1765 réponses à ce sujet

[Steelcan]

That's very simple and obvious, Steelcan. People band together to protects themselves when they have to. Like cattle, really. They share in delusions, so they share in their 'defense.' Which unfortunately includes such incredibly tedious measures as feigning laughter.

So why do people outside of our little Clique also tend to agree with us over you.

So we are all tricking ourselves and deluding ourselves into believing whatever it is you think we believe, its inconceivable that maybe, just maybe you are mistaken about this as you are so many other things, like basic biology, physics, history, logical argument, or thematic interpretation?

[MassivelyEffective0730]

This discussion sorts of highlights why the Reapers are a poorly conceived antagonist, they're exactly the type of "can't be reasoned with, doesn't feel pity, remorse, or fear" enemy whose existence justifies pretty much any action on the part of the player no matter how insane by any other measure.  Escapism is nice, but allowing people to indulge in such an extreme power fantasy where your Shepard is practically this living god is not really healthy nor does it make for the most compelling storyline.  That choices exist shouldn't mean that you can get everything to go exactly the way you want all of the time.

 

Well now, this is an answer I can get behind. Notionally, yes I do exactly believe everything I say. But realistically, I'm never going to practice it. I'd have no need too, and without a need too, no compulsion. That's not to say I'd act any less in my position. But realistically, I don't need to make a triage plan for how many people live and die globally when I'm leading and creating a patrol base against the Taliban in the Korangal Valley.

[Vigilant111]

This discussion sorts of highlights why the Reapers are a poorly conceived antagonist, they're exactly the type of "can't be reasoned with, doesn't feel pity, remorse, or fear" enemy whose existence justifies pretty much any action on the part of the player no matter how insane by any other measure.  Escapism is nice, but allowing people to indulge in such an extreme power fantasy where your Shepard is practically this living god is not really healthy nor does it make for the most compelling storyline.  That choices exist shouldn't mean that you can get everything to go exactly the way you want all of the time.

 

I don't see my Shepard in that way, but I do agree that the game provides facility to "feed" this kind of mentality, it is like a video game designed for brutal opportunists

[MassivelyEffective0730]

I don't see my Shepard in that way, but I do agree that the game provides facility to "feed" this kind of mentality, it is like a video game designed for brutal opportunists

 

I'm different in that I am technically always this way, but merely never have use or need for that aspect of my opinions to manifest. This gives me time and ability to do so.

[Bob from Accounting]

This discussion sorts of highlights why the Reapers are a poorly conceived antagonist, they're exactly the type of "can't be reasoned with, doesn't feel pity, remorse, or fear" enemy whose existence justifies pretty much any action on the part of the player no matter how insane by any other measure.  Escapism is nice, but allowing people to indulge in such an extreme power fantasy where your Shepard is practically this living god is not really healthy nor does it make for the most compelling storyline.  That choices exist shouldn't mean that you can get everything to go exactly the way you want all of the time.

 

That is just completely ridiculous.

 

Have you played a game with choices before? Ever? Pretty much all of them allow the player to do stupid and psychotic things without really being punished. That has nothing to do with the Reapers and everything to do with a video game being a video game.

 

If you think it's 'not healthy' to have that, you can join the arguments that have been going around for years that it's bad for people to be able to slaughter innocent civilians in games. But don't try and clumsily pretend this is an issue of the Reapers. It ain't.

[Vigilant111]

I'm different in that I am technically always this way, but merely never have use or need for that aspect of my opinions to manifest. This gives me time and ability to do so.

 

Well, I am glad that you have found an outlet like this to exercise your values and ideas, and hopefully, we won't see you do it in the real world

[Bob from Accounting]

Well, I am glad that you have found an outlet like this to exercise your values and ideas, and hopefully, we won't see you do it in the real world

 

These 'values' are only capable of existing in an arena with no requirements for competence and no consequences for actions. Such as a video game and online forum. They're far too weak and fragile to exist in the real world.

 

And thus, they don't. Hence why there are absolute scores of people who gleefully advocate murder online who are mild and meek in real life.

[DeinonSlayer]

I'm different in that I am technically always this way, but merely never have use or need for that aspect of my opinions to manifest. This gives me time and ability to do so.

Does anyone else remember those "Situation: ____________" polls I used to post?

Most of us will never experience a situation in our lives where we have to make the kinds of decisions regularly depicted in this medium. It's fair to say we don't know how many of our own elected leaders will react, because they haven't faced these situations, and the principles that have served them well up to that point in their everyday lives don't apply.

I think it's fascinating to see people try to explain their underlying thought processes, flaws and all.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Well, I am glad that you have found an outlet like this to exercise your values and ideas, and hopefully, we won't see you do it in the real world

 

If I do it, I do it. If I don't, I don't. Personally, I think this worlds overpopulated as it is. But that's just me. I don't know though. 

[TheOneTrueBioticGod]

The believing that Shepard is absolutely critical to the war falls under the same fallacy that so many of my fellow Star Wars fans have about the value of a Jedi in a war. 

Shepard is, still, the absolute best person for the job. Everything in a single package. However, that still doesn't mean anything. The Normandy would fare almost as well with Garrus leading the military side and some skilled diplomat gathering allies. Shepard is still just a single human. She isn't some legendary, chosen by the gods hero like in the Elder Scrolls. 

You know what's more important than Shepard? Any fleet. Even a small flotilla has more unique value to the war than Shepard. 20 ships aren't replaceable when your leaders are throwing every single chip they have into a project they don't even know the point of. A single commando is. 

You could put the following people in charge of the Normandy and get the same result:
Garrus
Javik
Anderson
Miranda
Vasir
etc

Shepard is just human. A very unique human, but human nonetheless. 

 

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Does anyone else remember those "Situation: ____________" polls I used to post?

Most of us will never experience a situation in our lives where we have to make the kinds of decisions regularly depicted in this medium. It's fair to say we don't know how many of our own elected leaders will react, because they haven't faced these situations, and the principles that have served them well up to that point in their everyday lives don't apply.

I think it's fascinating to see people try to explain their underlying thought processes, flaws and all.

 

I've faced some pretty wicked situations. It sucks at the time, but looking back, I wouldn't want to be anywhere else.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

The believing that Shepard is absolutely critical to the war falls under the same fallacy that so many of my fellow Star Wars fans have about the value of a Jedi in a war. 

Shepard is, still, the absolute best person for the job. Everything in a single package. However, that still doesn't mean anything. The Normandy would fare almost as well with Garrus leading the military side and some skilled diplomat gathering allies. Shepard is still just a single human. She isn't some legendary, chosen by the gods hero like in the Elder Scrolls. 

You know what's more important than Shepard? Any fleet. Even a small flotilla has more unique value to the war than Shepard. 20 ships aren't replaceable when your leaders are throwing every single chip they have into a project they don't even know the point of. A single commando is. 

You could put the following people in charge of the Normandy and get the same result:
Garrus
Javik
Anderson
Miranda
Vasir
etc

Shepard is just human. A very unique human, but human nonetheless. 

 

 

I guess I fall under that fallacy then: A single Jedi is worth an entire fleet, at least. If It's someone truly powerful, like Revan or Luke or Sidious, then he alone is worth more than the entire military he commands or leads. And I do feel the same about Shepard. I do feel that Shepard is the only person who can stop the Reapers with the Crucible. It's a power fantasy, yes, but there it is. Or the Doctor and the TARDIS. He alone can make entire armies turn and run. The Oncoming Storm, the Bringer Of Darkness, etc.

[KaiserShep]

Sidious was never a Jedi, if I remember correctly, but it doesn't matter. The circumstances in which he became the emperor were so mind-bogglingly stupid that it even poisons the superior Clone Wars animated series.

[ImaginaryMatter]

It's interesting that, from what I've seen, people who romanced Miranda tend to dislike 'heroic' characters and supposedly 'idealistic' decisions, when her character exists in a very great part to support those two things.

 

Perhaps they're oblivious to it.

 

Come on guys. David is like Beetlejuice. If we evoke his name too many times he shows up and ruins our days with stupid crap like this.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Sidious was never a Jedi, if I remember correctly, but it doesn't matter. The circumstances in which he became the emperor were so mind-bogglingly stupid that it even poisons the superior Clone Wars animated series.

 

He has the ability to roflstomp entire fleets on his own. As for Revan, Canderous Ordo outright states that believes that it was Revan alone who stopped the Mandalorians, not his Republic Fleets. Same with the Sith Emperor, who regarded Revan as a greater threat than the entirety of the Jedi Order. Or for Luke, who Sidious was willing to send millions of Imperials to their deaths for just to turn him to the Dark Side, or Caedus, who regarded him as a greater threat than an entire battle fleet assembling to fight him. Or Abeloth, who focused all of her attention on stopping Luke (and failing) after she casually beat down various Jedi and Sith fighting simultaneously against her. Hell, throw Jaina Solo into the mix. The Vong held her to be a greater threat than even Luke. 

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Come on guys. David is like Beetlejuice. If we evoke his name too many times he shows up and ruins our days with stupid crap like this.

 

Bloody Mary killer someone. Bloody Mary killed someone.

[TheOneTrueBioticGod]

I guess I fall under that fallacy then: A single Jedi is worth an entire fleet, at least. If It's someone truly powerful, like Revan or Luke or Sidious, then he alone is worth more than the entire military he commands or leads. And I do feel the same about Shepard. I do feel that Shepard is the only person who can stop the Reapers with the Crucible. It's a power fantasy, yes, but there it is. Or the Doctor and the TARDIS. He alone can make entire armies turn and run. The Oncoming Storm, the Bringer Of Darkness, etc.

Just saying, Revan would be the one commanding the fleets. 

If I'm in charge of a galactic war, and I have to choose between a specialized commando or a fleet, I'm picking a fleet. A Jedi cannot fight a fleet. Only fleets can fight fleets. The Jedi didn't beat the Yuuzhan Vong, the GA's fleets and Ackbar's plan did. 

I've been in arguments about who would win in a fight between Revan and other characters. Really, Revan would be on his flagship ordering an orbital strike. That's how he'd win any fight. 

Shepard can't destroy a Reaper, but a collection of ships can. Shepard can't build the crucible. Scientists and engineers and technicians can. 

[KaiserShep]

*pours a forty for Star Wars*

[TheOneTrueBioticGod]

He has the ability to roflstomp entire fleets on his own. As for Revan, Canderous Ordo outright states that believes that it was Revan alone who stopped the Mandalorians, not his Republic Fleets. Same with the Sith Emperor, who regarded Revan as a greater threat than the entirety of the Jedi Order. Or for Luke, who Sidious was willing to send millions of Imperials to their deaths for just to turn him to the Dark Side, or Caedus, who regarded him as a greater threat than an entire battle fleet assembling to fight him. Or Abeloth, who focused all of her attention on stopping Luke (and failing) after she casually beat down various Jedi and Sith fighting simultaneously against her. Hell, throw Jaina Solo into the mix. The Vong held her to be a greater threat than even Luke. 

Revan commanded the fleets. It wasn't his abilities in the Force that enabled him to beat the Mandalorians, it was his tactical and logistical mind. 

You know what would've been an easier way to defeat Caedus? Just destroy the Anakin Solo. He dies in an explosion without his fleet protecting his ship. 

They thought Jaina was a goddess. 

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Just saying, Revan would be the one commanding the fleets. 

If I'm in charge of a galactic war, and I have to choose between a specialized commando or a fleet, I'm picking a fleet. A Jedi cannot fight a fleet. Only fleets can fight fleets. The Jedi didn't beat the Yuuzhan Vong, the GA's fleets and Ackbar's plan did. 

I've been in arguments about who would win in a fight between Revan and other characters. Really, Revan would be on his flagship ordering an orbital strike. That's how he'd win any fight. 

Shepard can't destroy a Reaper, but a collection of ships can. Shepard can't build the crucible. Scientists and engineers and technicians can. 

 

Sidious seems to disagree on that one. Granted, he's a Sith, but still. He was roflstomping entire New Republic fleets with his Force Vortex.

 

 

And Corran Horn made entire fleets flee when he used his abilities. 

 

I disagree about Shepard: He's the one activating the Crucible and using it. Plus, the series makes it pretty clear who the guy who's going to win is. It's Shepard. You can credit it as a collective victory if you like. I view him alone as being the engine that pushes everyone and everything else over the top of the hill.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Revan commanded the fleets. It wasn't his abilities in the Force that enabled him to beat the Mandalorians, it was his tactical and logistical mind. 

You know what would've been an easier way to defeat Caedus? Just destroy the Anakin Solo. He dies in an explosion without his fleet protecting his ship. 

They thought Jaina was a goddess. 

 

I never mentioned Caedus. I mentioned Luke, and Caedus' reaction him. Caedus regarded him as a greater threat than an entire GA Fleet assaulting his ship.

 

As for Revan, I'm not mentioning his Force abilities. I'm mentioning his talents. The Mandalorians view that he alone was responsible for their defeat. Put literally any other being in the galaxy at that time against them in Revan's spot and the Mandalorians would have walked away victorious.

[TheOneTrueBioticGod]

Sidious seems to disagree on that one. Granted, he's a Sith, but still. He was roflstomping entire New Republic fleets with his Force Vortex.

 

 

And Corran Horn made entire fleets flee when he used his abilities. 

 

I disagree about Shepard: He's the one activating the Crucible and using it. Plus, the series makes it pretty clear who the guy who's going to win is. It's Shepard. You can credit it as a collective victory if you like. I view him alone as being the engine that pushes everyone and everything else over the top of the hill.

Haven't read that series. Heard it was ridiculous, and I didn't want to spend much money on it. Admittedly, I try to avoid most instances where the Force is made out to be some superweapon where someone can destroy a fleet with a flick of his fingers. Nihilus destroying Katarr with a ritual I buy, those events I don't like.

But others could too. She's not the only one who can or will. 

[TheOneTrueBioticGod]

I never mentioned Caedus. I mentioned Luke, and Caedus' reaction him. Caedus regarded him as a greater threat than an entire GA Fleet assaulting his ship.

 

As for Revan, I'm not mentioning his Force abilities. I'm mentioning his talents. The Mandalorians view that he alone was responsible for their defeat. Put literally any other being in the galaxy at that time against them in Revan's spot and the Mandalorians would have walked away victorious.

Caedus was a bit foolish then. 

Exactly. Using Revan to explain why your random Jedi is worth more than a ship is null. 

Side note: put Revan in charge of the war effort against the Reapers and he'd kick their asses back to darkspace in a matter of months. 

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Haven't read that series. Heard it was ridiculous, and I didn't want to spend much money on it. Admittedly, I try to avoid most instances where the Force is made out to be some superweapon where someone can destroy a fleet with a flick of his fingers. Nihilus destroying Katarr with a ritual I buy, those events I don't like.

But others could too. She's not the only one who can or will. 

 

I don't mind that kind of power or capability in a single person's hands. Hell, I wish I had said powers. I've found people's acceptance for that kind of power in fiction does have some correlation to their own views on power and authority.

 

As I said, the game was clear that Shepard alone was going to be the only one capable of stopping the Reapers. I wish they made it more so, and I wish they made it clearer and more explicit.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Caedus was a bit foolish then. 

Exactly. Using Revan to explain why your random Jedi is worth more than a ship is null. 

Side note: put Revan in charge of the war effort against the Reapers and he'd kick their asses back to darkspace in a matter of months. 

 

I disagree. His fear was perfectly justified. I'd be more scared of Luke than a fleet. Mainly because he whomped the fleet, but got whomped by Luke in turn.

 

Ah, but that's only for Revan. Until Karen Traviss came along, it was shown that an average Jedi was worth 100 Clone Troopers. A high-powered or important Jedi was worth an entire fleet. Any Council member is going to be worth a fleet. Yoda alone is worth a sector.

 

If he used his abilities, maybe. Otherwise, he'd be technologically outmatched. The Doctor on the other hand...

 

The Doctor, with a day of prep time, would solo the Reapers in a matter of minutes.