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[Massa FX]

Selfishly I want to play as Shepard again.

Realisticly I believe BW speaks truth.

Hopefully I hope to see Shepard back in ME5 or whatever the call the game after the upcoming game.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

Cerberus is simply to this cycle what the indoctrinated Prothean faction was to the Prothean cycle:  a group indoctrinated into the idea that the Reapers can be controlled, and that will oppose anyone who aims to destroy the Reapers. (This is how the Protheans never finished the Crucible, they were sabotaged from within.)

TIM was not indoctrinated 'til much later in the game. There's nothing to suggest Henry Lawson was indoctrinated, either.

[Sanunes]

Massa FX wrote...

Selfishly I want to play as Shepard again.

Realisticly I believe BW speaks truth.

Hopefully I hope to see Shepard back in ME5 or whatever the call the game after the upcoming game.

I really don't think Shepard is going to return, if you look at Dragon Age people have been asking and wanting The Warden to return for Dragon Age 2 and Dragon Age: Inquisition and now Hawke to return for Dragon Age: Inquisition.  They might be making an appearance, but I don't see them bringing them back as primary characters no matter how many people want it to be that way and since Shepard has had a conclusion (even if its not popular) I can't see a return.

[SwobyJ]

Douglas n7 wrote...

SwobyJ wrote...

ME3 is the end of Shepard's story.

you would think they would of know it was the end for shepard because we knew long beefore mass effect 3 was the end of shepards story so i knew he whould of died 

Again. ME3 is the end of SHEPARD'S story. Long live *N7*.

[SwobyJ]

StreetMagic wrote...

Mcfly616 wrote...

They're no longer limited by the Shepard/Reaper narrative. They can branch out in any number of ways.

True.

I still think they're limited by their own philosophy though. When I think of space, I think of frontiers, the unknown, lawlessness, and a libertarian's wet dream. Basically, Somalia.

They think of civilization, the known, law and "galactic well being", and instead of the individuality or freedom of a libertarian, they champion everyone being the same.

edit: This has little to do with Shepard though. Just talking about the themes they go for.

You might be surprised.

In my experience, even with Bioware themselves, game devs have a wide range of political views.

With plenty of libertarians too. Outright conservatives though, sure, more of a minority. Not so much social and economic libertarians. Those ones are definitely there.


Eh, just see for the next game. If it's not your cup of tea, don't bother (either getting it, or getting any more Mass games after it).


Remember that the whole 'unity' and 'galactic civilization', etc... the idea of them is that they're a *lie*. Let's just see what pans out.

[DoomsdayDevice]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

Cerberus is simply to this cycle what the indoctrinated Prothean faction was to the Prothean cycle:  a group indoctrinated into the idea that the Reapers can be controlled, and that will oppose anyone who aims to destroy the Reapers. (This is how the Protheans never finished the Crucible, they were sabotaged from within.)

TIM was not indoctrinated 'til much later in the game. There's nothing to suggest Henry Lawson was indoctrinated, either.

TIM's indoctrination was an ongoing process, "Slow, patient indoctrination allows the thrall to last for months or even years." When he decided to get the implants, that was the final stage. It obviously started back in ME2 or maybe even before, because it became pretty much clear when he wanted to keep the Collector base for the Reaper technology.... when I first saw that scene, I realized Cerberus was going to be an indoctrinated/enemy faction in ME3. 

Modifié par DoomsdayDevice, 09 février 2014 - 06:46 .

[SwobyJ]

Daemul wrote...

Mcfly616 wrote...

They're no longer limited by the Shepard/Reaper narrative. They can branch out in any number of ways. Gameplay, Story, even the genre/type of videogames don't necessarily have to conform to the first 3 games. 


The Mass Effect brand will sell itself now. It doesn't need Shepard as it's mascot any longer. 

I would love to see a Mass Effect dystopia. Society breaking down in the aftermath of the Reaper war as the races struggle to rebuild. It would be brilliant and realistic. Life does not just go back to normal after a galactic war for survival which left numerous world's burning, infrastructure destroyed, billions dead, billions more displaced, the seat of galactic government the scene of a mass slaughter and the economy in tatters. Life is going to be s**t for a long time.

I think this will happen.

At least for one game.

And yes, I also consider EC to be 'canon'.

Just have to use your imagination. Bioware by now is practically BEGGING us to try harder on that, imo.

[Dr_Extrem]

Sanunes wrote...

Massa FX wrote...

Selfishly I want to play as Shepard again.

Realisticly I believe BW speaks truth.

Hopefully I hope to see Shepard back in ME5 or whatever the call the game after the upcoming game.

I really don't think Shepard is going to return, if you look at Dragon Age people have been asking and wanting The Warden to return for Dragon Age 2 and Dragon Age: Inquisition and now Hawke to return for Dragon Age: Inquisition.  They might be making an appearance, but I don't see them bringing them back as primary characters no matter how many people want it to be that way and since Shepard has had a conclusion (even if its not popular) I can't see a return.

so in fact, they are going the me3esque route with DAI ... "take a weakness from the second game and bring it to the next one."

hawke was the main reason i did not play da2 ... (i dont play rpgs, where the pc is unlikeable). he/she is one of the weak points of da2 and the fans sounded their opinion.
morrigan on the other hand, was a favourate in DAO ... and guess who is coming back in DAI? ... marketing strategy? 

bringing the warden back with voice acting is difficult (you would need several different VAs) but the warden did fine in DAO without VO ... i am replaying it right now and i dont have a problem with my warden being silent.
 

shepard can return (in later games) ... if the MEU is rebooted with MENext and prior mistakes are not made again (inconsistant writing etc.).

[SwobyJ]

StreetMagic wrote...

I love any sci-fi concept that aspires to be this big.. like I said somewhere earlier: The idea sells itself. But I'd prefer someone else make an attempt at it now. Anyone who wants to come into the market, I'd happily welcome it. It's starting to seem like Bioware is using their games for social commentary or something. I never got that impression before, but ME3 opened my eyes. The underlying message, the things they wish to address in a setting like this, is pretty clear. This is an Asari universe. It has nothing to do with exploring space or helping a young humanity forge their future. These are bullsh*t side issues they gave up on.

Every action sends ripples across the galaxy. Every idea must touch another mind to live. Each emotion must mark another’s spirit. We are all connected. Every living being united in a single, glorious existence. Open yourself to the universe, Commander. Embrace eternity!

LOL. This is NOT an 'asari universe'.

Prepare for them to be s**t on. Seriously.

Not utterly wrecked, sure, but they're gonna need a propping up by player actions in any potential sequel - not assumed their purity anymore.

[SwobyJ]

StreetMagic wrote...

SwobyJ wrote...

Douglas n7 wrote...

SwobyJ wrote...

ME3 is the end of Shepard's story.

you would think they would of know it was the end for shepard because we knew long beefore mass effect 3 was the end of shepards story so i knew he whould of died 

Again. ME3 is the end of SHEPARD'S story. Long live *N7*.

I don't even know what that means.

Something like... The King is dead. Love live the king?

Sort of.

But let me put it this way.

ME2-ME3 was the actual 'long live the king'.

We haven't truly (in the sense most people would consider it in the current real world) been Shepard since ME1. ME2-3 was an interesting journey, but it's time to make our choice what the protagonist should become.

And that's what the Crucible is about. 'What does 'N7'' (the symbol, the icon that Shepard HELD) as the focused question, instead of ME2-3's 'what is Shepard?' (the specific identity)

Of course the player can take this as they wish, and make their choice. Just as I've said before, the most 'core' heroic Shepard is a Red/Renegade/Destroy.

But now we're done with Shepard. And players can let off those organic shackles and.. become something more. Maybe much more. Or instead consider that devolution and stick to being as much like Shepard as possible. You have choice more than you deserve, or more than you know.

Modifié par SwobyJ, 09 février 2014 - 07:05 .

[SwobyJ]

StreetMagic wrote...

SwobyJ wrote...

Remember that the whole 'unity' and 'galactic civilization', etc... the idea of them is that they're a *lie*. Let's just see what pans out.

If it's a lie, then I need more follow through within the game. It's pretty annoying if they want to say more about that, and yet didn't want to make anything post ME3 either (timeline wise).

Mass Effect is a franchise. They're entirely allowed to promote something in one game, question it in the next, challenge it in the one after that, and finally outright expose it for what it is after that. That's just a longer progression than something confined to one game(or book, or film, or tv season, etc).

All they defined ME1-3 as is Shepard's story and... that's it. No *relation* to the trilogy's *events*. No *Shepard specific companions*.

Do you think we won't see anything post-ME3? And are you sure?

[SwobyJ]

StreetMagic wrote...

I don't know what to think.

I'm not sure they do either. I'd like to believe they do (that would be better for fans), but yeah.. I don't know.

As for the "Asari universe" comment, it just seems like the last game was a big attempt into bringing into that fold, and going "Blue" (Paragon/Galactic unity/all that noise) in general.

By now I'm very sure that they know very much what they're doing for at least the next couple of games, or at least broadly speaking. And ME3 the game does relate to it - though the 'events' do not necessarily. Semantics, but important ones.

~~~

Erm while I think the next game(s) will be the Blue to ME1-3's Red, I think there may be another inversion happening.

In ME1-3 while the core story was Red, there was a growing push in the more optional layers of the narrative (and then especially forced in ME3) to attempt the Blue or even Green.

I predict that something similar will happen in the next 1-3 games. However this time, we'll have a core story of Blue, but a more splitting push to attempt either Red or Green.

If this is correct, hell yes you'll see the illusions of the asari (and everything else) shatter.

It's just they'll try to counter balance that out with some themes of trying to take those shattered illusions and make them into dreams come true (so to speak). The Green. But THAT will again be optional.
(And then of course the core story of Blue will be there, but it may be made to feel difficult to maintain - like it is for many ME1-3 players to maintain a Renegade/Red/Destroy path)


Anyway, I know you may disagree, but actual concepts of peace, community, and endeavoring towards new things is not an exclusively 'hippy' thing. It's something that has shown itself in some of the best parts of humanity, and the best parts of our progress.

The caveat I'd put to that though is that as we aspire for progress, it opens up the risk for even more severe missteps (to put it lightly) than if we simply kept to our most individual concerns.

IMO Mass Effect is more considering all major philiosophies to have a general balance, but it's our personal tendencies towards certain ones that dictate the tone of our stories. More a phych or philosophical test (of ourselves even) than some sort of political preaching.

Modifié par SwobyJ, 09 février 2014 - 07:17 .

[teh DRUMPf!!]

StreetMagic wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

Cerberus is simply to this cycle what the indoctrinated Prothean faction was to the Prothean cycle:  a group indoctrinated into the idea that the Reapers can be controlled, and that will oppose anyone who aims to destroy the Reapers. (This is how the Protheans never finished the Crucible, they were sabotaged from within.)

TIM was not indoctrinated 'til much later in the game. There's nothing to suggest Henry Lawson was indoctrinated, either.

I agree on Lawson (I guess), but not sure about TIM. He was mildly indoctrinated for years (I'm sure you're aware of the Evolution comic). He just went full gusto in ME3 (I guess because he thought he'd stay only mildly indoctrinated).

I am. And I have long rejected the [TIM indoctrinated from ME:E] as a misinterpretation.

I'll put this down in list form to avoid writing an essay on it...


--> Brief exposure to Reaper tech does not make you indoctrinated, or Object Rho would have compromised Shepard.

--> Indoctrination requires days-to-weeks of continous/uninterrupted exposure to Reaper tech to set in. Again, TIM does not stay around the Arca Monolith device very long at all. Shepard spent two days knocked out at The Project, but is fine. A lot of people assert "he wasn't indoctrinated at ME:E, but over the years it was setting in." It doesn't work like that. Indoctrination does not set in over years. It also requires you to be in the presense of some kind of indoctrinating device at all times.

The Codex merely says that the thrall can be sustained for months-to-years, but that assumes they are, in fact, indoctrinated in the first place. No such assumption is safe to make with TIM.

--> TIM's eyes mean ... nothing. Though they look like husk's eyes, being indoctrinated doesn't mean your eyes suddenly turn glowy. Otherwise, we would have seen it when meeting, say, Dr. Kenson, Rana Thanoptis, Shiala, and etc. Interestingly, we do see "indoctrinated eyes" from her briefly, but they look more like those of the Collectors than human husks (and so all those "Wake up, Shepard" IT sigs are actually invalid, lol).

--> TIM's actions undermine the Reapers far more than they could acceptably have allowed of their thrall: stealing Shepard's body from them, wiping out the Collectors and human Reaper, almost figuring out how to take control of them.

He also wouldn't have created that large, multi-billion credit organization committed to stopping the Reapers. Yes, Cerberus was created in large part to fight the Reapers (TIM: "I've been fighting them longer than you can imagine"). The device he touched gave him visions of the Reapers, he just couldn't put his finger on what they were (much like Shepard intially couldn't make sense of the vision from the Prothean Beacon). And the Cerberus manifesto talks about protecting humanity from some dark, alien threat. That's why everyone who works for Cerberus acknowledges the Reaper threat as legitimate, even before the war takes place and most thought them to be a myth.

Note that TIM never says he wants the Reapers destroyed in ME2, just "stopped" ... which doesn't rule out Control.

--> ME novels' narrations of TIM's perspective do not indicate mind-control. Those same novels narrating from Paul Grayson's perspective clearly portray the gory details of his indoctrination. If ME:E was supposed to reveal to us that TIM was indoctrinated "all along," then why would not the ME novels reinforce this point?

--> When TIM implants himself (as seen in a video log at the end of Sanctuary) with Reaper tech, Sanctuary had already happened. The doctor warns against implanting himself, as TIM would then risk losing his mind to the Reapers. That would not make sense if TIM was already indoctrinated (if any tell-tale symptoms existed, a doctor would notice).

*edit 2*

--> Vendetta, the Prothean VI, was programmed to withhold the Crucible information from indoctrinated agents (which he can detect, apparently). Where do we find Vendetta again after he's stolen from us? (Answer: TIM's office).

--> When shot dead in the final, face-to-face confrontation with TIM, you can see his implants power-down (the lights go off) after falling to the floor. His eyes do not similarly power out (credit goes out to Steelcan on this discovery, not I).


TIM was successful at avoiding it for a long time, but his luck finally ran out at the last step in his "master plan."

*edit 1* ... Well, so much for not writing an essay.

Modifié par HYR 2.0, 09 février 2014 - 07:57 .

[Iakus]

ElitePinecone wrote...

No, I'm saying that not everybody has the time or the desire to obsessively follow news about a game and hang around on forums about it. The vast, vast majority of people who bought Mass Effect do not do this. Half the game's players, on average don't finish it. 

It's one thing to say that the ending controversy made it into the press. How many players even finished the game? How many of those people cared about the ending? How many of those people cared enough about the ending to make a complaint? And how many of those players care enough about the ending to still be talking about it two years afterwards? 

When Bioware say that it was a minority of people who had an issue with the ending, I don't really doubt them. Millions of people played the game, some finished it and - if they encountered the ending controversy at all - wondered what all the fuss was about. They aren't sheep, or deluded, or stupid. They just had a different opinion on the conlusion than you or me. You can argue all you like about the merits of that opinion, but the vast majority of people who played Mass Effect - if they finished the game at all - didn't bother to sign up for a forum, tweet a developer, or sign a petition.

Basically: I don't think the ending controversy is nearly as huge and important as people on the BSN think it is - but also not as small and quiet as Bioware would've wanted it to be, which is why the company has been all sunshine and rainbows for two years.

Given the reaction here, how likely is it that much of the, well "not here" crowd simply went "well that sucked" and exchanged or shelved their games and moved on to something else?  

How many of those, who hear of the next Mass Effect game, will go "Hey, isn't that the shooter with the lame/sucky story?

Or go "Mass Effect?  Oh, yeah, I remember that.  So what?"

Or even "Hey, wasn't that the game a few years back that was supposed to be terrible?"

Sure those that are on this sight are not a majority.  But it's erroneous to think "If they're not here, they must have liked it"  How much of that crowd simply quietly gave up?

And more to the point, what is Bioware going to do to try to win them back?  Or is Bioware going to even try?

The controversy is important because the direction of the franchise depends on it.  Who's going to spread word of mouth about the game if the "hardcore" fans are driven away?  How will they deal with the "loudly skeptical" audience?  Or who will be the new target audience?

[SwobyJ]

iakus actually, I found it funny that a good friend of mine who he strictly and angrily swore off Mass Effect entirely after the ME3 original ending, messaged me saying he's doing another full ME3 run with all the DLC.

Oh gamers...

Modifié par SwobyJ, 09 février 2014 - 07:35 .

[FlamingBoy]

SwobyJ wrote...

iakus actually, I found it funny that a good friend of mine who he strictly and angrily swore off Mass Effect entirely after the ME3 original ending, messaged me saying he's doing another full ME3 run with all the DLC.

Oh gamers...

What? Because you knew a guy who "did something" corresponding to your world view he is a representation of all gamers who "swore off mass effect".

[SwobyJ]

FlamingBoy wrote...

SwobyJ wrote...

iakus actually, I found it funny that a good friend of mine who he strictly and angrily swore off Mass Effect entirely after the ME3 original ending, messaged me saying he's doing another full ME3 run with all the DLC.

Oh gamers...

What? Because you knew a guy who "did something" corresponding to your world view he is a representation of all gamers who "swore off mass effect".

You're assuming that. No, I don't consider him a representation of anything. I found it funny. Like haha funny.

My actual opinion is that some people have dropped Mass Effect entirely, but not everyone who said that is going to stick to their promises. But a good bit will be, and the Mass Effect brand IS tarnished enough in the gamer community's minds for it to be imo a significant factor, so Bioware has to really pick it up with the next game if they want to make ME4 a success.


EDIT: Was it the 'oh gamers...' part? Nah, that was just a remark on how yes, gamers like to rage at something but then forget about it years later. It's not just a gaming thing. People do this with things they're upset about all the time. Some have shorter emotional memories. Some have much longer ones.

Modifié par SwobyJ, 09 février 2014 - 09:06 .

[BuLLxET For Everyone]

Whatever happen in ME4, I hope they stick to what Mass Effect is truly about. Humanity. Think about, Bioware has games where one can play as human yes, as well as other races. The point being Mass Effect is about being Human. So what I'm getting at, is whatever the plot, whatever the time line (hopefully in the future) we'll be able to play a human. If Shepard lives, cool, if he dies, no surprise there. But let us play as a human, and hopefully not during the Contact War. I feel that story line is too small. I donno, just let us play as a human.

[SwobyJ]

I don't think that will ever change.

They may question us on what 'human' means, but there will likely always be the 'feeling' for players, especially new ones to the franchise, of at least having the 'Human species option'.

And I think the story will always revolve around humanity, or at least significantly involve it and its advancement.

I DO hope though that Bioware doesn't feel afraid to take extended trips into alien focuses and broader species options. ME3 is about the most 'humanity first' I can take, TBH.

[Mcfly616]

The next game will outsell its predecessors....

Modifié par Mcfly616, 09 février 2014 - 06:05 .