the ships were uncoordinated, but the fact that the geth on board the dreadnought itself were still shooting at you tells me they were still under Reaper control.
As Shepard says in the paragon option, "you did the right thing. Just give me a heads-up next time."
I really don't want to derail the thread, just thought I'd elaborate.
lets not get into a geth war debate here. I guess we just have to agree to disagree, or perhaps watch the thread get locked.
#732
Guest_starlitegirlx_*
Posté 21 février 2014 - 02:14
Guest_starlitegirlx_*
Guest_starlitegirlx_*
-
- Guests
Invisible Man wrote...
ImaginaryMatter wrote...
AlexMBrennan wrote...
Obviously the quarians aren't using their big guns - if they were, concentrated fire from an entire fleet could easily overwhelm a single reaper's kinetic barriers and no targeting of weak spots would be necessary.
All the enemy ships in the Rannoch arch have the Mark IV Randanium Plot Armor plating their hulls.
minus the lifeships the bulk of the qurian's warships are frigates & carriers (I counted the lifeships as they've been armed)
a reaper of that size (a destroyer) needs at least cruiser sized firepower to counter (according to the codex). and we only have a few minutes (at best) between when shepard orders the fleets to fire & when the bombardment commences, the bulk of the qurian fleet might not have been able to position it's vessels to bombard a very small grid on the planet's surface. hence, why the entire fleet isn't shooting the reaper, and why it takes several rounds of punishment before taking lethal damage.
there is one more point near that part of the story that I think is poor writing. when you do the geth dreadnaught mission and the qurian fleet fires on it, the paragon response to the post-mission convo is you made the right call, but the renegade one is you put your whole race in the line of fire to destroy a geth dreadnaught. doesn't that seem rather backwards to anyone else, or is it just me?
There are many cases where the paragon renagade options seem reversed but you have to look at the intent. If you do renegade enough you notice it is all about shepard staying focused on the mission, on destroying the reapers, destroying the geth attacking the quarians, telling the quarian off for putting them in joepardy, etc.
It's a pretty hardcore 'we'll get it done' attitude. And if you notice at the end, with the chocies, renegade is the one that gets the job done as in destroying the reapers while the rest are not getting that original mission done which is the one thing that shepard wants done. Saving the geth is paragon wanting to save everyone. Renegade shep knows everyone cannot be saved, the reapers have to be destroyed. It's a tough call but someone has to make it. Renegade shep is pissed when a quarian takes actions that are reckless and could kill people who just tried to save their idiot asses.
Now if you extrapolate from that.... it's okay to blow up the ship with shepard on it (paragon) and cost shep's crew their lives because the quarian wanted to destroy that ship. One person's choice outweighs the balance of everyone else who thought that was over the top. This is reflected in the final choice as well. Renegade would be doing what the galaxy rallied behind you to do. DESTROY. Anything else, which is wanting to save everyone is paragon. Paragon wants to save everyone. Paragon probably picks control or synthesis. Paragon is okay with the quarian almost killing them and will talk about how it's hard, or it's wearing them down. Paragon is not as focused. Paragon is very worn. Paragon doesn't like making the tough choices. It's actually very well done. It seems different because you might disagree with that instance, but throughout the game, it is consistent. That is one thing they did get right. Paragon even tries to save Illusive man which gets him to kill himself. Renegade knows he's a liability to the objective and call him on it then guns him down with no remorse.
Modifié par starlitegirlx, 21 février 2014 - 02:15 .
#733
Posté 21 février 2014 - 03:31
congokong
-
- Members
- 2 014 messages
I will note that a similar situation occured in ME2 after TIM sent you as bait to a collector ship. Once back and Mordin validates TIM's actions the paragon response is "I agree" while renegade is "I still don't like it." It's similar to the "I agree" and "You're out of control" responses to Gerrel after he almost kills you. And later Joker asks if Shepard's ok with Gerrel's actions and paragon is "No" while renegade is "I'm keeping it professional." That's screwy.
On the one hand renegade is about getting the job done and practicality. On the other it represents anything aggressive. So in these cases paragon/renegade can go either way. You occasionally see it as well in ME2 when a paragon interrupt resulted in a punch to Zaeed or pistol whip to Gavin Archer. I think only a renegade interrupt should involve violence even if it's for paragon intentions.
I guess the lesson here is that the line between paragon and renegade isn't always clear. And since they don't represent right/wrong it doesn't matter unless you want to be 100% one or the other.
On the one hand renegade is about getting the job done and practicality. On the other it represents anything aggressive. So in these cases paragon/renegade can go either way. You occasionally see it as well in ME2 when a paragon interrupt resulted in a punch to Zaeed or pistol whip to Gavin Archer. I think only a renegade interrupt should involve violence even if it's for paragon intentions.
I guess the lesson here is that the line between paragon and renegade isn't always clear. And since they don't represent right/wrong it doesn't matter unless you want to be 100% one or the other.
Modifié par congokong, 21 février 2014 - 03:39 .
#734
Posté 21 février 2014 - 10:06
AlexMBrennan
-
- Members
- 7 002 messages
Well, you are wrong then. ME codex makes it absolutely clear that engagements in open space are always indecisive skirmishes unless the enemy can threaten to bombard one of our planets or space stations.The way I see it, retreat was never a viable option in the first place - the codex tells us it takes days for their fleet to traverse a single relay, and even if they had that kind of time, leaving would have simply meant the Geth would stay under Reaper control
And the time to traverse a relay is irrelevant because the moment the quarian captain hits the FTL button his ship become impossible to hit or even track.
This, admittedly, would make for terrible space combat but that's not exactly news.
#735
Posté 21 février 2014 - 10:44
Invisible Man
-
- Members
- 1 075 messages
there have been interesting posts on this topic in this thread, and they have been somewhat convincing. though I still don't see a paragon shepard supporting the bum's rush on the geth dreadnaught. but as I think this isn't the place for this particular conversation, i'll stop here. and there have been other threads involving the geth conflict, so I don't really see a point to creating a new one.
#736
Posté 21 février 2014 - 01:08
von uber
-
- Members
- 5 526 messages
Rather than create a new topic. thought I'd post it here:
How would the intro have been if instead of seeing the child get blown up, it was Anderson't shuttle?
How would the intro have been if instead of seeing the child get blown up, it was Anderson't shuttle?
#737
Posté 21 février 2014 - 01:14
themikefest
-
- Members
- 21 630 messages
The opening scene in ME2 with Joker saying "brace for evasive maneuvers" he moves the ship to his right and then into the beam to his left.
#738
Posté 21 février 2014 - 06:55
Bad King
-
- Members
- 3 133 messages
Cerberus attacking Sur'Kesh and the Citadel.
#739
Posté 21 février 2014 - 06:59
Tyrannosaurus Rex
-
- Members
- 10 793 messages
Bad King wrote...
Cerberus attacking Sur'Kesh and the Citadel.
I love how the characters asks why Cerberus would do these things yet the game never bothers to explain it, Shepard even wovs to find out the reason behind the coup yet never does so.
Truly some of the worst missions of the franchise.
#740
Posté 21 février 2014 - 07:52
Iakus
-
- Members
- 30 410 messages
But...but...the shooting!Lizardviking wrote...
Bad King wrote...
Cerberus attacking Sur'Kesh and the Citadel.
I love how the characters asks why Cerberus would do these things yet the game never bothers to explain it, Shepard even wovs to find out the reason behind the coup yet never does so.
Truly some of the worst missions of the franchise.
The guns!
When you push a button, awesome stuff happens!
If you want a story that makes sense, you're just being an entitled whiner! <_<
#741
Posté 21 février 2014 - 07:58
CronoDragoon
-
- Members
- 10 413 messages
DeinonSlayer wrote...
The signal was no longer being broadcast from the dreadnought to other ships in the fleet, meaning the ships were uncoordinated, but the fact that the geth on board the dreadnought itself were still shooting at you tells me they were still under Reaper control.
As Shepard says in the paragon option, "you did the right thing. Just give me a heads-up next time."
I really don't want to derail the thread, just thought I'd elaborate.
I'd have to agree. We know from ME2 that Gherrel cares about Tali (and by extension he must respect Shepard), so it's not because he's just a dick. He legitimately saw a chance for a significant strategic advantage and took it. But like Shepard said....maybe wait 5 minutes for them to escape next time.
#742
Posté 21 février 2014 - 07:58
von uber
-
- Members
- 5 526 messages
Cerberus attacking Sur'Kesh really makes no sense whatsoever.
#743
Posté 21 février 2014 - 08:00
CronoDragoon
-
- Members
- 10 413 messages
No reason for a humans-first organization to capture a female who is the key to reviving krogan dominance in the galaxy? What am I missing?von uber wrote...
Cerberus attacking Sur'Kesh really makes no sense whatsoever.
#744
Guest_StreetMagic_*
Posté 21 février 2014 - 08:01
Guest_StreetMagic_*
Guest_StreetMagic_*
-
- Guests
congokong wrote...
I will note that a similar situation occured in ME2 after TIM sent you as bait to a collector ship. Once back and Mordin validates TIM's actions the paragon response is "I agree" while renegade is "I still don't like it." It's similar to the "I agree" and "You're out of control" responses to Gerrel after he almost kills you. And later Joker asks if Shepard's ok with Gerrel's actions and paragon is "No" while renegade is "I'm keeping it professional." That's screwy.
On the one hand renegade is about getting the job done and practicality. On the other it represents anything aggressive. So in these cases paragon/renegade can go either way. You occasionally see it as well in ME2 when a paragon interrupt resulted in a punch to Zaeed or pistol whip to Gavin Archer. I think only a renegade interrupt should involve violence even if it's for paragon intentions.
I guess the lesson here is that the line between paragon and renegade isn't always clear. And since they don't represent right/wrong it doesn't matter unless you want to be 100% one or the other.
Yeah, the binary system is too limiting. I think it needed something similar to D&D. Paragon/Renegade, and then Chaotic/Order.
I heard Weekes talking about wanting something more indepth in DAI (Weekes also was in charge of ME's morality.. not sure to what extent though).
#745
Posté 21 février 2014 - 08:04
Iakus
-
- Members
- 30 410 messages
CronoDragoon wrote...
No reason for a humans-first organization to capture a female who is the key to reviving krogan dominance in the galaxy? What am I missing?von uber wrote...
Cerberus attacking Sur'Kesh really makes no sense whatsoever.
The kilometer-long sentient dreadnoughts invading the galaxy?
#746
Posté 21 février 2014 - 08:11
CronoDragoon
-
- Members
- 10 413 messages
The ME series consistently insists that races will often miss the forest for the trees, though. That they will go for the selfish-short term option and bet it won't screw them long-term with the Reapers. Examples: Council, Cerberus, quarians, etc. Not a single Council race aids the construction of the Crucible unless Shepard scratches their back first.
#747
Guest_StreetMagic_*
Posté 21 février 2014 - 08:15
Guest_StreetMagic_*
Guest_StreetMagic_*
-
- Guests
CronoDragoon wrote...
The ME series consistently insists that races will often miss the forest for the trees, though. That they will go for the selfish-short term option and bet it won't screw them long-term with the Reapers. Examples: Council, Cerberus, quarians, etc. Not a single Council race aids the construction of the Crucible unless Shepard scratches their back first.
Not sure about Cerberus. They seem to have their own plan at least. And it involves the Crucible. They're just self-destructive.
Modifié par StreetMagic, 21 février 2014 - 08:16 .
#748
Posté 21 février 2014 - 08:18
Iakus
-
- Members
- 30 410 messages
And the game has been ridiculed for it.CronoDragoon wrote...
The ME series consistently insists that races will often miss the forest for the trees, though. That they will go for the selfish-short term option and bet it won't screw them long-term with the Reapers. Examples: Council, Cerberus, quarians, etc. Not a single Council race aids the construction of the Crucible unless Shepard scratches their back first.
And it's particularly egregious of Cerberus since in ME2 they appeared to be the only ones taking the Reaper threat seriously. Thus the whole point behind working with them before.
#749
Posté 21 février 2014 - 08:18
CronoDragoon
-
- Members
- 10 413 messages
Eh, I don't see the problem with Sur'Kesh. I DO see a problem with Sanctuary. If the Catalyst controls TIM then why allow him to research indoctrination to the point where the Catalyst feels it necessary to attack and destroy the research facility? That's the head-scratcher.StreetMagic wrote...
Not sure about Cerberus. They seem to have their own plan at least. And it involves the Crucible. They're just self-destructive.
#750
Posté 21 février 2014 - 08:19
CronoDragoon
-
- Members
- 10 413 messages
Not really, no. Maybe a few threads here and there but that's about as representative as overall player interest in asari reproductive organs.iakus wrote...
And the game has been ridiculed for it.
