Well, egg on my face. I didn't think the Collectors were bad, but I think they were underutilized. The suicide mission is actually a bit too easy. I was really hoping to face a bit more of a hellish battle in the base. I mean, did I wipe out all of the available Praetorians or something?
They were all relegated to the battlefields that became ME3: MP.
It's a very good idea. Simple and elegant. I could summerize it for those who haven't read it.
Some seeker swarms at the Battle of the Citadel would have meant an easy victory for Saren.
Really, like anything, writing this into the story would also necessitate writing its countermeasures as well. If the Collectors existed as early as ME1, and they had the seeker swarms, we'd just have Mordin's countermeasure there instead, and we'd go through the Citadel while people stand around frozen in a stasis field.
It's a very good idea. Simple and elegant. I could summerize it for those who haven't read it.
Please do, I could really use a good laugh right now.
It's a very good idea. Simple and elegant. I could summerize it for those who haven't read it.
I recall it was completely and succinctly shot down in a logical, respectful manner by a large conglomeration of posters here. Everybody was agreeing about one thing: how bad it was of an idea. I can show you the response if you disagree.
The essential premise is that the Collectors are kidnapping humans to study them for Indoctrination. The brain is complex. The nervous system is complex. And important differences exist for each species. To manipulate those very complex biological systems, the Reapers require a great deal of study and testing. They require a great deal of understanding for Indoctrination to be effective. Shepard arrives at the base and finds thousands of asari, salarians, turians, etc., dead but preserved for millenia. The Reapers have to study their biology to make Indoctrination work, and having been doing so for a great deal of time.
The indoctrination we saw in ME 1 was not 'true' Indoctrination. It wasn't effective. Both Saren and Benezia, the only two people subjected to long-term 'Indoctrination,' were ultimately able to resist. Sovereign was able to kinda-sorta Indoctrinate people in the same way a person who has no understanding of a machine will likely kinda-sorta be able to get it working merely by messing around with it long enough. But ultimately, it led to unstable psychotics instead of reliable and effective servents. The Reapers need 'true' Indoctrination for their conquest. (Ideally, of course, this would involve some backtracking to ME 1 to alter the portrayal of indoctrinated characters somewhat, but it's not indispensible.)
The reason why humans are being abucted is simple. Previously, they were beneath effort. New to the galactic community. Only 30 years on the playing field, and so the collectors didn't bother. This changes with the events of ME 1, where Sovereign is stopped by a human and human fleet, causing the Reapers to re-evaluate humans and conclude the danger of a powerful species above indoctrination is a larger concern than whatever attention the Collectors will inevitably bring on themselves from a sloppy harvest hastily conducted in a few months instead of the hundreds or thousands of years they usually permit themselves to slowly gather subjects from remote corners.
So, long story short, Shepard destroys whatever data they've gathered somehow, data on humans and aliens alike, cutting off the ability of the Reapers to effectively indoctrinate. This has a great deal of advantages.
- ME 2 is no longer 'pointless,' as people whine. The Reapers are struck a very significant blow, yet still remain incredible powerful enemies for ME 3.
- Indoctrination is no longer a concern in ME 3, which addresses some issues and makes the allied resistence more plausible.
- No Reapers made from goo rubbish, no human Reaper.
- Removes irritating 'humans are special' themes. Humans are no longer biologically special at all, just the last in line.
The choice is also improved. Shepard now has a much stronger reason to destroy the data instead of giving a copy to Cerberus. The data is not some vague collector technology, but technology specifically and purposefully designed to subjegate a thinking being. It's technology designed to enslave. Paragon players have more more justification in reasoning that such technology is an abomination and that Cerberus should absolutely not get their hands on it.
The essential premise is that the Collectors are kidnapping humans to study them for Indoctrination. That as the brain and nervous systems are complex things, as are the environments which lead to their evolution between species, the Reapers required a great deal of study and testing to make Indoctrination effective. Shepard arrives at the base and finds thousands of asari, salarians, turians, etc., dead but preserved for millenia. The Reapers have to study their biology to make Indoctrination work, and having been doing so for a great deal of time.
The indoctrination we saw in ME 1 was not 'true' Indoctrination. It wasn't effective. Both Saren and Benezia, the only two people subjected to long-term 'Indoctrination,' were ultimately able to nonetheless resist. Sovereign was able to kinda-sorta Indoctrinate people in the same way a person who has no understanding of a machine will likely kinda-sorta be able to get it working merely by messing around with it long enough. But ultimately, it led to unstable psychotics with instead of reliable and effective servents. The Reapers need 'true' Indoctrination for their conquest. (Ideally, of course, this would involve some backtracking to ME 1 to alter the portrayal of indoctrinated characters somewhat, but it's not indispensible.)
The reason why humans are being abucted is simple. Previously, they were beneath effort. New to the galactic community. Only thirty years on the playing field, and so the collectors didn't bother. This changes with the events of ME 1, where Sovereign is stopped by a human and human fleet, causing the Reapers to decide the danger of a species above indoctrination is a larger concern than whatever attention the Collectors will inevitably bring on themselves from a sloppy harvest hastily conducted in a few months instead of the hundreds or thousands of years they usually permit themselves to slowly gather subjects from remote corners.
So, long story short, Shepard destroys whatever data they've gathered somehow, cutting off the ability of the Reapers to effectively indoctrinate. This has a great deal of advantages.
- ME 2 is no longer 'pointless,' as people whine. The Reapers are struck a very significant blow, yet still remain incredible powerful enemies for ME 3.
- Indoctrination is no longer a concern in ME 3, which addresses some issues and makes the allied resistence more plausible.
- No Reapers made from goo rubbish, no human Reaper.
- Removes irritating 'humans are special' themes. Humans are no longer biologically special at all, just the last in line.
The choice is also improved. Shepard now has a much stronger reason to destroy the data instead of giving a copy to Cerberus. The data is not some vague collector technology, but technology specifically and purposefully designed to subjegate a thinking being. It's technology designed to enslave. Paragon players have more more justification in reasoning that such technology is an abomination and that Cerberus should absolutely not get their hands on it.
If I recall correctly, we were never told if different species are affected differently by indoctrination. This could actually work. I'm no biology expert and I might have missed some in-game info, but it makes sense. More than the actual ME2 plot in any case.
If you have any specific issues, I'd be happy to address them to the best of my ability.
It's not 100% ideal, but then nothing ever is. One of the biggest problems for me is destroying the data - you'd really think the Reapers would make copies, and I don't see a great way to address that, and neither did the guy who came up with it, apparently. You can always say 'Oh, they're arrogent, they never expected it!' but that really doesn't hold a lot of water.
If I were to read up on information technology, transmission, encryption, storage, etc., there might be a plausible solution. Not sure.
David, there's no point engaging you. It's an exercise in futility as you illogically (and irrelevantly) tear down any possible answer. All you're really here to do is impetuously scoff and slight people and belittle their opinions as poor and childish while you build yourself up to satisfy a tremendous ego problem by saying how much more clever you think you are to a point where you have the gall to proclaim that you are insulted and that your time is wasted as if we should care that your opinion is somehow almighty and righteous and we are but brainless peons who must worship every fathom of your 'heroic' opinion since you are by far our superior and know more than we can ever hope too. Basically, it's like a self-important tale a three year old would come up with. Which you're acting like.
yet youll continue every... single... time...
The essential premise is that the Collectors are kidnapping humans to study them for Indoctrination. The brain is complex. The nervous system is complex. And important differences exist for each species. To manipulate those very complex biological systems, the Reapers require a great deal of study and testing. They require a great deal of understanding for Indoctrination to be effective. Shepard arrives at the base and finds thousands of asari, salarians, turians, etc., dead but preserved for millenia. The Reapers have to study their biology to make Indoctrination work, and having been doing so for a great deal of time.
The indoctrination we saw in ME 1 was not 'true' Indoctrination. It wasn't effective. Both Saren and Benezia, the only two people subjected to long-term 'Indoctrination,' were ultimately able to resist. Sovereign was able to kinda-sorta Indoctrinate people in the same way a person who has no understanding of a machine will likely kinda-sorta be able to get it working merely by messing around with it long enough. But ultimately, it led to unstable psychotics instead of reliable and effective servents. The Reapers need 'true' Indoctrination for their conquest. (Ideally, of course, this would involve some backtracking to ME 1 to alter the portrayal of indoctrinated characters somewhat, but it's not indispensible.)
The reason why humans are being abucted is simple. Previously, they were beneath effort. New to the galactic community. Only 30 years on the playing field, and so the collectors didn't bother. This changes with the events of ME 1, where Sovereign is stopped by a human and human fleet, causing the Reapers to re-evaluate humans and conclude the danger of a powerful species above indoctrination is a larger concern than whatever attention the Collectors will inevitably bring on themselves from a sloppy harvest hastily conducted in a few months instead of the hundreds or thousands of years they usually permit themselves to slowly gather subjects from remote corners.
So, long story short, Shepard destroys whatever data they've gathered somehow, cutting off the ability of the Reapers to effectively indoctrinate. This has a great deal of advantages.
- ME 2 is no longer 'pointless,' as people whine. The Reapers are struck a very significant blow, yet still remain incredible powerful enemies for ME 3.
- Indoctrination is no longer a concern in ME 3, which addresses some issues and makes the allied resistence more plausible.
- No Reapers made from goo rubbish, no human Reaper.
- Removes irritating 'humans are special' themes. Humans are no longer biologically special at all, just the last in line.
The choice is also improved. Shepard now has a much stronger reason to destroy the data instead of giving a copy to Cerberus. The data is not some vague collector technology, but technology specifically and purposefully designed to subjegate a thinking being. It's technology designed to enslave. Paragon players have more more justification in reasoning that such technology is an abomination and that Cerberus should absolutely not get their hands on it.
That's...actually not too bad.
Certainly better than what ME2 actually gave us ("essence of a species", anyone?).
If you have any specific issues, I'd be happy to address them to the best of my ability.
It's not 100% ideal, but then nothing ever is. One of the biggest problems for me is destroying the data - you'd really think the Reapers would make copies, and I don't see a great way to address that, and neither did the guy who came up with it, apparently. You can always say 'Oh, they're arrogent, they never expected it!' but that really doesn't hold a lot of water.
If I were to read up on information technology, transmission, encryption, storage, etc., there might be a plausible solution. Not sure.
Hmm. During the trilogy the Reapers have already made a lot of mistakes due to overconfidence and lack of tactics (and really poor aim). Sure the Protheans would have already tried something similar though, they were more advanced than Shepard's cycle. The Reapers should have expected that. The only way of erasing all the data would be some hacking them in some way, if it's even possible. We don't really know how Reapers work.
If you're looking for an alternative to the ending of ME 2, I was looking back at the old threads of David7204 to see what the person everyone accuses me of being was like, and his suggestion was really quite brilliant. Powerful, plausible, very elegant. Far and away superior to anything else I've seen here.
@Bob:
I don't love it, but I don't hate it either. A couple of questions/concerns:
1. Part of the whole point of indoctrination as a plot device is that it does drive you nuts; it's all part of that Lovecraftian idea that the attempt to peer into that great unknown leads to madness and eventually death. You could argue that it was a mistake to draw from Lovecraft in the first place, and I won't disagree, but in that case, indoctrination as a plot device should probably have been dropped from the beginning. Depriving characters of agency is an iffy proposition to begin with, and without the connection to Lovecraft, it's unclear what thematic resonance indoctrination would have left.
2. Presumably, your plot will need to make room for some characters who do fall victim to 'true indoctrination,' and these characters will need to play a critical role in the plot; if you're going to sell us on the idea that indoctrination is a big deal, we need to see this, rather than just be told that it is so.
3. Perhaps the final choice is a little too balanced in favor of paragons, because it's entirely unclear how mind control technology designed to be used against organics could be reverse engineered as a way to gain an advantage against the Reapers. It's not as if we're going to find a way to indoctrinate the Reapers or something.
4. I absolutely agree that the whole concept of "humanity is special" needed to be jettisoned. It's just annoyingly self-congratulatory.
I suspect there's nothing worth saying to convince you otherwise since you're bound and determined to see this as truth no matter what I could possibly say.
Well I'm not saying there's anything wrong in that being the reason in of itself, people like things for different reasons.
Well I'm not saying there's anything wrong in that being the reason in of itself, people like things for different reasons.
And I'm saying that the reasons you're ascribing to me aren't completely correct. They're both part of the reason I like ME2 more than the others, but they aren't THE reasons.
@Bob:
I don't love it, but I don't hate it either. A couple of questions/concerns:
1. Part of the whole point of indoctrination as a plot device is that it does drive you nuts; it's all part of that Lovecraftian idea that the attempt to peer into that great unknown leads to madness and eventually death. You could argue that it was a mistake to draw from Lovecraft in the first place, and I won't disagree, but in that case, indoctrination as a plot device should probably have been dropped from the beginning. Depriving characters of agency is an iffy proposition to begin with, and without the connection to Lovecraft, it's unclear what thematic resonance indoctrination would have left.
2. Presumably, your plot will need to make room for some characters who do fall victim to 'true indoctrination,' and these characters will need to play a critical role in the plot; if you're going to sell us on the idea that indoctrination is a big deal, we need to see this, rather than just be told that it is so.
3. Perhaps the final choice is a little too balanced in favor of paragons, because it's entirely unclear how mind control technology designed to be used against organics could be reverse engineered as a way to gain an advantage against the Reapers. It's not as if we're going to find a way to indoctrinate the Reapers or something.
4. I absolutely agree that the whole concept of "humanity is special" needed to be jettisoned. It's just annoyingly self-congratulatory.
I seem to recall a while back that part of how indoctrination was supposed to work was that it altered the perceptions and the mind of the person so they started to think like the Reapers. They don't go crazy as such, they just...see things differently. An interesting method of using this would be to have someone who is at least partially indoctrinated be able to think like a Reaper and predict their actions, since they can "get into their heads"
As to the final choice: keeping indoctrination data could be useful as it can also be used to find ways to counter or even reverse indoctrination. Something ME3 completely ignored.
As to the final choice: keeping indoctrination data could be useful as it can also be used to find ways to counter or even reverse indoctrination. Something ME3 completely ignored.
Probably because most interaction with devices that cause indoctrination typically lead to those around becoming, y'know, indoctrinated.
That's true. It does leave Indoctrination as a misfire - frequently talked about, but never comes to fruition. The best I can give you is that I wouldn't want to see it just left dead in the water, and perhaps it could have been an interesting direction for Cerberus in ME 3. Or maybe even a non-conventional solution, although I have no idea how. But probably Cerberus. Because I would want Cerberus kept, ultimately for the simple reason that they're too important for gameplay. It's too important to have a human enemy who uses human weapons and tactics. (I also value the implicit progression of the character's skills by fighting thugs and pirates in ME 1, professional mercs in ME 2 and super-soldiers in ME 3.) And the indoctrination of their troops would still be there - there's no other way you could explain them having that many mooks. So maybe there's a good idea that could be developed in there.
As for it's thematic value...despite everything else I hated and still hate about the ending, one thing think I did appreciate was the subversion of the Reapers as mysterious, unknowable beings. I really liked that the Catalyst spoke in very simple, soft, rudimentary diction and appeared as a very innocent and even weak form - a child - instead of a big intimidating mass of glowing circuits and fizzing sparks and booming voice that shakes the walls. Goes to enunciate the ubiquitous 'Full Circle' theme in science fiction, of technology leading to titantic superficial changes but the fundamentals of existence remaining identical. If nothing else, I like that indoctrination contributes to a facade of the Reapers being unknowable for it to be torn down at the right moment.
Of course, nobody here or likely anywhere else will agree. People despise the Catalyst. And plenty have said there were disgusted with the leader of the Reapers not being scary or intimidating at all, in so many words. And there are unfortunately so many things wrong with the ending that I genuinely have no idea if players are fundamentally opposed and angry at the idea of the leader of the Reapers taking a weak, simple form, or if the Catalyst is just an attractive enough hate sink for people despise everything about him to the point of making any reasonable decomposition of his characteristics impossible.
I disagree completely. I believe it was actually a very good opportunity to see what was going on outside the alliance and to look at alternative methods of coming ahead to beat the Reapers and bring advancements in science and technology.
Dragon Age II was also a good opportunity to see the rise to power of a refugee forced to flee their homeland and relocate to a city torn by political and religious turmoil. But the actual game wasn't good at all. Unfortunately ideas and opportunities while important cannot make up for poor execution and the writing of Cerberus in ME2 is poor.
It's also unnecessary. Seeing what was going on outside the Alliance doesn't require having the player have the relationship they do with Cerberus in ME2. As a member of the space gestapo Shepard already has a narrative reason to be pursuing his mission independently. Too bad Mass Effect 2 had everyone ignore the Reaper blowing up in the Citadel in order to prop up Mac Walter's pet project.
As to the second opportunity, the execution is non-existent. Mass Effect 2 failed at that when it chose to spend an entire game on loyalty quest filler and a poorly conceived "suicide mission" to squash some space bugs instead of paying a minimal amount of attention to the central plot of the series.
The choice is also improved. Shepard now has a much stronger reason to destroy the data instead of giving a copy to Cerberus. The data is not some vague collector technology, but technology specifically and purposefully designed to subjegate a thinking being. It's technology designed to enslave. Paragon players have more more justification in reasoning that such technology is an abomination and that Cerberus should absolutely not get their hands on it.
This one of the best headcannons I've seen. I wish ME2 followed this, it could have made much more sense.
But allas, we're here to experience the story and the plot, not write it ourselves.
Probably because most interaction with devices that cause indoctrination typically lead to those around becoming, y'know, indoctrinated.
This is true. However, it is still a powerful weapon of the Reapers that was never really explained or explored.
Of course, nobody here or likely anywhere else will agree. People despise the Catalyst. And plenty have said there were disgusted with the leader of the Reapers not being scary or intimidating at all, in so many words. And there are unfortunately so many things wrong with the ending that I genuinely have no idea if players are fundamentally opposed and angry at the idea of the leader of the Reapers taking a weak, simple form, or if the Catalyst is just an attractive enough hate sink for people despise everything about him to the point of making any reasonable decomposition of his characteristics impossible.
In my case, the problem was the Catalyst was both insane and untouchable. The child image it took is simply a focus for the rage that combination brings about. It's logic is best described as "Insane Troll" and it's determined to impose some sort of "solution" on the galaxy, and to use Shepard as its instrument.
And there's not a frakking thing you can do about it except go along or watch the galaxy die.
This is true. However, it is still a powerful weapon of the Reapers that was never really explained or explored.
It's explained through the codex and atmospherically, but yeah. ME2 and the novels (Paul Grayson) gave indoctrination some serious plot armor, though.
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