1765 réponses à ce sujet

[ImaginaryMatter]

grey_wind wrote...

StreetMagic wrote...

Legion is just another thing to chalk up that was lost from ME2. It's like they intentionally wanted people to forget details from that game. The viewpoint of the Geth, the Collector Base (or hell, just Collectors and Harbinger, period), the whole ME2 squad in general.

I've joked about it before, but there's not much to lose out on if you just jump from ME1 to ME3 (with all the ME2 squaddies dead) and completely ignore ME2. It's almost like they go out of their way to sweep any developments made in ME2 under the rug.

Ya, ME2 was amazing but ultimately pointless in the grandscheme of things. All it really did was set up parts of the Tuchunka and Rannoch arcs. But in the laters case a lot of it was retcon-ished.

Modifié par ImaginaryMatter, 22 février 2014 - 06:40 .

[Invisible Man]

doing the citadel dlc after horizon seems sound to me. it's not just a party, you're getting some much needed r&r while the Normandy is undergoing a routine maintenance overhaul. I'd think that's a good idea before a backbreaking series of fights... namely: Cerberus hq & the battle for earth.

---edit
(lorewise it's a back breaking fight)

Modifié par Invisible Man, 22 février 2014 - 07:54 .

[SilentJohn1]

 The first scene with the Starchild, "You can't save me!"...Actually no I'm the only one that can and I have already saved you countless times.

[wolfhowwl]

grey_wind wrote...

ImaginaryMatter wrote...

starlitegirlx wrote...

Yes, this is a huge issue in the writing. You are pushed along the lines of believing everything offered by Legion and that reaper code in them is a good thing, etc etc when it is highly likely legion could have somehow manufactured all that information. I no longer take legion's word on faith simply because the game leads me too that. I now choose the quarians over the geth then watch legion try to kill me which proves to me the geth shouldn't have been saved if it means sacraficing the quarians.

Legion is almost a completely different character in ME3.

Beyond the name, he pretty much is a different character. And they could have kept all the same basic plot points without changing too much about the arc too: you could have had a conversation with Legion where he talks about how the Geth came to the conclusion that sometimes using another's technology might be justifiable, and the Reaper Code could have been written in such a way that it didn't strip the Geth of everything that made them so unique as a species.

Since their original stance is actually pretty stupid given the circumstances I don't mind them changing it but it should be acknowledged.

Yes, Legion your approval of us "creating our own future" by not using the technology in the Collector Base would be such comfort when we die because we failed to use every tool at our disposal in total war against the Reapers.

That reminds me, the handling of the Collector Base decision was pretty bad.

Modifié par wolfhowwl, 22 février 2014 - 08:49 .

[congokong]

wolfhowwl wrote...

grey_wind wrote...

ImaginaryMatter wrote...

starlitegirlx wrote...

Yes, this is a huge issue in the writing. You are pushed along the lines of believing everything offered by Legion and that reaper code in them is a good thing, etc etc when it is highly likely legion could have somehow manufactured all that information. I no longer take legion's word on faith simply because the game leads me too that. I now choose the quarians over the geth then watch legion try to kill me which proves to me the geth shouldn't have been saved if it means sacraficing the quarians.

Legion is almost a completely different character in ME3.

Beyond the name, he pretty much is a different character. And they could have kept all the same basic plot points without changing too much about the arc too: you could have had a conversation with Legion where he talks about how the Geth came to the conclusion that sometimes using another's technology might be justifiable, and the Reaper Code could have been written in such a way that it didn't strip the Geth of everything that made them so unique as a species.

Since their original stance is actually pretty stupid given the circumstances I don't mind them changing it but it should be acknowledged.

Yes, Legion your approval of us "creating our own future" by not using the technology in the Collector Base would be such comfort when we die because we failed to use every tool at our disposal in total war against the Reapers.

That reminds me, the handling of the Collector Base decision was pretty bad.

Wow, I never picked up on that irony. Legion goes on about building their own future but then jump at the opportunity of using the reaper code upgrades.

Blowing up the collector base is one of the stupidest paragon decisions IMO. I only did it when role-playing a heavy idealist but doing it is disrespectful to everything Cerberus has done for you. It's like saying, "I'll never trust you at all even if you brought me back to life and gave me everything to save the galaxy. Thanks btw and now I quit." Considering how at the time they had no backup plan to deal with the reapers and the reapers had defeated every civilization for millions of years blowing up a potential weapon because of idealism is so stupid. It's like Shepard isn't grasping just how big of a threat the reapers are. The war wouldn't be won with spears. They needed any asset they could get.

It ironically turns out to be a good decision because of indoctrination but when role-playing I wouldn't use that as a factor because it could happen to anyone. What I don't like dialogue-wise is how every crew member scolds you for keeping the base and Shepard remains silent. Are they all that short-sighted? They do this even if they encourage you to keep it when they were in your squad.

I wish dialogue-wise they allowed you to say something remotely nice to TIM when he says "Shepard, it's a new day. And we have you to thank for our deliverance." That praise is more than you ever get from someone like Hackett and yet Shepard's responses are "I didn't do it for you", "Don't try to flatter me", and "We lost a lot of people" if anyone died. How about a "Thank you for giving me everything I needed to do this. Now we're going to have a party to celebrate our victory"? The game forcibly shapes Shepard into defying Cerberus in ME3 by that ending even if your Shepard defended Cerberus all game and even wished she was offered employment before she died.

Modifié par congokong, 22 février 2014 - 05:25 .

[congokong]

starlitegirlx wrote...
Cerberus did nothing for Shepard. Cerberus and Tim did it because Shepard was humanity's best chance and he wanted to use shepard for that reason. Then he set Shepard up from minute one to get a reaper IFF that he magically already had the code needed for it. He was ready to get the base that he wanted. He always wanted to get through that omega relay. Don't kid yourself on that. The whole thing was an elaborate set up to get through that omega relay where he knew the collectors where and he had already surmised by the looks of it that reaper tech was related and the reapers were connected and he wanted that power. That is Tim in a nutshell. He might seem like he did you a big favor, but it's not a big favor when someone does it to manipulate you to do what they want. It's slavery. "I saved you, you owe me." Yeah thanks. Next time, don't waste your time.

No **** TIM brought Shepard back to use her. He never hid that fact. That's not manipulation anymore than what Hackett pulls. He certainly didn't revive her because of my Shepard's charming personality. But regardless of his reasons he gave Shepard her life back with technically no strings attached. Shepard could've told him to get stuffed and left but he knew Shepard would save the colonies. His manipulation involved things like using her as bait on the collector ship and while his tactics are unethical, he got the job done very quickly. That's something my Shepard admires. And that's the point. Time was of the essence and the Alliance moves too slowly. So he did what he had to do to stop the Collectors ASAP.

There's no proof that TIM knew from the start about the IFF. It wasn't until after the collector ship mission that EDI confirmed its necessity. There's also no proof that he did all this to get the collector base. If that was his goal all along there's no way he would've done all this on the hopes that he could talk Shepard into keeping it right when Shepard was about to blow the base up. There would've been a backup plan. It was probably something he considered but it wasn't until seeing EDI's schematics that he knew it was feasible. Sure, he's partially driven for power for himself and humanity just like every other race but there's no hiding his intent to stop the reapers. That was the priority.

TIM never says, "I saved you. You owe me." The closest thing he says to that is in the game's end if Shepard betrays him. He says, "Don't turn your back on me, Shepard. I made you. I brought you back from the dead." Fair enough. In his position I'd say the same damn thing if someone I invested so much on was screwing me over for no good reason as I saw it. He only plays that card when Shepard turns on him.

"Slavery?" Get real. The Alliance locking Shepard up for 6 months for saving the galaxy and then only releasing her when they need her to do it again sounds more like slavery to me.

Modifié par congokong, 22 février 2014 - 07:36 .

[ImaginaryMatter]

starlitegirlx wrote...

Invisible Man wrote...

doing the citadel dlc after horizon seems sound to me. it's not just a party, you're getting some much needed r&r while the Normandy is undergoing a routine maintenance overhaul. I'd think that's a good idea before a backbreaking series of fights... namely: Cerberus hq & the battle for earth.

---edit
(lorewise it's a back breaking fight)

I don't think it's lore breaking. I think it feels so weird to stop and have a party when you have this feeling you have to go after Kai Leng to get to Tim right then. I think that they even use words like 'act fast' or 'hurry' or something like that. That's why it feels really weird. Like 'Oh we need to go after this slippery tool to get to Tim right away, but let's go have a party first' .... huh?

I find it tonally disrupting (is that the phrase?). The whole game world basically goes on pause for the Citadel content; it's fun content and I would buy it again but it's in the wrong place. Remember one of the earlier conversations with Joker in ME3 in the Presidium Commons and he talks about how people are distracting themselves with the new Blasto movie, quasar tournements, and tips on how to make your apartment look bigger? Well, guess what you do in Citadel?

It feels a lot like this:

Modifié par ImaginaryMatter, 22 février 2014 - 07:51 .

[grey_wind]

wolfhowwl wrote...

grey_wind wrote...

ImaginaryMatter wrote...

starlitegirlx wrote...

Yes, this is a huge issue in the writing. You are pushed along the lines of believing everything offered by Legion and that reaper code in them is a good thing, etc etc when it is highly likely legion could have somehow manufactured all that information. I no longer take legion's word on faith simply because the game leads me too that. I now choose the quarians over the geth then watch legion try to kill me which proves to me the geth shouldn't have been saved if it means sacraficing the quarians.

Legion is almost a completely different character in ME3.

Beyond the name, he pretty much is a different character. And they could have kept all the same basic plot points without changing too much about the arc too: you could have had a conversation with Legion where he talks about how the Geth came to the conclusion that sometimes using another's technology might be justifiable, and the Reaper Code could have been written in such a way that it didn't strip the Geth of everything that made them so unique as a species.

Since their original stance is actually pretty stupid given the circumstances I don't mind them changing it but it should be acknowledged.

Yes, Legion your approval of us "creating our own future" by not using the technology in the Collector Base would be such comfort when we die because we failed to use every tool at our disposal in total war against the Reapers.

Legion actually tells you to keep the Collector Base. What he warns against is becoming too reliant and dependent upon its technology and knowledge.
That's what the Geth's original stance means anyway. Not that you can't use another's technology, but that you should not become complacent and dependent upon something you don't understand like the Council races were with mass effect technology.

This is the biggest problem with the Reaper Code scenario; not that it's somebody else's technology that the Geth are using, but that they're using it in the way they warned others not too: being totally reliant on it and without understanding it at all.

[Invisible Man]

ImaginaryMatter wrote...

starlitegirlx wrote...

Invisible Man wrote...

doing the citadel dlc after horizon seems sound to me. it's not just a party, you're getting some much needed r&r while the Normandy is undergoing a routine maintenance overhaul. I'd think that's a good idea before a backbreaking series of fights... namely: Cerberus hq & the battle for earth.

---edit
(lorewise it's a back breaking fight)

I don't think it's lore breaking. I think it feels so weird to stop and have a party when you have this feeling you have to go after Kai Leng to get to Tim right then. I think that they even use words like 'act fast' or 'hurry' or something like that. That's why it feels really weird. Like 'Oh we need to go after this slippery tool to get to Tim right away, but let's go have a party first' .... huh?

I find it tonally disrupting (is that the phrase?). The whole game world basically goes on pause for the Citadel content; it's fun content and I would buy it again but it's in the wrong place. Remember one of the earlier conversations with Joker in ME3 in the Presidium Commons and he talks about how people are distracting themselves with the new Blasto movie, quasar tournements, and tips on how to make your apartment look bigger? Well, guess what you do in Citadel?

I can see what you're saying, and it's true. however, it seems my point has been passed over. I think the best time for the Normandy's maintenance overhaul is just before the endgame, and as shepard and crew don't really have anything to do while the ship is out of action for repairs, a party isn't out of place. I actually would have liked to do the dlc after the whole priority earth mission, but I don't get to keep all the cool gadgets I collected if I did the dlc after the game was "over".

about my lorewise comment, that was about the difficulty of the endgame missions, doing both missions back to back would be hard on a crew & on the ship itself. or it should have been, though it didn't give off that impression in game, to me at least.

[congokong]

grey_wind wrote...
Legion actually tells you to keep the Collector Base. What he warns against is becoming too reliant and dependent upon its technology and knowledge.
That's what the Geth's original stance means anyway. Not that you can't use another's technology, but that you should not become complacent and dependent upon something you don't understand like the Council races were with mass effect technology.

This is the biggest problem with the Reaper Code scenario; not that it's somebody else's technology that the Geth are using, but that they're using it in the way they warned others not too: being totally reliant on it and without understanding it at all.

Legion says to keep the base when TIM urges you to but afterwards on the Normandy disapproves. Everyone dissaproves though so whatever.

Legion is saying that taking an offered technological path blinds you to alternatives. We see that in the real world in how humanity has followed a specific technological path through the use of things such as guns and automobiles. Most advances have revolved around inventions such as these. If guns weren't invented who knows what we'd be using now as standard weaponry.

In reality anyone who uses technology becomes reliant on it without much understanding. Read the Unabomber's manifesto, Industrial Society and its Future, if you want details. It actually shares a message with the ME series regarding the dangers of technology.

Modifié par congokong, 22 février 2014 - 09:03 .

[Xilizhra]

Wow, I never picked up on that irony. Legion goes on about building their own future but then jump at the opportunity of using the reaper code upgrades.

No. The whole point of that is that their own future had been destroyed. The point of Rannoch is that, on their own, the geth lost, which is why they needed the help of the Reapers to begin with. Accepting the Reaper code was literally the only thing that let the geth live.

[congokong]

Xilizhra wrote...

Wow, I never picked up on that irony. Legion goes on about building their own future but then jump at the opportunity of using the reaper code upgrades.

No. The whole point of that is that their own future had been destroyed. The point of Rannoch is that, on their own, the geth lost, which is why they needed the help of the Reapers to begin with. Accepting the Reaper code was literally the only thing that let the geth live.

That seems half-right. The geth had no choice but to accept the reaper influence when the quarians attacked. But once the Rannoch reaper was destroyed it wasn't necessary to take the reaper code if the quarians would stand down.

The game only offers 3 choices.
1. Let the geth take the reaper code and kill the quarians.
2. Don't let the geth take the reaper code and let the quarians kill the geth.
3. Let the geth take the reaper code and tell the quarians to stand down.

The 4th option that doesn't exist in-game is:
4. Don't let the geth take the reaper code and tell the quarians to stand down.

Honestly, option 4 seems unlikely without lying to Gerrel that the geth would kill them if the quarians kept attacking. If the quarians knew the geth were defenseless without the reaper code upgrades I don't think they'd cease fire.

Regardless, I was never under the impression that Legion wanted the reaper code upgrades for survival after the reaper was killed. He seemed to want them because they improved his people. Remember on the Normandy before this whole 3-4 option scenario occurred how he admired the reaper code upgrades for being "beautiful; indicative of life?" That seems contradictive to his technological progression views in ME2.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

ImaginaryMatter wrote...

That depiction of vanilla ME3 is really strange. How much of it is "skull and crossbones," really? Thessia, the ending (if you see it that way), and ... ?

Obviously nothing surrounding the war going on was happy, but what can I say? It's war, versus an "unstoppable" force.

[congokong]

starlitegirlx wrote...
Yes, slavery. He stuck her in hell through what he did. He brought he back to use her. Someone brings me back from death where I am at peace, in a situation identical to shepard's, with reapers at the doorstep, people calling me delusional throughout the galaxy, having to work for a terrorist organization, teammates yelling at me on horizon, I hunt that bastard down and shoot him in every limb, gouge out his eyes, then leave him in a room of husks. Then I wait three days and go in and kill whatever is left.

I wanted to gun him down from ME2 when I first meet him. Nothing has changed. How would you like to be brought back from death to go through all shepard did? You're lying if you are grateful or you are a halfwit who has never lived through any kind of hell with no life experiences to draw upon to fully understand that what was done to her was horrendouse beyond words. He violated shepard in ways you can't even begin to imagine and that this game really doesn't even give that a second thought shows how pathetic they are.. Anyone with half a wit would kill that bastard in the most vicious way possible.

It's clear we see this completely differently and will never change each other's minds so there's no point in discussing it further.

[Bob from Accounting]

Let's not compete over who's supposedly been through the 'most hell.' It's not a mark of wisdom. Often quite the opposite.

[ImaginaryMatter]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

That depiction of vanilla ME3 is really strange. How much of it is "skull and crossbones," really? Thessia, the ending (if you see it that way), and ... ?

Obviously nothing surrounding the war going on was happy, but what can I say? It's war, versus an "unstoppable" force.

In the background there are several million people/aliens who die each day, right? I think in Citadel it just sort of gets forgotten so we can have this goofy and fun time. I'm just trying to say the DLC feels out of place, with the rest of the game.