1765 réponses à ce sujet

[DeinonSlayer]

I don't think Eva could do that. I think she needed the base to be completely secured. I honestly don't have a problem with it beyond the fact that Cerberus was killing potentially useful researchers that could have been taken and used to work out more issues. Otherwise, I don't have a problem with almost any of Cerberus' actions on a moral or ethical scale. If innocents have to die to make my goal a reality, then they die. If my goals met, I'm fine. No problem.

I wish they weren't indoctrinated. I'm pissed that they were so reckless with the technology. That's why I destroyed the base. I was certain that no one was going to be able to control the technology, and that they'd be too reckless with it. I don't have an issue with studying Reaper tech, so long as precautionary measures are taken.

I accept that innocents die in the course of achieving our goals (ex: X57 capturing Balak, retrieving Koris). I understand one can't dwell on such losses - that's simply psychological self-preservation. I still see it as preferable to avert such losses wherever possible, wherever it doesn't compromise the mission to do so (ex: save the life pods instead of immediately picking through the dreadnought - we're given no reason as to why it can't be done later). Safeguarding one's citizens and interests is the whole reason to have a military in the first place. Cerberus, particularly in ME3, seems all too eager to throw both resources (like the researchers) and civilians to the side (ex: gunning down unarmed, fleeing civilians on the Presidium and elsewhere).

I think Dean_The_Young's super-long rewrite did a better job portraying them (can't remember if you saw it, Massively). There would be no need to kidnap the population of a colony for conversion into soldiers. After ending the Collector threat, Cerberus should have been cashing in on the good will that would generate - people would be lining up to enlist.

EDIT: link

[MassivelyEffective0730]

I accept that innocents die in the course of achieving our goals (ex: X57 capturing Balak, retrieving Koris). I understand one can't dwell on such losses - that's simply psychological self-preservation. I still see it as preferable to avert such losses wherever possible, wherever it doesn't compromise the mission to do so (ex: save the life pods instead of immediately picking through the dreadnought - we're given no reason as to why it can't be done later). Safeguarding one's citizens and interests is the whole reason to have a military in the first place. Cerberus, particularly in ME3, seems all too eager to throw both resources (like the researchers) and civilians to the side (ex: gunning down unarmed, fleeing civilians on the Presidium and elsewhere).

I think Dean_The_Young's super-long rewrite did a better job portraying them (can't remember if you saw it, Massively). There would be no need to kidnap the population of a colony for conversion into soldiers. After ending the Collector threat, Cerberus should have been cashing in on the good will that would generate - people would be lining up to enlist.

 

I'm one of the wardogs that probably needs to be separated from the sheep; Saving civilians is a convenience to me. Whether they live or die or suffer is an unimportant distraction in my opinion. I believe in safeguarding my interests, and if that includes my civilians for some purpose that I need to accomplish, I'll do it. I think the Dreadnought was still secured, and the Geth hadn't regrouped yet to fight off the Quarians who would have wasted time on rescuing survivors. The researchers being killed is uneconomical, yes. As for the fleeing civilians, I can honestly say I don't give a damn. It's one thing if they're lining up to contribute. But if they aren't, and are only existing to be protected, then they're worthless dirt in my eyes. I have no care what happens to them, so long as it doesn't affect my goals negatively. That's why I'm fine with killing them. At least the Reapers aren't turning them against me. 

 

I'm also not really talking about Cerberus here; I'm talking about what I'd do. I agree with that idea for the story, and I wish I could stay in TIM's good graces while destroying the base.

[KaiserShep]

I'm one of the wardogs that probably needs to be separated from the sheep; Saving civilians is a convenience to me. Whether they live or die or suffer is an unimportant distraction in my opinion. I believe in safeguarding my interests, and if that includes my civilians for some purpose that I need to accomplish, I'll do it. I think the Dreadnought was still secured, and the Geth hadn't regrouped yet to fight off the Quarians who would have wasted time on rescuing survivors. The researchers being killed is uneconomical, yes. As for the fleeing civilians, I can honestly say I don't give a damn. It's one thing if they're lining up to contribute. But if they aren't, and are only existing to be protected, then they're worthless dirt in my eyes. I have no care what happens to them, so long as it doesn't affect my goals negatively. That's why I'm fine with killing them. At least the Reapers aren't turning them against me.

 

But then this kind of begs the question as to what those goals were in the first place. At what point does the body count of civilians undermine the intended goal of protecting the species (assuming that was the goal in the first place)? I can't help but sense a little hostility when I see things like this, because it's one thing to coldly accept the losses of the percentage of the population to serve the greater whole during warfare, especially when the entirety of the human race is at stake, but when civilians are considered "worthless dirt" with regard to them being gunned down for no reason, this just strikes me as malevolence for its own sake, as if it's some way to rationalize any and all forms of murder, regardless of whether or not it was really necessary to achieve any given objective.

[Farangbaa]

I'm one of the wardogs that probably needs to be separated from the sheep; Saving civilians is a convenience to me. Whether they live or die or suffer is an unimportant distraction in my opinion. I believe in safeguarding my interests, and if that includes my civilians for some purpose that I need to accomplish, I'll do it. I think the Dreadnought was still secured, and the Geth hadn't regrouped yet to fight off the Quarians who would have wasted time on rescuing survivors. The researchers being killed is uneconomical, yes. As for the fleeing civilians, I can honestly say I don't give a damn. It's one thing if they're lining up to contribute. But if they aren't, and are only existing to be protected, then they're worthless dirt in my eyes. I have no care what happens to them, so long as it doesn't affect my goals negatively. That's why I'm fine with killing them. At least the Reapers aren't turning them against me. 

 

I'm also not really talking about Cerberus here; I'm talking about what I'd do. I agree with that idea for the story, and I wish I could stay in TIM's good graces while destroying the base.

 

More and more I begin to doubt you are really military.

[Vigilant111]

I'm one of the wardogs that probably needs to be separated from the sheep; Saving civilians is a convenience to me. Whether they live or die or suffer is an unimportant distraction in my opinion. I believe in safeguarding my interests, and if that includes my civilians for some purpose that I need to accomplish, I'll do it. I think the Dreadnought was still secured, and the Geth hadn't regrouped yet to fight off the Quarians who would have wasted time on rescuing survivors. The researchers being killed is uneconomical, yes. As for the fleeing civilians, I can honestly say I don't give a damn. It's one thing if they're lining up to contribute. But if they aren't, and are only existing to be protected, then they're worthless dirt in my eyes. I have no care what happens to them, so long as it doesn't affect my goals negatively. That's why I'm fine with killing them. At least the Reapers aren't turning them against me. 

 

I'm also not really talking about Cerberus here; I'm talking about what I'd do. I agree with that idea for the story, and I wish I could stay in TIM's good graces while destroying the base.

 

Are you Javik? He has been known to slay his own men so to spare them from reaperization and perhaps subsequently preventing future possibility of combat encounters with his men-turned-collectors

 

Your post is quite disturbing without the support of context information. I understand there are always difficult situations where hard choices must be made, but we only sacrifice people in order to save more of them, and even this line of thought appears chillingly cold

[Mordokai]

Are you Javik? He has been known to slay his own men so to spare them from reaperization and perhaps subsequently preventing future possibility of combat encounters with his men-turned-collectors

 

Not that I agree with Massively on his(or is it hers, not sure, not that it really matters) views, quite the opposite. But didn't Javik slay his men after they were indoctrinated and they tried to kill him?

 

I'm a little sketchy on the details, so I might be wrong on this one. If that's what he did, then that was a logical course of actions. What Massively suggests... I think people have been sent to International Criminal Tribunal for less.

[CronoDragoon]

I think Dean_The_Young's super-long rewrite did a better job portraying them (can't remember if you saw it, Massively). There would be no need to kidnap the population of a colony for conversion into soldiers. After ending the Collector threat, Cerberus should have been cashing in on the good will that would generate - people would be lining up to enlist.

EDIT: link

 

While Dean's rewrite is well-thought out, it'd be interesting to see the tl;dr version that necessarily would have to be incorporated into the game. The tricky thing about game rationale is not just that it has to make sense but also be concise and easy to understand. Could ME3 have reasonably convinced players that Cerberus could be joined to the Alliance, especially if you destroy the base at the end of ME2? I'm not sure there's enough time in the game to allow this level of explanation.

[themikefest]

More and more I begin to doubt you are really military.

Good luck with that.

[Vigilant111]

Not that I agree with Massively on his(or is it hers, not sure, not that it really matters) views, quite the opposite. But didn't Javik slay his men after they were indoctrinated and they tried to kill him?

 

I'm a little sketchy on the details, so I might be wrong on this one. If that's what he did, then that was a logical course of actions. What Massively suggests... I think people have been sent to International Criminal Tribunal for less.

 

Yeah, I might be wrong as well checking wiki pages

 

EDIT: after skimming Javik's page for a bit I got the following: "Javik is initially unhappy at more of his race being wiped out but realizes that they were indoctrinated. He tells Liara that he is grateful that Shepard killed them, calling it an act of mercy."

 

Though I distinctly remember he said something about killing his own men because he had no choice...it wouldn't have made much effect on me if those men he killed were already at the prime of indoctrination process

 

EDIT EDIT: Watch at about 3:30

 

I think you are right

[CronoDragoon]

Yeah, he says his former team was Indoctrinated and sent against him, and he slit their throats in the night while they were sleeping.

[TheTurtle]

I'm one of the wardogs that probably needs to be separated from the sheep; Saving civilians is a convenience to me. Whether they live or die or suffer is an unimportant distraction in my opinion. I believe in safeguarding my interests, and if that includes my civilians for some purpose that I need to accomplish, I'll do it. I think the Dreadnought was still secured, and the Geth hadn't regrouped yet to fight off the Quarians who would have wasted time on rescuing survivors. The researchers being killed is uneconomical, yes. As for the fleeing civilians, I can honestly say I don't give a damn. It's one thing if they're lining up to contribute. But if they aren't, and are only existing to be protected, then they're worthless dirt in my eyes. I have no care what happens to them, so long as it doesn't affect my goals negatively. That's why I'm fine with killing them. At least the Reapers aren't turning them against me.

I'm also not really talking about Cerberus here; I'm talking about what I'd do. I agree with that idea for the story, and I wish I could stay in TIM's good graces while destroying the base.

You preach about how humanity and Cerberus should be dominant, but you don't seem to give a damn about the people who compose this race. You call civilians "worthless dirt" what the hell is wrong with you? I can understand fazing out the loss of lives that you have no control over, but killing innocent civilians because "they're in your way" that's disturbing.

[Mordokai]

You preach about how humanity and Cerberus should be dominant, but you don't seem to give a damn about the people who compose this race. You call civilians "worthless dirt" what the hell is wrong with you? I can understand fazing out the loss of lives that you have no control over, but killing innocent civilians because "they're in your way" that's disturbing.

 

Sounds familiar?

 

"I don't know what Illusive Man is doing, but it has nothing to do with humanity's best interest."

[Iakus]

In ME3, yes, I'd agree with you. That said, I'd also say that the VS does the same. No different to me. Not really a minor delay, since they're getting in my way at a critical moment on the Citadel as well. 

 

I actually timed it.  It takes slightly over a minute and a single dialogue option to talk the VS down barring doing something stupid like getting the salarian Councilor killed.

 

 

 

Still, even in ME3, they're doing some very inspired things. I really wish we had the ability to keep Sanctuary going for example. As I've said, if TIM wasn't so careless and reckless with his Reaper tech, he would've been my greatest ally in ME3.

 

This is the part where I back away slowly....

[TheTurtle]

Sounds familiar?

"I don't know what Illusive Man is doing, but it has nothing to do with humanity's best interest."

In the words of Varys "He would see humanity burn if he could be king of the ashes"

[DeinonSlayer]

But then this kind of begs the question as to what those goals were in the first place. At what point does the body count of civilians undermine the intended goal of protecting the species (assuming that was the goal in the first place)? I can't help but sense a little hostility when I see things like this, because it's one thing to coldly accept the losses of the percentage of the population to serve the greater whole during warfare, especially when the entirety of the human race is at stake, but when civilians are considered "worthless dirt" with regard to them being gunned down for no reason, this just strikes me as malevolence for its own sake, as if it's some way to rationalize any and all forms of murder, regardless of whether or not it was really necessary to achieve any given objective.

This. To keep things in-universe, Massively previously stated that he'd burn the galaxy for the sake of Miranda. That, evidently, is his primary goal. Shooting squadmates, sacrificing entire species and converting thousands of kidnapped civilians into husks is fine so long as nothing happens to her - and everyone under Shepard's command is expected to go along with it without disagreement. That's how it comes across, at least.

I'd count my canon Shepard as similarly compromised, in the sense that the reclamation of Rannoch and safety of the Quarian people is counted among his primary goals. Rated as a higher priority than would, say, a human or asari colony with a comparable or higher population. That said... if Destroy targeted their cybernetics, killed them, he'd still choose it, even though he'd be exponentially angrier and probably suicidal after doing so. The primary primary goal isn't compromised by personal desires.

[themikefest]

For me, I would let the Galaxy burn to save humanity

[Iakus]

I'd count my canon Shepard as similarly compromised, in the sense that the reclamation of Rannoch and safety of the Quarian people is counted among his primary goals. Rated as a higher priority than would, say, a human or asari colony with a comparable or higher population. That said... if Destroy targeted their cybernetics, killed them, he'd still choose it, even though he'd be exponentially angrier and probably suicidal after doing so. The primary primary goal isn't compromised by personal desires.

 

Fortunately in my case the only "compromising" I had to do with an Ash fan was take the paragon interrupt to have the squad put up their weapons.  I trusted Ash that much that she wouldn't shoot.

[Vigilant111]

This. To keep things in-universe, Massively previously stated that he'd burn the galaxy for the sake of Miranda. That, evidently, is his primary goal. Shooting squadmates, sacrificing entire species and converting thousands of kidnapped civilians into husks is fine so long as nothing happens to her - and everyone under Shepard's command is expected to go along with it without disagreement. That's how it comes across, at least.

I'd count my canon Shepard as similarly compromised, in the sense that the reclamation of Rannoch and safety of the Quarian people is counted among his primary goals. Rated as a higher priority than would, say, a human or asari colony with a comparable or higher population. That said... if Destroy targeted their cybernetics, killed them, he'd still choose it, even though he'd be exponentially angrier and probably suicidal after doing so. The primary primary goal isn't compromised by personal desires.

 

I know this sounds sadistic but it would be interesting to see what he does when he is charged with a mission to terminate Miranda's life

 

So, where does your loyalty lie, soldier?

[themikefest]

I know this sounds sadistic but it would be interesting to see what he does when he is charged with a mission to terminate Miranda's life

 

So, where does your loyalty lie, soldier?

For me that would depend on what the result would be of having to kill her.

 

My loyalty certainly doesn't fall to the Alliance or at least the leadership.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

You preach about how humanity and Cerberus should be dominant, but you don't seem to give a damn about the people who compose this race. You call civilians "worthless dirt" what the hell is wrong with you? I can understand fazing out the loss of lives that you have no control over, but killing innocent civilians because "they're in your way" that's disturbing.

 

How are they not in my way? They aren't contributing to the war effort. Against the Reapers, it really is a case of 'you're either with us, or you're against us'. There is no middle ground. What's wrong with you? It is disturbing, sure. I really don't give a damn about the people that compose the race. Should I? What good are they to me? What value are they to me?

[MassivelyEffective0730]

I know this sounds sadistic but it would be interesting to see what he does when he is charged with a mission to terminate Miranda's life

 

So, where does your loyalty lie, soldier?

 

There would be a lot of dead alliance command personnel for certain.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Sounds familiar?

 

"I don't know what Illusive Man is doing, but it has nothing to do with humanity's best interest."

 

In the words of Varys "He would see humanity burn if he could be king of the ashes"

 

If I wanted to be king, I'd control the Reapers. Then I get to be king of everything and make things the way I want. I have no desire for that. I wish to survive. I wish to make the galaxy a better place for me to live in. I'll act however I need to act to make it work.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

This is the part where I back away slowly....

 

 

Honestly, what's wrong with Sanctuary, besides the single man who's running it? Beyond it being inefficient to a degree, they found a potential game-changer that could possibly give us a major advantage on the ground against the Reapers.

[CrutchCricket]

So you arrest the Cerberus crew and turn them in to Council custody. Then we have Mordin do a ship wide sweep. Problem solved. 

I speak in hyperbole when talking about killing Miranda. But it would be nice to arrest her. 

 

EDI (while shackled) can lockdown the ship and fly it back to Cerberus. Not only can, but will according to her protocols.

 

And in case you hadn't noticed, the crew aren't twirling their mustaches and going muahahaha. They're just people (likely noncombatants for the most part) just trying to help. I have no doubt they were purposefully chosen that way as part of the sales pitch but what are you going to arrest them for, wearing the wrong jersey?

 

There's resenting being railroaded into a faction (kind of like we are in the Alliance in ME3) and then there's willingly ignoring the facts.

 

In ME3, yes, I'd agree with you. That said, I'd also say that the VS does the same. No different to me. Not really a minor delay, since they're getting in my way at a critical moment on the Citadel as well. 

 

Still, even in ME3, they're doing some very inspired things. I really wish we had the ability to keep Sanctuary going for example. As I've said, if TIM wasn't so careless and reckless with his Reaper tech, he would've been my greatest ally in ME3.

 

A delay of a minute vs the constant setbacks Cerberus keeps throwing at us? No, they're not even comparable. In theory you could even shave to single digit seconds if you were allowed to go pure ruthless and just shoot the VS and Udina on sight.

 

And yes, it'd be awesome if TIM wasn't reckless, and a complete tool and Kai Leng wasn't lame, and Cerberus wasn't trying to be the SS and the Empire all in one, and everything was completely different... but they aren't. They are what they are and what they are is useless, annoying obstacles. We agree on the ideas we wish they had and what they should be (more or less). But the reality is completely different.

 

I know. Indoctrination sucks. I doubt a Cerberus that wasn't indoctrinated would do that. And if they did (and weren't indoctrinated), I'd probably be the one destroying the data. Can't let the Reapers have a chance to get any more sources of this information. One copy is too many, and still too much of a threat, but we need it to build the Crucible.

 

See it's things like this that really let me know how far you're stretching it, just to try and validate the worst of Cerberus' failings. I'm starting to think you don't really see what Cerberus is, just what you want them to be. I mean, you played the game, you saw what happened and are able to reference it in discussion. But you gloss over it or just blame it solely on lolindoctrination. I don't think you really acknowledge that they are or were this inept and pointlessly evil (for lack of a better word), or at least the management was. You're over-idealizing them. The ideal is fine (plus or minus some details). But Cerberus is not it.

 

Are you Javik? He has been known to slay his own men so to spare them from reaperization and perhaps subsequently preventing future possibility of combat encounters with his men-turned-collectors

 

Necessary in this war, unfortunately. This falls under "better dead then captured" though, because we know what captured can mean. The difference is timing. Killing someone who can't fight (soldier or civilian) because they might get captured at some point is a little much. Doing so because the Reapers are breathing down your neck and they're about to overrun you is merely pragmatic, and a mercy.

 

And as for the already indoctrinated (as in the case of Javik's squad), there's no discussion. They're a threat beyond saving.

[Mordokai]

On an unrelated note, I'm beginning to understand how people on this forum have upwards five thousand posts...