52 réponses à ce sujet

[shodiswe]

Han Shot First wrote...

AlexMBrennan wrote...

The Quarian government is far more complicated and more similar to the British Parliament with the House of Lords and House of Commons

What the hell are you smoking? Because last I checked the House of Commons was elected, and the House of Lords has extremely limited power. By contrast, the quarians are ruled by an unelected top military officials.

And you're wrong on the definition of junta too - "A junta or military junta (/ˈhʊntə/ or /ˈdʒʌntə/) is a government led by a committee of military leaders."

I think the closest real world equivalent to the Quarians would be the government of Imperial Japan during the Second World War. Japan had a civilian government, however in most matters it was subordinate to the whims of the Supreme War Council. Nearly all of the members of the Supreme War Council were navy Admirals or army Generals.

That's fairly similar aswell. The thing is though that even in countries nations or groups that are goverened by their warlords, Junkt military commanders or emperors or Generals/Admirals, there will always be minor functionaries among the people that takes care of the work that the worriers don't care for as long as their interests are.

Worker representatives, labour leaders and others over/organising the every day work because of their experience in doing so. They are however always subordinate to their godlike superirs that can decide that they are traitors and should be shot on the spot, taken to a fake trial and then shot or exiled, if they arn't happy with their work.

The main difference between an imperial government of Generals and Admirals and a Junta Generals seems to be what people call them.
Junta might possibly be seen as more condescending than calling them the Imperial war council. The Quarian admirals calls themselves the Admiralty.

The Paralells and similarities are there no matter what they call themselves. I'm not even sure why anyone would feel the need to object.

The Admiraltys power is absolute when ever they feel like interveening. They get the last word, their word is law.

Modifié par shodiswe, 06 février 2014 - 08:07 .

[Derpy]

I don't ever class their government as anything but a bunch of idiots telling a bunch of clueless people what to do.

When idiots get into power things like dumb wars get started that shouldn't have started in the first place.

[Sir DeLoria]

AlexMBrennan wrote...

The Quarian government is far more complicated and more similar to the British Parliament with the House of Lords and House of Commons

What the hell are you smoking? Because last I checked the House of Commons was elected, and the House of Lords has extremely limited power. By contrast, the quarians are ruled by an unelected top military officials.

And you're wrong on the definition of junta too - "A junta or military junta (/ˈhʊntə/ or /ˈdʒʌntə/) is a government led by a committee of military leaders."

Haha, that's cute, no I wasn't smoking anything my dear Alex, I just forgot to add, that I was speaking of the historical British Parliament, which saw a very powerful, small, aristocratic House of Lords and a rather weak House of Commons mainly in the 16th and 17th century. Also, the Conclave can be somewhat compared to the House of Commons. As far as I remember, the Quarian crews decided who their representative(Captain) was in the Conclave.

You could also draw a comparision between the Imperial Roman political system and that of the Flotilla, as the Emperor held similar power to the Admirality Board and the Conclave has a similar position as that of the Imperial Senate.

Your definition of junta is different from that of my dictionary, no point in discussing it. 

[X Equestris]

I think it's a bit of a stretch to call the quarian government a junta. Tali mentions that the Conclave has real power, and ship captains have a fair amount of authority aboard their ships. They also usually have a shipboard council that advises the captain.

Point is, the military's power isn't absolute. If anything, they resemble a sort of executive branch that carries out the Conclave's directions.

As for the original topic, Tali's apparent immunity to infection from injury is mostly for gameplay's sake. I've always seen her in more of a support role in combat. Combine that with the fact that the team probably has access to the best antibiotics, and I don' think infections from combat will be a life threatening problem. Certainly a hazard, but not extremely dangerous.

[thehomeworld]

All Quarians are constantly dying from suit ruptures? Um I remember Kal taking several bullets the reason they die is you had someone who was sick or maybe a civilian who doesn't have access to top care or lets themselves go and yeah they'll die. I think the Admiral's family members and the military get top shots all the time.

However Tali being shot all the time and it not phasing her is plot armor at work the same way you can get Miranda taken by the swarms and she'll magically appear after that fine and bug free. If the plot really called for an injured near death Tali they would make it happen.

I would say she's the most badass but I'm bias. I think her upbringing gives her a stronger immune system but that doesn't mean she's able to be careless with it. I think if she got a puncture and didn't treat it well she'd get sick like all the others. I think the state of ones immune system depends on their job, pay, and status the higher you are on the food chain like Admiral, Captain, select jobs on the food ships, select engineering positions like oxygen purifier, ect would have the best or better care then say your garbage processor, seamstress, dancer, and pencil pusher hence the people on the lower scale signed up fast with the geth to improve themselves.

[shodiswe]

It seems we're all in agreement about this. Whatever one prefer to call it doesn't really matter, the Admirals power is absolute when they desire something. Less imporant issues are delegated or left for the Conclave to solve.

Different Junta's can differ quite a bit from each other, different empires will differ. Even the Roman empire nad the relationship between The Senate and the Emperor's power warried greatly over time, initialy there was only the Senate.

The imporant thing is that they are all "soldiers/Generals/Admirals/warriors" who rules their subjects, and they arn't chosen by the people but by the top leadership, Each Admiral chooses it's sucessor or they are choosen by the other Admirals.

Junta, Kingdom, Empire, Military dictatorship, it's all the same if you take a close look at it. What will make the most difference between them is the wealth of the society and the mindset of the leaders.

My personal opinion of the Admiralty is that they are a bunch of deranged people that the Quarians are better of getting rid of once they settle on Rannoch. But that's their busines and that of the writers of future Mass Effect stories.
An absolute Admiralty could also make some nice rebellion stories or villains and other interesting stuff. Just throwing them away could make the storytelling suffer by removing corrupted rotten powerabusing Admirals from future stories.

I don't specificly hate Quarians and I think Tali is a nice person even if she's subject to her upbringing in certain ways. I do however hate the Admiralty with a passion.
Just gunning them down to create a peace would have been just as satisfying, they are the tumor in Quarian society. With out the Admiralty they could easily be one of my favrites.

[Rusty Sandusky]

 My waifu is perfect and I will hear nothing said against her.

[shodiswe]

ThisOnesUsername wrote...

 My waifu is perfect and I will hear nothing said against her.

Oh, please, noone is perfect, even shepard has his/her stupid moments. Also, being overprotective of someone won't help them.

[Rusty Sandusky]

shodiswe wrote...

ThisOnesUsername wrote...

 My waifu is perfect and I will hear nothing said against her.

Oh, please, noone is perfect, even shepard has his/her stupid moments. Also, being overprotective of someone won't help them.

sarcasm, learn to detect it.

[shodiswe]

ThisOnesUsername wrote...

shodiswe wrote...

ThisOnesUsername wrote...

 My waifu is perfect and I will hear nothing said against her.

Oh, please, noone is perfect, even shepard has his/her stupid moments. Also, being overprotective of someone won't help them.

sarcasm, learn to detect it.

I did consider it, but it's harder to detect it in written text   Also, Shepard sure has his/her stupid moments.

Modifié par shodiswe, 07 février 2014 - 10:29 .

[R0gueHunt3R]

I think that there are very few people who actually agree with the admirals. Outside of Shala'Raan, who is admittedly rather indecisive, the quarians would be better off without the Admiralty post Rannoch.

[Derpy]

I think this thread and all of the Admirals EXEPT DARO'XEN need to use Javik Logic™

Throw it out of the airlock™

[R0gueHunt3R]

Well, there might as well not be, because it's almost impossible to detect.

Anyway, moving back on topic:

Since people seem so opposed to the Admiralty, what would you suggest in its place, both before and after Rannoch?

Edit: Corrected typo.

Modifié par R0gueHunt3R, 08 février 2014 - 04:26 .

[shodiswe]

R0gueHunt3R wrote...

Well, there might as well not be, because it's almost impossible to detect.

Anyway, moving back on topic:

Since people seem so apposed to the Admiralty, what would you suggest in its place, both before and after Rannoch?

I'll choose to respect the writers artistic integrity for what they've already created, but post ME3 I hope the Conclave will be taking over and the Admiralty will be operating on the parameters dictated by the people elected Conclave rather than the otherway around.

That way the people will have a say in what happens and the risk of idiots staying in power for too long is reduced.
There is ofcourse no safe bets, there have been democracies that have voted the most atrocious humanrights offenders into power that claimed millions. But at least it shoudl be better than having 3-5 people decide everything of importance and who should replace them when they retire or die.
They might be semi skilled military leaders but it might not be what the people wants.

On the otherhand if the Bioware writers want a bunch of fachist villains then the admiralty could certainly spawn some really nasty people in the future. Or we could have a Quarian rebellion where they fight the opression of the Admiralty who refuses to let go of their power, claiming they are the only ones who can safeguard the future of the Quarian species.

In the end, it's just a story. Also, there is no perfect form of government but democracy tends to cause the least suffering, with a few exceptions.

One could say the same for the Turians by they seem to be doing ok, even if their first contact protocol seems to be, do whatever strikes your fancy, bomb civilians and send in troops to enslave them. Thereby asserting your dominance and ensure that peace prevails through show of force. (Firstcontact war)

The turians do seem like good people otherwise, but it seems like they need to give you a beating and you have to show your submission or show that you know your place. Kind of like how the members of a wolfpack shows submission towards the Alpha male and female.
It seems like a common pharase for turians to say thigns like, "Learn your place". It's probably natural for them. They got a strict Hirarchy, and they want everyone else to have a set place in Hirarchies aswell.
If someone is to rise in that Hirarchy then they won't let go until they are 100% certain this other party deserves their position.

While I hate the Admiralty setup that the Quarians got in the current Trilogy, it's possible it's part of their culture to have a very elitistic society with an aristocracy at the top.

The story would be pretty "lame" if everyone were the same and sipping tea all day long, and discussing the latest fashions which just so happens to be whatever was fashionable when their grandmas were young.


I'll leave it to the writers to give us a nice story and characters to love and hate, sometimes both.

Modifié par shodiswe, 08 février 2014 - 03:05 .

[AlexMBrennan]

Since people seem so apposed to the Admiralty, what would you suggest in its place, both before and after Rannoch?

In the west we generally consider democracy superior to military dictatorships - strange that you hadn't noticed.

[R0gueHunt3R]

Yeah, well I don't live in a Western Nation, and many African Nations are far from democratic.

The idea of a quarian civil war could be quite interesting. However, with such a small population, it probably would not be the best course of action.

Also, I always considered quarian society to be an extreme example of socialism. After all, personal possessions are kept to a minimum, and they have that whole "market" system. Of course, the political system reminded me greatly of Soviet Russia, where the political elite were in an untouchable position and had complete authority over those they ruled.

Modifié par R0gueHunt3R, 08 février 2014 - 04:45 .

[RangerSG]

AlexMBrennan wrote...

Since people seem so apposed to the Admiralty, what would you suggest in its place, both before and after Rannoch?

In the west we generally consider democracy superior to military dictatorships - strange that you hadn't noticed.

We consider democracy better as a peacetime system. And it is. But the Quarians are in a state of near-perpetual war, forced to ration everything from food to manpower. Even then, the Admiralty doesn't make day-to-day decisions. I think people are overestimating how much they actually did. The Conclave oversaw most routine matters. And Tali is clear that the Admiralty didn't often override the Conclave. So each had their sphere of influence, and typically respected the other's. We see the Admiralty in game because Treason is a military crime, and then the Quarians are actively prosecuting their war with the Geth.

I'd suspect that post-war, with the ability to live relatively normal planetside lives, the Quarians would further constrain the Admiralty. After all, Tali's statements do show that the Quarian people consider the necessary loss of freedom life in the Migrant Fleet entails an unfortuante development. One that most people would want reversed. Also the Admiralty would lose much of its power base as resources were stripped from the Migrant Fleet to aid rebuilding Rannoch.

[RangerSG]

R0gueHunt3R wrote...

Yeah, well I don't live in a Western Nation, and many African Nations are far from democratic.

The idea of a quarian civil war could be quite interesting. However, with such a small population, it probably would not be the best course of action.

Also, I always considered quarian society to be an extreme example of socialism. After all, personal possessions are kept to a minimum, and they have that whole "market" system. Of course, the political system reminded me greatly of Soviet Russia, where the political elite were in an untouchable position and had complete authority over those they ruled.

Except that it's explicitly stated the Admiralty had to resign if they overrode the Conclave. So they were still ultimately accountable for the decisions they made on the board.

The best example is probably something akin to the mixed governments of the ancient Mediterranean City States. Military "Kings" constrained by constitutional and traditional concerns, with an Assembly overseeing all non-emergency domestic matters. 

[shodiswe]

R0gueHunt3R wrote...

Also, I always considered quarian society to be an extreme example of socialism. After all, personal possessions are kept to a minimum, and they have that whole "market" system. Of course, the political system reminded me greatly of Soviet Russia, where the political elite were in an untouchable position and had complete authority over those they ruled.

Yes, that's also a good likeness, also note how the description of their economic system states that more valuable resources are under strict control of the Conclave and Admiralty.


The Geth has likely been operating under what could be seen as a very Communistic economy system. Their political system is hard to judge however. It could be that they are more democratic if they are actualy letting most of their programs to vote on things/ form the consensus.
It also seems like they can dissagree in certain situations and in those cases it didn't end very well for them.
The Heretics broke off and started plottign the downfall of the true Geth.
When Legion didn't agree with the majority he/it was shackled.

The Geth are still very young as a species, so if they survived past ME3 then they will have to sort those things out. Especialy since we're told their upgrades made each platform less dependant on their fellow Geth. Meaning they might evolve more personal interestes and opinions when they arn't constantly hooked up to their networks.
If anything the Geth seems to have a huge risk of Civil war and groups just flying off persuning their own goals or dreams.

There are plenty of opportunities for Bioware to make good stories in the future of Mass Effect. They just have to figure out what to do with their creation.

[shodiswe]

RangerSG wrote...

AlexMBrennan wrote...

Since people seem so apposed to the Admiralty, what would you suggest in its place, both before and after Rannoch?

In the west we generally consider democracy superior to military dictatorships - strange that you hadn't noticed.

We consider democracy better as a peacetime system. And it is. But the Quarians are in a state of near-perpetual war, forced to ration everything from food to manpower. Even then, the Admiralty doesn't make day-to-day decisions. I think people are overestimating how much they actually did. The Conclave oversaw most routine matters. And Tali is clear that the Admiralty didn't often override the Conclave. So each had their sphere of influence, and typically respected the other's. We see the Admiralty in game because Treason is a military crime, and then the Quarians are actively prosecuting their war with the Geth.

I'd suspect that post-war, with the ability to live relatively normal planetside lives, the Quarians would further constrain the Admiralty. After all, Tali's statements do show that the Quarian people consider the necessary loss of freedom life in the Migrant Fleet entails an unfortuante development. One that most people would want reversed. Also the Admiralty would lose much of its power base as resources were stripped from the Migrant Fleet to aid rebuilding Rannoch.

They arn't really in a perpetual war, the Geth wern't comming after them, they would have been extinct long ago if they had followed them.
The Geth won't attack unless they threaten them by going to close to them making it seem like they might be attacking. With the exception of the Reaper worshipping Heretics, which is a fairly new addition.

They arn't at war with anyone besides possibly pirates, who will most likely choose other targets with more valuables and less guns. We're even told the Quarians did some privateering of their own, especialy in the early years of their exile. I'm sure that didn't improve their reputation or relationship with the other species.

Instead of finding a world that hadn't been explored and claimed by other explorers they settled a known world whose colony status was already being negotiated between the Council species. Which resulted in them getting evicted. It wasn't even a world that was fit for Quarian colonization.
I would bet that was another of those stupid Admiralty decisions, the only thign valuable about that world was the mineral deposits, it wasn't a dextro world and it's gravity was far too high for the Quarians.

Also, the Conclave knew what they could do and what the Admiralty wouldn't allow. Most administrators knows what their bosses allows them to do and what they can't do without permission.
After a few hundred years and a few generations I'm sure everyone knows who holds the gun and who serves the gun wielding masters. Thereby peace and conformity is achieved.

There was no war, just the Admiralty acting like Captain Ahab, 37% of the time they died like Ahab. They couldn't let go of their white whale and it would have cost them their whole species if Shepard didn't save them by bringing peace or doing their dirtywork for them.

[R0gueHunt3R]

RangerSG wrote...

R0gueHunt3R wrote...

Yeah, well I don't live in a Western Nation, and many African Nations are far from democratic.

The idea of a quarian civil war could be quite interesting. However, with such a small population, it probably would not be the best course of action.

Also, I always considered quarian society to be an extreme example of socialism. After all, personal possessions are kept to a minimum, and they have that whole "market" system. Of course, the political system reminded me greatly of Soviet Russia, where the political elite were in an untouchable position and had complete authority over those they ruled.

Except that it's explicitly stated the Admiralty had to resign if they overrode the Conclave. So they were still ultimately accountable for the decisions they made on the board.

The best example is probably something akin to the mixed governments of the ancient Mediterranean City States. Military "Kings" constrained by constitutional and traditional concerns, with an Assembly overseeing all non-emergency domestic matters. 

I remember that line from ME 1, but it's moot anyway, since the admirals appoint their own successors. Besides, ME 3 paints a very different picture. After all, it's Han'Gerrel who is pretty much solely responsible for the (near) destruction of the quarian race.

[RangerSG]

shodiswe wrote...

RangerSG wrote...

AlexMBrennan wrote...

Since people seem so apposed to the Admiralty, what would you suggest in its place, both before and after Rannoch?

In the west we generally consider democracy superior to military dictatorships - strange that you hadn't noticed.

We consider democracy better as a peacetime system. And it is. But the Quarians are in a state of near-perpetual war, forced to ration everything from food to manpower. Even then, the Admiralty doesn't make day-to-day decisions. I think people are overestimating how much they actually did. The Conclave oversaw most routine matters. And Tali is clear that the Admiralty didn't often override the Conclave. So each had their sphere of influence, and typically respected the other's. We see the Admiralty in game because Treason is a military crime, and then the Quarians are actively prosecuting their war with the Geth.

I'd suspect that post-war, with the ability to live relatively normal planetside lives, the Quarians would further constrain the Admiralty. After all, Tali's statements do show that the Quarian people consider the necessary loss of freedom life in the Migrant Fleet entails an unfortuante development. One that most people would want reversed. Also the Admiralty would lose much of its power base as resources were stripped from the Migrant Fleet to aid rebuilding Rannoch.

They arn't really in a perpetual war, the Geth wern't comming after them, they would have been extinct long ago if they had followed them.
The Geth won't attack unless they threaten them by going to close to them making it seem like they might be attacking. With the exception of the Reaper worshipping Heretics, which is a fairly new addition.

They arn't at war with anyone besides possibly pirates, who will most likely choose other targets with more valuables and less guns. We're even told the Quarians did some privateering of their own, especialy in the early years of their exile. I'm sure that didn't improve their reputation or relationship with the other species.

Instead of finding a world that hadn't been explored and claimed by other explorers they settled a known world whose colony status was already being negotiated between the Council species. Which resulted in them getting evicted. It wasn't even a world that was fit for Quarian colonization.
I would bet that was another of those stupid Admiralty decisions, the only thign valuable about that world was the mineral deposits, it wasn't a dextro world and it's gravity was far too high for the Quarians.

Also, the Conclave knew what they could do and what the Admiralty wouldn't allow. Most administrators knows what their bosses allows them to do and what they can't do without permission.
After a few hundred years and a few generations I'm sure everyone knows who holds the gun and who serves the gun wielding masters. Thereby peace and conformity is achieved.

There was no war, just the Admiralty acting like Captain Ahab, 37% of the time they died like Ahab. They couldn't let go of their white whale and it would have cost them their whole species if Shepard didn't save them by bringing peace or doing their dirtywork for them.

Pirates? Raiders? Governments that thought "Quarian" was the equivalent of "Vorcha"? 

Yeah, they were in a perpetual wartime condition. Limited resources, limited options for colonization because of their immune systems. 

And that's not how the Conclave vs the Admiralty is painted. If it was, the Admiralty would never have had to resign ever. It did, more than once. And it wasn't via coup. So it wasn't a simple military junta.

[DeinonSlayer]

Uh, shoddy, you do remember the bit about how Ekuna was in the Terminus? About how the Quarians discovered it? Ekuna wasn't Council space until they went to the Council and asked for it to be recognized as a Quarian world.

But then you've been told all of this before, and continue to gnaw on their every action like a dog with a bone, so I guess I shouldn't expect anything different to come of discussing it again.

[R0gueHunt3R]

I still don't understand why the quarians attempted to colonize that specific planet. After all, if its gravity was more suited to the elcor, I can't imagine them doing very well there.

Edit: Let's look at the data:

Ekuna has a surface gravity 4.6 times higher than that of Rannoch and a equitorial temperature 33°C lower. I really can't see that working in the long term.

That being said, the Council's reaction was uncalled for.

Modifié par R0gueHunt3R, 08 février 2014 - 05:56 .