1765 réponses à ce sujet

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

OBEY.

 

It's amazing how off topic this thread has gone. This is why I love BSN. I'm waiting for my potatoes to finish heating, then I'm going to make some eggs, and then I'm going to play 18 holes of golf. 

[MassivelyEffective0730]

WAR IS PEACE

FREEDOM IS SLAVERY

IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH

 

How exactly do you distinguish yourself from the reapers with this kind of rationale?

 

I don't mean to be smug but do you admire the reapers?

 

Yes, I do. I really do admire the Reapers. I respect them as well.

 

I already gave you a quote of my opinion of them:

 

You still don't understand what you're dealing with, do you? Perfect organism. Its structural perfection is matched only by its hostility. I admire it's purity. A survivor... unclouded by conscience, remorse, or delusions of morality.

— Ash, Alien

 

I don't hate them. I really don't. I fight them because, simply put, it's them or me. And it's not going to be me. It's a legitimate conflict of interests, an irreconcilable difference between we two entities.

 

Ender Wiggin again:

 

In the moment when I truly understand my enemy, understand him well enough to defeat him, then in that very moment I also love him. I think it's impossible to really understand somebody, what they want, what they believe, and not love them the way they love themselves. And then, in that very moment when I love them... I destroy them. I make it impossible for them to ever hurt me again. I grind them and grind them until they don't exist.

 

 

Simply put, I'm not out to exterminate every living being in the galaxy. It's not my main purpose. Hell, if the Reapers weren't around, I'd have no reason to detach myself from inhibitions.

[Bob from Accounting]

the heart of the debate has been centered around 1) the ethics of killing civilians/scorching the earth and 2) ethics aside, the viability of such tactics on their own terms.

 

Yes. And right here, the viability for the 'Renegade' viewpoint is automatically deemed to be 'I can always do it because I'm the ultimate badass and most powerful person ever, ever and everyone bows down to me.' It has to. Without it, it collapses.

 

So I mean...what more is there to debate? Seems pretty cut and dry to me. 

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Yes. And right here, the viability for the 'Renegade' viewpoint is automatically deemed to be 'I can always do it because I'm the ultimate badass and most powerful person ever, ever and everyone bows down to me.' It has to. Without it, it collapses.

 

So I mean...what more is there to debate? Seems pretty cut and dry to me. 

 

That's not the Renegade ideal at all. Just your strawman of it.

[Bob from Accounting]

It's not meant to be the ideal. Merely the requirements of it.

[von uber]

Renegade / Paragon is a load of contrived bollocks anyway.

[Bob from Accounting]

Is that right? And why is that?

[Iakus]

Is that right? And why is that?

 

Too binary

[von uber]

Is that right? And why is that?

 

Yes, there is no nuance. Even worse, you are generally forced down one path and not the other (which they fixed in ME3 to some extent).

[CronoDragoon]

Yes. And right here, the viability for the 'Renegade' viewpoint is automatically deemed to be 'I can always do it because I'm the ultimate badass and most powerful person ever, ever and everyone bows down to me.' It has to. Without it, it collapses.

 

So I mean...what more is there to debate? Seems pretty cut and dry to me. 

 

Do you think "Renegade" is an actual ethical system that's in textbooks or something? No one said Renegade the entire time I was in here.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Yes, there is no nuance. Even worse, you are generally forced down one path and not the other (which they fixed in ME3 to some extent).

 

When one has a world view in black or white, like our friend to whom you responded, there is no nuance.

[Bob from Accounting]

Whatever you'd like to call it. It hardly deserves words such as 'pragmatic' or 'rational' or really even 'ruthless.' And I suppose you'd frown on 'evil' or 'incompetent' or 'stupid' as I would prefer using. Renegade is as good of a neutral label as anything I can think of. If you have suggestions, I'm open to them.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Pragmatic is not evil. It is dealing with things sensibly and realistically in a way that is based on practical rather than theoretical considerations. 

 

Idealism on the other hand can be good or evil. It can also be neutral. It is restricted by its own set of rules.

 

Even evil people tend to not see themselves as evil. 

 

Making morality systems work in a game is very difficult. 

 

In a story, I can make an evil character likable by giving him a couple of qualities: one of them being honesty, and the other is the capacity to love. They can do despicable things and readers will like the character. But how do you work out a system that accounts for this in a game? I don't really think you can.

[SwobyJ]

OBEY.

 

It's amazing how off topic this thread has gone. This is why I love BSN. I'm waiting for my potatoes to finish heating, then I'm going to make some eggs, and then I'm going to play 18 holes of golf. 

 

I'm playing Warframe and reading this in between matches. And drinking tea. And about to make a salad . And maybe go on a run later. Hi!

[SwobyJ]

Is that right? And why is that?

 

Best David quote ^

[Steelcan]

Gorram it David, BSN collectively loses IQ points whenever you log on

[SwobyJ]

That's just silly, he has many funny quotes. The fact that you think that he has just one is terrible.

 

Ridiculous.

[KaiserShep]

Yes, there is no nuance. Even worse, you are generally forced down one path and not the other (which they fixed in ME3 to some extent).

I think they fixed renegade a great deal in ME3. I can lean more renegade than paragon without resorting to making Shepard look like a psychojerk.

[ImaginaryMatter]

Renegade in ME3, apart from asking for Shepard's particular stance on an issue (like Geth or Quarian) I found to be a lot like the neutral options.

[Reorte]

Pragmatic is not evil. It is dealing with things sensibly and realistically in a way that is based on practical rather than theoretical considerations.

Which can have evil consequences. The most practical way of dealing with a lot of the real problems we have here today would be to kill off a good chunk of the world's population.

 

You can't avoid ethical considerations and just consider practicality or pragmatism - pragmatic to what end? Whether anything or not is worth doing ultimately boils down to a value judgement. A choice may be seen as pragmatic for our survival, but that very survival is, again, an ideal (albeit one few would argue with).

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Ridiculous.

 

No.

[Bob from Accounting]

Gorram it David, BSN collectively loses IQ points whenever you log on

 

Boy, is that the truth.

 

My name's Bob. Not David.

[KaiserShep]

My name's Bob. Not David.

 

I'm the bloody queen of Antiva.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Which can have evil consequences. The most practical way of dealing with a lot of the real problems we have here today would be to kill off a good chunk of the world's population.

 

You can't avoid ethical considerations and just consider practicality or pragmatism - pragmatic to what end? Whether anything or not is worth doing ultimately boils down to a value judgement. A choice may be seen as pragmatic for our survival, but that very survival is, again, an ideal (albeit one few would argue with).

 

But everything can have evil consequences, right? You just view pragmatism as evil. I don't. I am a pragmatist, not an idealist. Most idealists don't know s*** from Shinola (that's a shoe polish) and their agenda can screw with the way I want to live my life. They don't understand the practicalities of day to day living and trying to make ends meet on a budget. But that's not what we're talking about here. We're talking about this thing called a Reaper War.

 

In a war one protects strategic assets: the things that one would have great difficulty replacing. Other things are expendable. That's the hard truth, and that's the way wars are fought. What is more important? Defending your homeworld or defending the place where you're building the Crucible? You'll probably want to put up a token defense like with the Krogan on Palaven to keep the Reapers thinking you're fighting "the good fight" when in fact they're cannon fodder buying time for you to finish the Crucible.