Would the conversation of been different, no matter how slight, if Liara told Ashley(especially if Ash is your LI) she gave Shepard's body to Cerberus.
Maybe, maybe not. I don't think that's the kind of thing she, or anyone, would divulge under the circumstances unless the program actually got results, though.
My opinion is, in order for bioware to make ME2, it had to dismiss the reaper threat and turn everyone who knew about it into an idiot, in order for the plot to make sense. Liara doesn't care, Ashley doesn't care, tali, garrus, wrex, shepard, TIM anyone...
They contorted the setting to prop up railroading Shepard into joining a terrorist organization because someone at BioWare (I think we know who) couldn't handle just letting Cerberus rest with Mass Effect 1 or that the first game had better set them up as enemies if the group was to continue in the series.
In ME1, they were a rogue Alliance covert ops group that only top military personnel know about, who murdered a bunch of Alliance soldiers, and did horrifying experiments. Shepard hunted them down, discovered they killed an Alliance Admiral, and found out they were responsible for the massacre on Akuze. Pretty important if your Shepard was a Sole Survivor.
Oh wait now they're a pro-human group whose ends (don't actually) justify the means, have galactic influence, and everyone knows about them. Their background has changed and all the crap they pulled, that was just misunderstandings or rogue cells or some other bullshit from Miranda. Quick look at her ass so you don't realize there isn't a dialogue option to ask about Admiral Kahoku or them killing Shepard's own unit.
This is quality writing. Aren't you impressed by how dark and morally ambiguous this all is? Shepard does whatever it takes to stop bugs from kidnapping farmers to make a robot that can be killed with a handgun.
If ashley was like that, she would have told the alliance that shepard is trying to steal the normandy. She doesn't. She goes with shepard and trusts him, because she knows the end of the world is coming.
When the end of the entire organic species draws near, you don't sit around doing nothing, especially if you're the one knowing about it. If Bioware intended for Ashley to be in denial, she should have said, anything! Shepard, the reaper threat is over, or I agree witht he council you're stuck up!
What you're saying is pure headcannon., out of the bias, probably, that you don't like ashley. Ashley came around in the end, but why you dismiss all that arc is beyond me. Plus the end of the galaxy is coming, what possible grudge could even stack up against this?
Ashley loves humanity the most, wouldn't she do ANYTHING, to stop the reapers and protect it?
My opinion is, in order for bioware to make ME2, it had to dismiss the reaper threat and turn everyone who knew about it into an idiot, in order for the plot to make sense. Liara doesn't care, Ashley doesn't care, tali, garrus, wrex, shepard, TIM anyone...
You just said that what I said was headcanon, and then went on to complain about why BW made it so. That means it's not headcanon then. You basically just confirmed what I don't like about Ashley and that you don't like what BW did in ME2. Technically, Ashley never came around. There was only one way that was ever going to end, and it ended with a bullet to Ashley's torso and her damning me to hell via the Reapers. In the first example, Ashley was aware of the goings on of the galaxy. That's why she decides to go with you. Technically, you are disobeying orders to save the galaxy, not hinder it. But then that distinction is lost in ME2. Ashley can't see past Cerberus, nor does she really want too. She thinks you're going too far and doesn't like that you've decided not to play by the honorable route that she does, and she judges you harshly for it. I don't really see why you'd call this headcanon, and then literally confirm it a few words later.
The Cerberus alignment was probably the single greatest mistake in the trilogy to me. When all these jokers start bugging Shepard about working with them, I wish I could pull a Tyrion and tell them that I should have let the Collectors build that baby reaper and snuff out their worthless lives.They contorted the setting to prop up railroading Shepard into joining a terrorist organization because someone at BioWare (I think we know who) couldn't handle just letting Cerberus rest with Mass Effect 1 or that the first game had better set them up as enemies if the group was to continue in the series.
In ME1, they were a rogue Alliance covert ops group that only top military personnel know about, who murdered a bunch of Alliance soldiers, and did horrifying experiments. Shepard hunted them down, discovered they killed an Alliance Admiral, and found out they were responsible for the massacre on Akuze. Pretty important if your Shepard was a Sole Survivor.
Oh wait now they're a pro-human group whose ends (don't actually) justify the means, have galactic influence, and everyone knows about them. Their background has changed and all the crap they pulled, that was just misunderstandings or rogue cells or some other bullshit from Miranda. Quick look at her ass so you don't realize there isn't a dialogue option to ask about Admiral Kahoku or them killing Shepard's own unit.
This is quality writing. Aren't you impressed by how dark and morally ambiguous this all is? Shepard does whatever it takes to stop bugs from kidnapping farmers to make a robot that can be killed with a handgun.
Shepard did not show Ashley the data from Veetor's omnitool.
Did not tell Ash that Tali can vouch for the Collectors attacking other colonies (like Freedom's Progress)
Does not get Chawkas or Joker on the line to back his claims.
Does not provide medical or DNA evidence confirming his status and past medical condition
Does not tell her his Spectre status has been reinstated or about his meeting with Anderson (If the Citadel has been visited)
Does not provide data on Mordin's anti-Seeker system.
Shepard doesn't try to explain squat.
What would giving the data from Veetor's omni-tool do? She just witnessed first-hand who was responsible. And she still thinks Cerberus was involved.
Shepard didn't need Tali to vouch for the Collector attack. Presumably, Ashley's two eyes (though very heavily tinted to see alliance bullcrap) should have been able to see the Collectors herself. And she still blames Cerberus. This would accomplish nothing.
What would that do? Why would Ashley decide to listen to Joker and Hacksaw? What makes them any more likely to change her mind? She just saw the object of her pseudo-worship completely break her faith in him by working with Cerberus against the Collectors. All they'd likely get is the same response... like Garrus, if you bring him.
What does that have to do with the tea in China? What would medical records prove? Why are you bringing them up?
And the relevance behind that is? Nevermind that you can hold off or skip that route entirely, what would telling Ashley about a council meeting prove?
Does he need too? I thought this was a question of Shepard's loyalties, specifically, Ashley's judgement of him on Horizon.
Shepard explains. Ashley doesn't listen.
The Cerberus alignment was probably the single greatest mistake in the trilogy to me. When all these jokers start bugging Shepard about working with them, I wish I could pull a Tyrion and tell them that I should have let the Collectors build that baby reaper and snuff out their worthless lives.
Minus Cerberus, I actually do want to do that. It's nothing less than what the Council and the alliance deserve.
They were, inasmuch as TIM was responsible for Horizon being targeted - yet TIM's reasoning is sound: if it had not been Horizon, it would have been another colony, and without anticipating the move, the Normandy wouldn't have gotten there in time. If I remember right, AutoShepard still complains about this if you finish LotSB before the Suicide Mission and invite Liara to the ship to talk.What would giving the data from Veetor's omni-tool do? She just witnessed first-hand who was responsible. And she still thinks Cerberus was involved.
If you mod Tali into the game early, neither she nor Kaidan are swayed even if you have both dextros there vouching for you.Shepard didn't need Tali to vouch for the Collector attack. Presumably, Ashley's two eyes (though very heavily tinted to see alliance bullcrap) should have been able to see the Collectors herself. And she still blames Cerberus. This would accomplish nothing.
What would that do? Why would Ashley decide to listen to Joker and Hacksaw? What makes them any more likely to change her mind? She just saw the object of her pseudo-worship completely break her faith in him by working with Cerberus against the Collectors. All they'd likely get is the same response... like Garrus, if you bring him.
With the VS it was rather played out, but all the same, more skepticism on the part of other squadmates would have been welcome. Garrus and Wrex are utterly unfazed, and I was disappointed in a later playthrough to see that Tali lets you take Veetor without protest if you mentioned her pilgrimage gift earlier.What does that have to do with the tea in China? What would medical records prove? Why are you bringing them up?
Lame indeed. I'd go so far as to say out-of-character given her hostility towards Cerberus after Haestrom (though that may be informed by Veetor's condition when they returned him). Sort of like her passivity if you side with the Geth (leaked script had her trying and failing to stop the upload and save her species, getting thrashed by Legion while Shepard impassively watched - I imagine that would have made it harder for them to justify putting it at the top of the wheel).She doesn't protest taking Veetor? Weird. I never took him, but it's lame that she'd just accept that.
You just said that what I said was headcanon, and then went on to complain about why BW made it so. That means it's not headcanon then. You basically just confirmed what I don't like about Ashley and that you don't like what BW did in ME2. Technically, Ashley never came around. There was only one way that was ever going to end, and it ended with a bullet to Ashley's torso and her damning me to hell via the Reapers. In the first example, Ashley was aware of the goings on of the galaxy. That's why she decides to go with you. Technically, you are disobeying orders to save the galaxy, not hinder it. But then that distinction is lost in ME2. Ashley can't see past Cerberus, nor does she really want too. She thinks you're going too far and doesn't like that you've decided not to play by the honorable route that she does, and she judges you harshly for it. I don't really see why you'd call this headcanon, and then literally confirm it a few words later.
I critisized bioware for not writing it well enough, the fact that it happened or not doesn't matter. Ashley is acting out of character, and the fact that it DOES happen, doesn't mean its good writing. Fabricating her reasons though IS.
Right, well first of all mister, one thing is for certain. Ashley did have an arc in ME1, she even called out that pro-human organization on being racist with all the other species. She put her grandfathers? death behind after virmire.
Aaaand you said it yourself. The distinction is for some reason lost in ME2. Besides the fact that she knows the reapers are coming, well then TIME TO DO NOTHING I GUESS. Because shepard is cooperating with cerberus, an organization MONUMENTALY inferior to the enemy ahead. But lets ignore that and act like an idiot. Quality character progression there.
Not to say how much evidence shepard has.
Ashley's behavior is parallel to "You took my candy, I don't want to talk to you anymore!"
It feels ridiculously forced. And no matter how much you may hate ashley in ME2 or ME3, her character evolution from ME1 is awful.
They contorted the setting to prop up railroading Shepard into joining a terrorist organization because someone at BioWare (I think we know who) couldn't handle just letting Cerberus rest with Mass Effect 1 or that the first game had better set them up as enemies if the group was to continue in the series.
In ME1, they were a rogue Alliance covert ops group that only top military personnel know about, who murdered a bunch of Alliance soldiers, and did horrifying experiments. Shepard hunted them down, discovered they killed an Alliance Admiral, and found out they were responsible for the massacre on Akuze. Pretty important if your Shepard was a Sole Survivor.
Oh wait now they're a pro-human group whose ends (don't actually) justify the means, have galactic influence, and everyone knows about them. Their background has changed and all the crap they pulled, that was just misunderstandings or rogue cells or some other bullshit from Miranda. Quick look at her ass so you don't realize there isn't a dialogue option to ask about Admiral Kahoku or them killing Shepard's own unit.
This is quality writing. Aren't you impressed by how dark and morally ambiguous this all is? Shepard does whatever it takes to stop bugs from kidnapping farmers to make a robot that can be killed with a handgun.
I like you, you made me laugh. Exactly my thoughts.
Shepard: "I thought Asari needed other species to reproduce."
Liara: "Think, Shepard. Our kind would have died out long ago if we had to rely on other species for reproduction."
****************
Child: Everyone's dying.
****************
Child: Wake up.
****************
ME3: The entire intro, especially after "We fight or we die" when the reapers attack. We're learning all about the combat when we should be getting involved in what? The story.
Shepard: "I thought Asari needed other species to reproduce."
ME3: The entire intro, especially after "We fight or we die" when the reapers attack. We're learning all about the combat when we should be getting involved in what? The story.
Setting aside the terrible transition from ME2 and the bad dialogue, that mission is completely laughable for another reason.
The actual arrival of the Reapers was an extremely important moment that the series had spent two games building towards and it's just wasted on an awful tutorial mission.
Say what you will about CoD, but they understand that when something big is happening (like Menendez assaulting Los Angeles) it is time to go all out.
I remember playing it in the ME3 demo, thinking "is this what it's going to be?" Lots and lots of autodialogue, wave after wave of identical enemies. Moar dakka.Setting aside the terrible transition from ME2 and the bad dialogue, that mission is completely laughable for another reason.
The actual arrival of the Reapers was an extremely important moment that the series had spent two games building towards and it's just wasted on an awful tutorial mission.
People use the word Liberal way to often for things they know nothing about. He sounds more like a fascist than someone with liberal leanings. However, this isn't a thread about politics so keep that out of this thread please, I was just correcting you on your conclusion.exactly.
dont get thrown off by massively. i think hes turned into a psycho-ashley excuser...then again he is a liberal.
That would have been the smart play; The VS joins the crew to: 1 ) Verify shep really is shep, 2 ) verify shep's doing this for good reasons, 3 ) Have shep's back if/when Cerberus turns on her.
People use the word Liberal way to often for things they know nothing about. He sounds more like a fascist than someone with liberal leanings. However, this isn't a thread about politics so keep that out of this thread please, I was just correcting you on your conclusion.
I don't think he hates her I think he's defending his position pretty well, but I let Massively take that argument down a notch or two. Because he cool like that
Yeah, I don't think my politics are relevant to this thread, and I definitely don't need to be insulted for them. There's a reason I ignored that guy.
I actually do hate Ashley though. I was honestly expecting a lot more confrontation in ME3, and an ability to be a lot harsher and critical of her and her views/judgement.
What would giving the data from Veetor's omni-tool do? She just witnessed first-hand who was responsible. And she still thinks Cerberus was involved.
Shepard didn't need Tali to vouch for the Collector attack. Presumably, Ashley's two eyes (though very heavily tinted to see alliance bullcrap) should have been able to see the Collectors herself. And she still blames Cerberus. This would accomplish nothing.
What would that do? Why would Ashley decide to listen to Joker and Hacksaw? What makes them any more likely to change her mind? She just saw the object of her pseudo-worship completely break her faith in him by working with Cerberus against the Collectors. All they'd likely get is the same response... like Garrus, if you bring him.
What does that have to do with the tea in China? What would medical records prove? Why are you bringing them up?
And the relevance behind that is? Nevermind that you can hold off or skip that route entirely, what would telling Ashley about a council meeting prove?
Does he need too? I thought this was a question of Shepard's loyalties, specifically, Ashley's judgement of him on Horizon.
Shepard explains. Ashley doesn't listen.
All of this is speculation and headcanon on your part. This is how you think she would have reacted.
And hey, maybe you're right. At least, given how you treat her.
But the point is, Shepard doesn't even try to show any of this to her. Doesn't even try to defend his position, or try to extend any kind of olive branch to someone he presumably cares deeply about and whom he would want to understand why he's doing this. These are all things shown to Shepard or experienced by him that brought him over to working with Cerberus. If he can't even be bothered to show this to someone who has worked closely with, and perhaps has deep feelings for, then that's just poor writing all around.
I agree, I rather have them on my squad because I did not trust Miranda nor Jacob at the time. I'd also rather have the option to rekindle the relationship we had with them if Shepard romanced these two.
I don't mind Ash not joining up with Shepard for ME2. I don't even mind her being suspicious of Shepard. What I do mind is that it was done in such a clumsy, heavy-handed manner.
I actually do hate Ashley though. I was honestly expecting a lot more confrontation in ME3, and an ability to be a lot harsher and critical of her and her views/judgement.
Yes, your hatred of Ash is quite... apparent. 
I'd be curious how many VS-mancers stayed loyal in their ME2 playthroughs.I agree, I rather have them on my squad because I did not trust Miranda nor Jacob at the time. I'd also rather have the option to rekindle the relationship we had with them if Shepard romanced these two.
All of this is speculation and headcanon on your part. This is how you think she would have reacted.
And hey, maybe you're right. At least, given how you treat her.
But the point is, Shepard doesn't even try to show any of this to her. Doesn't even try to defend his position, or try to extend any kind of olive branch to someone he presumably cares deeply about and whom he would want to understand why he's doing this. These are all things shown to Shepard or experienced by him that brought him over to working with Cerberus. If he can't even be bothered to show this to someone who has worked closely with, and perhaps has deep feelings for, then that's just poor writing all around.
It's not speculation and headcanon. It's questioning the relevance of what having these would be. He doesn't say any of those things because there's no point to saying any of it. And yes, he can defend his position. He really shouldn't have too, considering what just happened. And even when he does try, Ashley shoots him down. What more do you want? The failure of communication is not on Shepard's end, it's on Ashley's end. Her mind's made up as soon as 'Cerberus' has left his mouth. If she can't be bothered to listen to someone she's worked closely with, and supposedly has deep feelings for, especially after said ordeal, then maybe she's not worthy of him or joining the crew or even being put in any relevant position against the Reapers.
Yes, your hatred of Ash is quite... apparent.
And I will state that I think Ashley is an objectively bad person. Good character, bad person. I hate her, but I love to hate her too.
I'd be curious how many VS-mancers stayed loyal in their ME2 playthroughs.
::hand raised::
Even though it was a blatant attempt to get Shepard to "move on" to the new batch of hotties on the Normandy
I remember playing it in the ME3 demo, thinking "is this what it's going to be?" Lots and lots of autodialogue, wave after wave of identical enemies. Moar dakka.
I did think it would have been an interesting twist if Hackett was killed in the initial invasion, but that would have left a bit of a hole...
Hackett gets killed at the beginning and Petrovsky replaces him. I would be happy with that.
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