On a tangent, I think Massively would do just grand in the Imperium of Man.
This would be pretty much daily occurrence.
I would totally excel in it.
I even quoted them.
Hell, I think if there's one character in fiction I'm most like, it's this guy:
Rassilon, the Lord President of the Time Lords.
Or, an unfettered Doctor:
There's no distinction in my eyes between inaction and inability in my opinion. That's how I view things. If they can't or won't contribute, then I don't care about them beyond ensuring that they aren't used against me. What do you suggest I do with them instead? No matter what they do, everything of value they possess is a resource that isn't going towards the fight. Anything they have of worth is something that isn't going towards the battle. Every pre-fab building they have is part of a ship, or armor, or a gun that isn't being used against the Reapers. What I'm suggesting is that we move as close to total war as is physically possible for organics. Any resource not going towards the war effort is a wasted resource.
Even looking beyond the moral considerations, this whole idea of killing civilians before the Reapers can kill them just seems like a massive (no pun intended) waste. Let's say you're right that they confer no benefits for the war effort. The reason you don't kill them all is because of the costs associated with killing them. Even if you don't care about civilians, the soldiers you're giving orders to will. Having them actively kill their own civilians or even fail to act in their defense will quickly sap both their morale and their confidence in your leadership (indeed, the cumulative psychological effect of the billions of casualties caused by the Reapers is something ME3 is constantly trying to impress on us). So I just don't see the point, even from a purely utilitarian point of view.
Returning to the topic, I'm going to say something even more inflammatory than anything MassivelyEffective0730 has said: Ready? I think the most poorly written scene in the series was Tali's loyalty mission. *runs and hides*
Even looking beyond the moral considerations, this whole idea of killing civilians before the Reapers can kill them just seems like a massive (no pun intended) waste. Let's say you're right that they confer no benefits for the war effort. The reason you don't kill them all is because of the costs associated with killing them. Even if you don't care about civilians, the soldiers you're giving orders to will. Having them actively kill their own civilians or even fail to act in their defense will quickly sap both their morale and their confidence in your leadership (indeed, the cumulative psychological effect of the billions of casualties caused by the Reapers is something ME3 is constantly trying to impress on us). So I just don't see the point, even from a purely utilitarian point of view.
Returning to the topic, I'm going to say something even more inflammatory than anything MassivelyEffective0730 has said: Ready? I think the most poorly written scene in the series was Tali's loyalty mission. *runs and hides*
That's a problem to deal with, and it scares me: That's why part of me completely agrees with the ideal of having Cerberus shock troops who will obey me without question or hesitation. If my own people don't have the will to be evil, to be monsters themselves, then how can I hope to pit them against Reapers and win. Yeah, I think the shock troops were a good idea, as long as they could be controlled. Absolute obedience is a must. I would question my troops on why they would have the confidence to follow me if I didn't have the capability to do what I needed to do. I wouldn't be worth following if I didn't. Either they don't have the package to do what I tell them, or I don't have the capability to win the war. Being a hero, being some kind of savior, it's not going to protect them against the Reapers. I'm not going to win, nor do I deserve to win being anything less than what I am. They need to steel themselves from compassion and humanity. They need to be just as machine-like and robotic as the Reapers they fight, if not more so. Hell, that's why I'd want a Clone Army from Star Wars, or a Droid Army, one of absolute competence, and one of absolute obedience. I'm a terrible leader if I can't trust them to do what I need them too, and I'm a terrible leader if I can't do what I need to do.
That's what I see as so beautiful about the Reapers. I admire them, and their singularity of purpose and will, and I wish on my hands and knees that my people were like that. To make a few quotes:
'And I thought: My God... the genius of that. The genius. The will to do that. Perfect, genuine, complete, crystalline, pure. And then I realized they were stronger than we.'
- Colonel Kurtz, Apocalypse Now!
Master Payne: For all we know, those are some new form of revenant, and the only thing to do is kill them. Could you burn down people — women and children — even if you knew they had become monsters?
Agatha: I ... No ... I don't know.
Master Payne: The Baron can. The Baron has. I respect him for that, but I don't want to be him.
- Girl Genius
"You still don't understand what you're dealing with, do you? Perfect organism. Its structural perfection is matched only by its hostility. I admire its purity. A survivor... unclouded by conscience, remorse, or delusions of morality."
I found the placement of the morality choice questionable on that mission.
Bioware went for the abomination aesthetic. The zombies. We just shot and killed them. However, in all the conversations with Garrus and Javik they were not zombies but indoctrinated. They could recognize who they once were. "In my cycle, they turned our own children against us."
Garrus describes the reapers capturing troops and using them against you the next day knowing you'll hesitate. How do you fight an enemy like that? he said.
But we saw zombies. Horror. And what was the point in that? Mooks to kill.
So even your Cerberus conscripts would get overwritten and turned against you. It is inevitable.
There is no way of winning this war conventionally without collateral damage.
Bioware went for the abomination aesthetic. The zombies. We just shot and killed them. However, in all the conversations with Garrus and Javik they were not zombies but indoctrinated. They could recognize who they once were. "In my cycle, they turned our own children against us."
Garrus describes the reapers capturing troops and using them against you the next day knowing you'll hesitate. How do you fight an enemy like that? he said.
But we saw zombies. Horror. And what was the point in that? Mooks to kill.
So even your Cerberus conscripts would get overwritten and turned against you. It is inevitable.
There is no way of winning this war conventionally without collateral damage.
I'm fine with it. I accepted that the moment I accepted the Reapers as being what they were with their capabilities. No war ever has no collateral damage.
You know, what you can do is what Illium did: specifically target Reaper troop transports and processor ships before they reach the planet. Their capital ships will be intact still, but you'd slow down the harvesting process as much as possible, destroying any husks made on previously-harvested worlds before they can be deployed, all without obliterating your own colonies and in so doing breaking your own army's morale. It'd keep everyone looking at the Reapers as their enemy instead of wanting to turn their guns on superiors who are ordering them to kill their own families.Even then, it's a difficult decision: Do I let the planet be harvested in the ideal that I can take the time and resources I have, and use them while knowing that the Reapers numbers are growing with husks, indoctrinated, and harvested (while still possibly being hunted by other Reapers simultaneously), or do I burn them and deny the Reapers that resource, while now facing the full strength of their existing forces?
It's a tough call from an economic and strategic standpoint, and, thinking about it now, Deinon was right: there is no right answer to this. You're kinda boned no matter how you look at it. I'd wait until the Reapers land to detonate the nukes or fire the guns or whatever. That way, I can take out a few of them at least.
Yes, useful as cannon fodder and repurposed reaper troops. How exactly are folks with zero training, getting into their old age, with questionalbe front line viability suppose to be any use in a fight? You said it yourself, they must show what value they have. The value of a logistics officer or a technician in this dire time is woefully underneeded compared to a pilot or front line solider.
Hmm. Guess I'm lucky then. Dad was a Navy pilot, and Mom was in the Navy as well. She did stuff I don't have access or clearance too. I assume it was higher level Intel work than me. Both are still fairly young: Dad's only 55, and Mom's not even 50 yet. They're plenty good to do what they need to do. Dad keeps himself in tip top shape, and Mom's looking good too. Don't much care about anyone on Mom's side of the family. My cousin's a member of his precinct's Special Weapons and Tactics. He'll be useful. Beyond that, Mom doesn't even like her side of the family. Dad's could be a problem; his brother is a lawyer, but his wife is a nurse. That's useful. Problem is, they also have two daughters, my cousins', aged 4 and 15 months. Plus, his dad has medical issues. His mom would be alright: she was a CNA back in the day, but Granddad might be too much of a burden.
I hate the term collateral damage. People are not collateral.
Yeah, they are.
Yeah, they are.
You know, what you can do is what Illium did: specifically target Reaper troop transports and processor ships before they reach the planet. Their capital ships will be intact still, but you'd slow down the harvesting process as much as possible, destroying any husks made on previously-harvested worlds before they can be deployed, all without obliterating your own colonies and in so doing breaking your own army's morale. It'd keep everyone looking at the Reapers as their enemy instead of wanting to turn their guns on superiors who are ordering them to kill their own families.
You said you'd turn your guns on the Alliance officers who ordered you to kill Miranda. By telling your military to target your own civilians, you're ordering them to do exactly what, by your own admission, would drive you to mutiny.
And then what do I do? Once their troop ships are destroyed, then what? Let the Reapers that live indoctrinate and harvest themselves? They have the same capability as the harvester ships. I'd imagine they'd have too. It's just not their focus. What would I do then with the survivors? How would my armies fight?
The Reapers are their enemy. Killing me and people who listen isn't going to change that. And killing me isn't going to save their families. It's going to damn them.
Technically, I wouldn't be ordered to do a thing. I'm not taking their orders, they're taking mine. That said, yeah, it is a double standard. If they don't kill their own families, I will, or the Reapers will. They can't hope to beat the Reapers without me, so they won't kill me. And if they do, I'll die content knowing that they just shot themselves in both feet and both hands. My interests needs outweigh their lives. I have the power. They don't. There's not a damn thing they can do about their situation. They either obey me or fail. I'll let them decide what's worse. Sure, maybe it assuages their conscious. Great. Did it stop the Reapers? Nope. Fat lot of good that was.
No, they are not. Not unless you've been brain washed to think of them like that of course through constant references to civilian casualties as being collateral damage.
They are collateral damage. I wasn't ever brainwashed. I don't view people as having intrinsic value. I place value on people I love. Humans are just meatbags of fleshy, watery matter that happen to have an electro-chemical ability to briefly move on their own without external force or stimuli. Pretty odd, considering I'm actually approached for how to deal with people a lot. Ironic; I'm actually considered a people person, when I view them as just moving matter.
Why do you place value in them? Do you think you've been brainwashed into ascribing a type of intrinsic value that can't be measured onto humans?
And then what do I do? Once their troop ships are destroyed, then what? Let the Reapers that live indoctrinate and harvest themselves? They have the same capability as the harvester ships. I'd imagine they'd have too. It's just not their focus. What would I do then with the survivors? How would my armies fight?
The Reapers are their enemy. Killing me and people who listen isn't going to change that. And killing me isn't going to save their families. It's going to damn them.
Technically, I wouldn't be ordered to do a thing. I'm not taking their orders, they're taking mine. That said, yeah, it is a double standard. If they don't kill their own families, I will, or the Reapers will. They can't hope to beat the Reapers without me, so they won't kill me. And if they do, I'll die content knowing that they just shot themselves in both feet and both hands. My interests needs outweigh their lives. I have the power. They don't. There's not a damn thing they can do about their situation. They either obey me or fail. I'll let them decide what's worse. Sure, maybe it assuages their conscious. Great. Did it stop the Reapers? Nope. Fat lot of good that was.
So basically what you're saying is blindly follow someone who is asking you to murder your own family or die free with those they love at their side. Yeah like others have said you're going to have a very hard time getting people to follow you. You're living in a power fantasy, your needs are not my needs and my needs are not yours. What makes your needs more important than mine. You keep saying there is nothing they can do, but you're wrong they can fight on their own terms they can die on their own terms. You have all the power, but for how long? If no one is in your corner what do you have; plans for the crucible well guess what the people who don't agree with your ideals most likely have them to. We have seen multiple occasions in the game where Reapers aren't the only enemy and by acting like a tyrannical dictator you're bound to make just about everyone in the galaxy your enemy.
Returning to the topic, I'm going to say something even more inflammatory than anything MassivelyEffective0730 has said: Ready? I think the most poorly written scene in the series was Tali's loyalty mission. *runs and hides*
Presumably the scene where you P/R the admirals?
So basically what you're saying is blindly follow someone who is asking you to murder your own family or die free with those they love at their side. Yeah like others have said you're going to have a very hard time getting people to follow you. You're living in a power fantasy, your needs are not my needs and my needs are not yours. What makes your needs more important than mine. You keep saying there is nothing they can do, but you're wrong they can fight on their own terms they can die on their own terms. You have all the power, but for how long? If no one is in your corner what do you have; plans for the crucible well guess what the people who don't agree with your ideals most likely have them to. We have seen multiple occasions in the game where Reapers aren't the only enemy and by acting like a tyrannical dictator you're bound to make just about everyone in the galaxy your enemy.
I'm offering them a way out. I'm being tyrannical, yes. I'd imagine it's better than the alternative with the Reapers. They can try to use the Crucible, but the game makes it pretty clear that the key to victory is Shepard. Which is me. So if they want to live, then they can shut up and get behind me. If they want a future at all, they can shut up and get behind me. They can die free if they choose. It's some kind of moral or ethical victory for them. I'd imagine and hope people wouldn't be so stupid and weak as to give up survival just because they hate the taste its coming in. My needs are more important because I'm in power. Because I'm willing to keep my needs a reality, no matter what. There's nothing intrinsically more valuable about my needs over others. Which is why I'm all the more willing to trounce on others to keep them real. It's them, or me, and I will not let the weakness of others get in the way of my strength and survival. And since I have all the power, I can afford to be everyone's enemy. They can't afford to be mine.
And if they think otherwise, I'll step to the side, hand them the keys to the Crucible, and tell them good luck against the Reapers. It'll be amusing, to say the least, to see how far their 'individuality', their 'freedom', their 'conscious', and their 'morality' gets them.
Presumably the scene where you P/R the admirals?
Yeah, I'm not quite getting this either, but whatever tickles your pickle mate.
I'm offering them a way out. I'm being tyrannical, yes. I'd imagine it's better than the alternative with the Reapers. They can try to use the Crucible, but the game makes it pretty clear that the key to victory is Shepard. Which is me. So if they want to live, then they can shut up and get behind me. If they want a future at all, they can shut up and get behind me. They can die free if they choose. It's some kind of moral or ethical victory for them. I'd imagine and hope people wouldn't be so stupid and weak as to give up survival just because they hate the taste its coming in. My needs are more important because I'm in power. Because I'm willing to keep my needs a reality, no matter what. There's nothing intrinsically more valuable about my needs over others. Which is why I'm all the more willing to trounce on others to keep them real. It's them, or me, and I will not let the weakness of others get in the way of my strength and survival. And since I have all the power, I can afford to be everyone's enemy. They can't afford to be mine.
And if they think otherwise, I'll step to the side, hand them the keys to the Crucible, and tell them good luck against the Reapers. It'll be amusing, to say the least, to see how far their 'individuality', their 'freedom', their 'conscious', and their 'morality' gets them.
Shepard's job is to unite the races you're not doing that if you're acting the way you are. Now all the alien races see that their fears of humanity being overly aggressive are real. You've also done a bang up job of destroying any human support you had by making people who have already lost so much lose more to fit your sadistic agenda. Also I want to point out canonically Shepard is playing the role of a diplomat; telling people that's it's your way or the highway isn't how diplomacy works. You need compromise without it you have disorder you have chaos. Once again you don't have power without people to back it up. If I recall at the beginning of ME3 you have no major allies, you have no support except that of your crew. You go around acting like a straight up dictator you will never get what you want. You seem to have this idea that people will willingly conform to your twisted ideals, but very few people are willing to do that. You sound like one of those athletes that get suspended for a game and then sit on the bench saying "Those guys are nothing without me. Without me they can't win" and when they do win you get all pissy about it. Despite what you may think the galaxy does not revolve around you and when people are faced with impossible odds they are capable of just about anything.
That's a problem to deal with, and it scares me: That's why part of me completely agrees with the ideal of having Cerberus shock troops who will obey me without question or hesitation. If my own people don't have the will to be evil, to be monsters themselves, then how can I hope to pit them against Reapers and win. Yeah, I think the shock troops were a good idea, as long as they could be controlled. Absolute obedience is a must. I would question my troops on why they would have the confidence to follow me if I didn't have the capability to do what I needed to do. I wouldn't be worth following if I didn't. Either they don't have the package to do what I tell them, or I don't have the capability to win the war. Being a hero, being some kind of savior, it's not going to protect them against the Reapers. I'm not going to win, nor do I deserve to win being anything less than what I am. They need to steel themselves from compassion and humanity. They need to be just as machine-like and robotic as the Reapers they fight, if not more so. Hell, that's why I'd want a Clone Army from Star Wars, or a Droid Army, one of absolute competence, and one of absolute obedience. I'm a terrible leader if I can't trust them to do what I need them too, and I'm a terrible leader if I can't do what I need to do.
But that's the thing about utilitarian calculation: You have to decide what to do on the basis of the facts on the ground, on the basis of how things are rather than how you feel they ought to be. The only armies we're getting are the ones who aren't by and large the kind of people Colonel Kurtz describes; they're going to have their feelings, their morals, and their emotional attachments, and there's nothing we can do to make them stop having these things. If you can't make it work with those guys, then you can't win the war.
Presumably the scene where you P/R the admirals?
If I'm being completely honest, I intensely dislike the entire mission from start to finish. When I play it, I just space bar through the whole thing as quickly as possible. But that's a whole other rant I don't know if I should repeat here. I was mostly just trying to bring levity to what was otherwise a very serious discussion.
But that's the thing about utilitarian calculation: You have to decide what to do on the basis of the facts on the ground, on the basis of how things are rather than how you feel they ought to be. The only armies we're getting are the ones who aren't by and large the kind of people Colonel Kurtz describes; they're going to have their feelings, their morals, and their emotional attachments, and there's nothing we can do to make them stop having these things. If you can't make it work with those guys, then you can't win the war.
No, I can't. And that's what frightens me. How would I motivate said people to truly fight the way I need them too? I honestly believe I'd be damned to failure with that lot. The facts on the ground for me are that the people I have are too weak willed to challenge the Reapers.
The facts on the ground are that I'm going to be let down by my armies because they can't or won't do what it takes to win. And I will have failed them as a leader since I couldn't lead them to victory.
How am I to make it work with them? They're focusing on their fleeting attachments, things the Reapers will use to their own advantage against them. It's not a matter of being MacGuyver anymore. A true pragmatist will work with what he has. But unfortunately, it's not enough.
It just makes me admire the Reapers that much more. They really are the perfect killing machines. To not only turn us against each other, but to turn our own ideals against us. And on such a scale that it people couldn't adapt towards the greater good. And the only people willing to adopt my views have been indoctrinated. We're pretty much boned.
Not according to the planet description of Illium, they don't. Reaper efforts in that system were greatly hampered because they had to start rebuilding their ground forces again from scratch.And then what do I do? Once their troop ships are destroyed, then what? Let the Reapers that live indoctrinate and harvest themselves? They have the same capability as the harvester ships. I'd imagine they'd have too. It's just not their focus. What would I do then with the survivors? How would my armies fight?
"I've never known Victus to lie. Play fast and loose with strategy, maybe, but betray an ally? Not his style. And if he did try, well... we'll just find another Primarch."The Reapers are their enemy. Killing me and people who listen isn't going to change that. And killing me isn't going to save their families. It's going to damn them.
Technically, I wouldn't be ordered to do a thing. I'm not taking their orders, they're taking mine. That said, yeah, it is a double standard. If they don't kill their own families, I will, or the Reapers will. They can't hope to beat the Reapers without me, so they won't kill me. And if they do, I'll die content knowing that they just shot themselves in both feet and both hands. My interests needs outweigh their lives. I have the power. They don't. There's not a damn thing they can do about their situation. They either obey me or fail. I'll let them decide what's worse. Sure, maybe it assuages their conscious. Great. Did it stop the Reapers? Nope. Fat lot of good that was.
Not according to the planet description of Illium, they don't. Reaper efforts in that system were greatly hampered because they had to start rebuilding their ground forces again from scratch.
Leaving worlds to be harvested slows the Reapers down. Forcing them to start over with each world they concentrate on by eliminating the ground force they assembled at the last world while it's still in space slows them down even more.
"I've never known Victus to lie. Play fast and loose with strategy, maybe, but betray an ally? Not his style. And if he did try, well... we'll just find another Primarch."
I think you're letting the power fantasy go to your head. They're taking your orders, yes - and you're taking Hackett's. He gave you the title of ambassador plenipotentiary on behalf of the Systems Alliance, and he could take it away just as easily if your actions and methods turned half the galaxy against you (thus hindering the Crucible effort). If you get zapped retrieving a heating unit for a clutch of salarian eggs, he'll give the title to someone else and the war will go on without Shepard. You know I'm not a student of the Davidian school of Heroism™, as you seem to be here. All that's unique to Shepard is some fancy cybernetics, personal history, and the Cipher - none of which are intrinsic to defeating the Reapers. Shepard isn't building the Crucible, and isn't a required component to activate it. That he was the one to reach the beam was pure dumb luck; anyone can shoot a tube.
What do you think would happen if you told Joker to take the ship to Tiptree so you could nuke it when he tells you it's undefended and under attack?
Then the Reapers are slowed down. Don't know what I'd do then. It slows them down to start again, yeah, but it still leaves the problem of civilians and refugees to be taken. Even if they do distract the Reapers, they're going to catch up to them eventually.
As I've said, the game is kinda clear on who the hero of the story is and it being a power fantasy. For the other choices, really the Catalyst makes it semi-clear that only Shepard can activate them. I'm inclined to believe it would only manifest itself to Shepard. Without Shepard, the galaxy is lost. Hackett can try and fight, but he's not going to win. I disagree with the notion of anyone else being able to fight the war and win. It really is just Shepard who can do it. Shepard is intrinsically important to the war effort. It's a power fantasy. Why shouldn't he be?
I don't call it betraying allies. I call it sacrificing them to the cause. But yes, I'm more than willing to throw my allies under the bus if it serves my purpose of stopping the Reapers. If it costs their lives to achieve the goal of stopping the Reapers, then yes I'd do it. I've never understood why people are so big on that. The mission comes first. It always comes first, be I the only survivor. No cost is too great, no sacrifice to high. But I do believe in utility. I'm not going to carelessly throw away allies over a Salarian heating clutch.
He'd freak out, and I'd probably be forced to snap his neck. Then EDI would probably kill me, and the colony would be lost anyway, along with the one chance at destroying or stopping the Reapers. Or I'd shut down EDI and get on with things. Or, even more likely, I'd talk down Joker when he freaks out.
Realistically, I wouldn't go to Tiptree though.
Not according to the planet description of Illium, they don't. Reaper efforts in that system were greatly hampered because they had to start rebuilding their ground forces again from scratch.
Leaving worlds to be harvested slows the Reapers down; glassing them simply makes them pack up and move to the next one - you lose ground faster. Forcing them to start over with each world they concentrate on by eliminating the ground force they assembled at the last world while it's still in space slows them down even more.
That's not to say it'd work every time, of course. If the Reapers shift tactics (and I've seen little indication that they do), so, to, must we.
True.
Ilium decided to fire on the reaper troop carriers and processing ships instead of the Capital ships delaying the harvest. That would be one of many things that could lead to a conventional victory. You send a few fleets to be responsible to take out the those ships. Will the rwapers catch on to what your doing? Sure. But that's why you adapt and overcome
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