1765 réponses à ce sujet

[Jorji Costava]

Hardly the most important moment.

 

Perhaps a better question, (in order to place the burden of proof properly), would be 'How does a tutorial being present compromise the Reaper invasion of Earth'?

 

Well, it's one of them, seeing as it's the moment that Shepard and company have supposedly been preparing for since the Sovereign reveal in ME1 (Shepard's final line of dialogue in ME1 is, after all, "Sovereign was only a vanguard. The Reaper fleet is still coming. Hundred of ships, maybe thousands. And I'm going to find some way to stop them"). The problem is that during a tutorial, your focus is divided between trying to acclimatize yourself to the mechanics and absorbing the story, whereas it is desirable, during the most important moments, to allow the player to focus solely on the story without having to worry about which buttons do what. Is it the worst problem in the world? Probably not; one of my favorite games, Hotline Miami, does a terrible job teaching you how to play it as it progresses. Still, the ME3 tutorial is less than ideal IMO.

 

 

I'm not sure where else, or how else, they could've done it, though, unless they cooked up some bull mission for Shepard.

Or, hm, maybe something literal like Bond's reentry tests in Skyfall, before **** hits the fan.

 

That's a fair point, and I understand the pressure that the writers must have felt to introduce the Reapers as early as possible. You don't want to build them up for two games only to introduce and then dismiss them within just a relatively small portion of the final one. A reentry test like you suggest could work; alternatively, they could have had Shepard on some kind of advance scouting mission where the first real signs of the invasion are discovered, and then have everything go to hell right after the tutorial is wrapped up.

 

EDIT: Fixed spelling.

[Bob from Accounting]

I don't buy that.

 

It isn't as if the player is given a calculus test to solve. Gameplay is not difficult, and I seriously doubt there is any significant number of players who are taxed with a tutorial to the point of missing story information. The tutorial doesn't even let players progress until they've completed a task that requires a certain action. And in any case, the most important parts of the introduction don't occur during gameplay anyway. Not once have I ever seen anyone complain "I wasn't able to follow this because I was focused on learning how to shoot."

 

Besides, it sounds like the only solution is to separate gameplay and story during the introduction by withholding one until the player is familiar with the other. Which is boring. I can think of games that have done that and been the worse for it.

 

No, the player, or at least the overwhelmingly majority of them, is perfectly capable of following both.

[Jorji Costava]

I don't buy that.

 

It isn't as if the player is given a calculus test to solve. Gameplay is not difficult, and I seriously doubt there is any significant number of players who are taxed with a tutorial to the point of missing story information. The tutorial doesn't even let players progress until they've completed a task that requires a certain action. And in any case, the most important parts of the introduction don't occur during gameplay anyway. Not once have I ever seen anyone complain "I wasn't able to follow this because I was focused on learning how to shoot."

 

Besides, it sounds like the only solution is to separate gameplay and story during the introduction by withholding one until the player is familiar with the other. Which is boring. I can think of games that have done that and been the worse for it.

 

No, the player, or at least the overwhelmingly majority of them, is perfectly capable of following both.

 

It's not a matter of simply being able to process the raw information; it's more a matter of being able to fully invest emotionally in what is going on, and trying to figure out which buttons do what can distract from that somewhat. And the solution isn't necessarily to segregate story and gameplay during the introduction. It's simply to make sure that the parts of the story which take place during the tutorial aren't the ones which require the most investment from the player. Shooting gasbags during the first mission of ME1, for instance, is not a pivotal moment in the series.

[Bob from Accounting]

I really don't think I've ever been distracted by a tutorial to any significant detriment of the narrative.

 

And that just sounds to me like you've got to make the introduction boring.

[Jorji Costava]

I really don't think I've ever been distracted by a tutorial to any significant detriment of the narrative.

 

And that just sounds to me like you've got to make the introduction boring.

 

That's probably because most tutorials don't do what ME3's tutorial did, and by the time you got to ME3, you were already familiar with most of the mechanics because of the previous games; that's how it worked for me, anyways, but it isn't necessarily how it's going to work for anyone.

 

There's plenty of middle ground between "moment of peak emotional investment" and "moment that's boring." There's a reason why stories aren't just climax after climax after climax. Sometimes, the setup can be just as interesting as the payoffs; it just requires a different, more relaxed kind of engagement.

 

Anyways, what's boring me more than anything is this conversation, so I'm done with this topic.

[KaiserShep]

I never really put much thought into the intro. I don't like the bit with the little kid, but other than that I thought it was fine. I actually liked the fight with the cannibals before the Normandy swoops in, but I think it should've had more, like maybe husks running in or something. Maybe it's that heroic music that plays at the final stretch. It's pretty good.

[Steelcan]

I never really put much thought into the intro. I don't like the bit with the little kid, but other than that I thought it was fine. I actually liked the fight with the cannibals before the Normandy swoops in, but I think it should've had more, like maybe husks running in or something. Maybe it's that heroic music that plays at the final stretch. It's pretty good.

The issues with the intro on Earth a re a mix of disappointment over the lack of a trial scene as hyped, dialogue railroading, sappy bits with the kid

 

As a tutorial mission for learning the basics I guess it hits all the marks, however it was rather underwhelming

[Bob from Accounting]

Maybe you should learn the difference between something being 'hyped' by the developers and by players. They're not responsible for whatever nonsense players 'hype.'

[KaiserShep]

Eh a trial scene would probably drag a bit. I don't think it would be a good idea to start the game off with a tedious proceeding where some stuffy tribunal or Guild of Judgmental Chieftains sit and glare at Shepard over the Cerberus shenanigans. "So, you saved us all, did you? Do you have any idea how foolish that was??"

[Obadiah]

I woulda been totally cool if the game started out with a trial flashback and Shepard in jail. The tutorial could have been his breakout during the Reaper invasion.

[Bob from Accounting]

The tutorial could have been his breakout during the Reaper invasion.

 

So literally exactly the same thing, except now players hate the Alliance and are shooting innocent guards instead of husks?

[Steelcan]

Maybe you should learn the difference between something being 'hyped' by the developers and by players. They're not responsible for whatever nonsense players 'hype.'

"ME3 starts on Earth with Commander Shepard facing the music for all their actions". Sounds like a trial to me

[themikefest]

I never really put much thought into the intro. I don't like the bit with the little kid, but other than that I thought it was fine. I actually liked the fight with the cannibals before the Normandy swoops in, but I think it should've had more, like maybe husks running in or something. Maybe it's that heroic music that plays at the final stretch. It's pretty good.

This is just me. But I would've liked it had after you help the 2 guys is that James and Ashley/Kaidan meet up with you. Anderson gives your dogtags and stays with the 2 guys while Shepard, James, Ashley/Kaidan fight their way to where the Normandy is and go from there.

[Steelcan]

So literally exactly the same thing, except now players hate the Alliance and are shooting innocent guards instead of husks?

Innocent people, who locked you up

[dreamgazer]

So literally exactly the same thing, except now players hate the Alliance and are shooting innocent guards instead of husks?

Why does Shepard have to hate the Alliance to break out of jail in a pressing situation?

[KaiserShep]

I woulda been totally cool if the game started out with a trial flashback and Shepard in jail. The tutorial could have been his breakout during the Reaper invasion.

It makes it hard to sell the idea that Shepard would be given the authority to seek treaties with other races. It would work better if instead of breaking out, the facility is under attack and a guard lets you out, serving as a temporary combat companion.

[dreamgazer]

It makes it hard to sell the idea that Shepard would be given the authority to seek treaties with other races. It would work better if instead of breaking out, the facility is under attack and a guard lets you out, serving as a temporary combat companion.

I mean, Vega could do that.

[KaiserShep]

I mean, Vega could do that.

Fair enough. I think it would probably be more fun to have his commentary.

[Steelcan]

Inb4 David doesnt understand our big words

[MassivelyEffective0730]

I'm actually starting to think that the next time David calls something "silly" or "ridiculous" without any explanation, we should actually not ask him why he thinks this. It' just never productive at all.

 

I'm curious. Do you see any issue with your gleeful support of 'sadistic' and 'ruthless' choices and characters right above your request for people to shake the hands of veterens and thank them with a kissy face?

 

Case in point. He completely ignores the challenge to back-up his claims and instead uses a counter-statement to make a personal attack on me.

 

Granted, it might not be productive, but it sure is entertaining.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Inb4 David doesnt understand our big words

 

Of course he does. And it's just some big argument word you found on Wikipedia!

[MassivelyEffective0730]

Its systematic nature is what makes it so rigid, but, yeah, it does cover the necessary basis.

 

I'm with Os on it. I felt, when first playing the tutorials, that ME2's was a lot more measured in comparison to ME3's. And this is strange coming about from a game that more or less radically altered the gameplay from the previous title. ME3's wasn't bad, but I felt it was clunkier and not least bit buggier.

[MassivelyEffective0730]

I'm not sure where else, or how else, they could've done it, though, unless they cooked up some bull mission for Shepard.

Or, hm, maybe something literal like Bond's reentry tests in Skyfall, before **** hits the fan.

 

I think that would have worked. I was honestly expecting at least a sort of 'introductory' mission to have taken place, not throwing you straight into the game right off the bat. 

[MassivelyEffective0730]

So literally exactly the same thing, except now players hate the Alliance and are shooting innocent guards instead of husks?

 

Well, there was a supposed plan where Shepard had to break out of prison to escape the planet. Otherwise, you seem to be seething at this because it's so anti-paragon. Which automatically makes it good on principle.

[dreamgazer]

I'm with Os on it. I felt, when first playing the tutorials, that ME2's was a lot more measured in comparison to ME3's. And this is strange coming about from a game that more or less radically altered the gameplay from the previous title. ME3's wasn't bad, but I felt it was clunkier and not least bit buggier.

Can't say I agree. Between loading the thermal clip we don't know anything about and using the Medi-Gel to Jacob's silly dialogue before hitting the mechs with "the good stuff" and beyond, it was much too inorganic with what was going on. As acclimation to new gameplay elements, it's suitable; as a part of the story, it's pretty awful.