580 réponses à ce sujet

[AresKeith]

The Dark Energy plot and Synthetics/organics plot are both equally bad

[Dr_Extrem]

AresKeith wrote...

The Dark Energy plot and Synthetics/organics plot are both equally bad

without a doubt.

[Jeremiah12LGeek]

You see, someone says something like that, and then my feed gets filled with it, and I'm compelled to look, and then what? I get lost, I mean... 

Who's to blame? The person who said it? The people who repeat it? Me for looking? All? Some? None? 

What if it's all part of a big system... a system designed to create confusion and delusion... and I'm just looking in, feeling that moment, becoming part of that system, creating further moments... What if I am the system!?  What if all these streams of data are my veins feeding themselves, and creating an illusion of individually observing egos, examining the minutiae of information from peculiar or oblique perspectives.

Anyway, my brain just went sproing. So, I'm out. 

[Ravensword]

That's about as likely as an IT reveal.

[GimmeDaGun]

SwobyJ wrote...

"We'll stop you from using Dark Energy by letting you use Dark Energy for millions of years"

Not only letting, but encouraging. They built he mass relays... huge ass dark energy devices...

So here goes the dark energy plot:

Hey dawg, I build you huge ass dark energy devices in order to make you use them as you please, so you evolve technologically as we please, by using dark energy for... well... basically everything from your toothbrushes to your dreadnaughts, so we can destroy your civilisations and harvest you to make you into huge dark energy based machines in order to save the galaxy... >drumrolls<... from duh evhul dark energy that consume it because of you using it... errr.. and us using it... and the mass relays... errrr... durp.

That's Drew's ingenious vision for you.

Modifié par GimmeDaGun, 10 février 2014 - 10:17 .

[GimmeDaGun]

Dr_Extrem wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

The Dark Energy plot and Synthetics/organics plot are both equally bad

without a doubt.

Not quite... just read my post above. The synthetic/organic plot could have been very good if it was handled with more care and if it was planned more carefully. There's no problem with that concept. It's the execution what makes it a bit off. 

The alternative would have been infinitely worse.

[GimmeDaGun]

maaaad365 wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

maaaad365 wrote...

I can't believe there is even a comparison between the 2 story lines. It's like comparing Bill Clinton to Adolf Hitler.

Oh, for fuck's sake ...

ME2 was a masterpiece on so many levels and its minor plot holes were neglijable compared to ME3. In fact, ME3 contradicted the ME2 story-line , not the other way round.

I repeat: 

You said that there were no major complaints, which there undoubtedly were: the science of Lazarus, the pointlessness of the Collector side-mission plot, the Cerberus railroading, "Ah yes, Reapers", Harbinger's schoolyard obsession, and that terrible Baby Reaper ending focused on the "essence of organics" were all heavily criticized. And there were a healthy number of hardcore fans unhappy with the reduced presence of the VS and Liara in ME2.

That's a masterpiece to you? Sport, take them rose-tinted shades off, because it's killing your vision. 

It wasn't a masterpiece to you because you didn't understand what ME2 was about, you didn;t understand the Reaper motives in ME1 and 2, you are still looking through your ME3 glasses. The dark energy plot was soooooo much better than the neverending conflict between synthetics and organics.

What the F. did I just read?.... aaaah, help, my brain is burning...

[SwobyJ]

Jeremiah12LGeek wrote...

You see, someone says something like that, and then my feed gets filled with it, and I'm compelled to look, and then what? I get lost, I mean... 

Who's to blame? The person who said it? The people who repeat it? Me for looking? All? Some? None? 

What if it's all part of a big system... a system designed to create confusion and delusion... and I'm just looking in, feeling that moment, becoming part of that system, creating further moments... What if I am the system!?  What if all these streams of data are my veins feeding themselves, and creating an illusion of individually observing egos, examining the minutiae of information from peculiar or oblique perspectives.

Anyway, my brain just went sproing. So, I'm out. 

You're pretty smart though. Keep on that track. Just don't let it destroy ur mindddd.

[SwobyJ]

GimmeDaGun wrote...

SwobyJ wrote...

"We'll stop you from using Dark Energy by letting you use Dark Energy for millions of years"

Not only letting, but encouraging. They built he mass relays... huge ass dark energy devices...

So here goes the dark energy plot:

Hey dawg, I build you huge ass dark energy devices in order to make you use them as you please, so you evolve technologically as we please, by using dark energy for... well... basically everything from your toothbrushes to your dreadnaughts, so we can destroy your civilisations and harvest you to make you into huge dark energy based machines in order to save the galaxy... >drumrolls<... from duh evhul dark energy that consume it because of you using it... errr.. and us using it... and the mass relays... errrr... durp.

That's Drew's ingenious vision for you.

To me it was very much just a tentative plan that they have no real plan to always go forward with.

That said, the pieces of Dark Energy info we get in the trilogy could and imo SHOULD be used in future games. Might as well, eh?

[GimmeDaGun]

SwobyJ wrote...

GimmeDaGun wrote...

SwobyJ wrote...

"We'll stop you from using Dark Energy by letting you use Dark Energy for millions of years"

Not only letting, but encouraging. They built he mass relays... huge ass dark energy devices...

So here goes the dark energy plot:

Hey dawg, I build you huge ass dark energy devices in order to make you use them as you please, so you evolve technologically as we please, by using dark energy for... well... basically everything from your toothbrushes to your dreadnaughts, so we can destroy your civilisations and harvest you to make you into huge dark energy based machines in order to save the galaxy... >drumrolls<... from duh evhul dark energy that consume it because of you using it... errr.. and us using it... and the mass relays... errrr... durp.

That's Drew's ingenious vision for you.

To me it was very much just a tentative plan that they have no real plan to always go forward with.

That said, the pieces of Dark Energy info we get in the trilogy could and imo SHOULD be used in future games. Might as well, eh?

Dark energy is what ME is all about. Mass effect and everything based on it (biotics included) is basically dark energy. 

Well, something going wrong with dark energy - mass effect could make the basis of an awesome plot for another ME game. Actually I'd very much welcome such an abstract problem or conflict after the classica "ancient demonic-apocalyptic-destructive force emerging from the darkness of space and time to destroy the universe" that the reapers were. 

I only find the dark energy plot that was planned as the motivation behind the reapers very, very .... well very bad.

[maaaad365]

The people who don't understand the Dark Energy plot are the same people who watched The Matrix and didn't get it.

Of course the Reapers let the other races use the Mass Effect technology because you cannot have interstellar travel without it. It's a necessary evil that they try to control.

EDIT :The balance between the "good" use of the Mass Effect ( HELL IT'S THE NAME OF THE GAME !!! ) and the "bad" use of the same energy/effect was not reached by the Reapers yet. Shepard was supposed to find a solution to this problem in ME3 and stop the "harvest". It's much more logical and abstract in a Sci-fi way than the war between machines and organics.

Modifié par maaaad365, 10 février 2014 - 10:34 .

[SwobyJ]

Maaaaaaad, if you 'got the Matrix', then you should be able to get ME3 because much of it is the same thing.

For realz. Those green lines on everything are totalllly physical,

[AresKeith]

GimmeDaGun wrote...

Dark energy is what ME is all about. Mass effect and everything based on it (biotics included) is basically dark energy. 

Well, something going wrong with dark energy - mass effect could make the basis of an awesome plot for another ME game. Actually I'd very much welcome such an abstract problem or conflict after the classica "ancient demonic-apocalyptic-destructive force emerging from the darkness of space and time to destroy the universe" that the reapers were. 

I only find the dark energy plot that was planned as the motivation behind the reapers very, very .... well very bad.

I also find the cliche plot of synthetics and organics always in conflict, plus the Reapers killing everyone and repeating the cycle to be equally bad

[Dr_Extrem]

GimmeDaGun wrote...

Dr_Extrem wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

The Dark Energy plot and Synthetics/organics plot are both equally bad

without a doubt.

Not quite... just read my post above. The synthetic/organic plot could have been very good if it was handled with more care and if it was planned more carefully. There's no problem with that concept. It's the execution what makes it a bit off. 

The alternative would have been infinitely worse.

but there is no "if" ... this question is only of academic nature.

the org vs. synth conflict was not a major theme in mass effect and is in fact contradicted by the whole quarien/geth plot arc. the main theme was always human centrism vs. galactic collaboration.

so yeah IF synth vs. org has been a major theme from at least me2 onward and IF ther would have been proper buildup, without opposing arguments, it maybe could have worked. but not with me1, 2 and most parts of 3 in mind.


the synthetic characters we meet in mass effect are:
- the rogue financial ai from me1 - who just wanted to leave the citadel - the suicide was plan-b
- edi - who basically becomes the example that synthetic and organic life forms can coexists and help each other
- legion - who shows us, that the geth from me1 were only a rogue splinter group (who was altrered by "reaper gifts" that caused a specific calculation error) and that the bulk of the geth were in fact mostly harmless. (the even waited for the quariens to return home)


this buildup and the fact that sovi despised but used synthetics as tools of war/deception, make both plots equally aweful ... in addition, drews dark energy ending was only a rough concept and not fully evolved.

[GimmeDaGun]

maaaad365 wrote...

The people who don't understand the Dark Energy plot are the same people who watched The Matrix and didn't get it.

Of course the Reapers let the other races use the Mass Effect technology because you cannot have interstellar travel without it. It's a necessary evil that they try to control.

What the f. is there to "understand" about The Matrix? You talk about it like it was rocket science, or so abstract and esoteric that it could be understood only by chosen few. pffff...

The dark energy plot is about the reapers trying to stop the spread of dark energy, because it slowly destroys the galaxy. And why does it destroy it? Well because the organics use it. So they harvest them in order to prevent the galactocalyptic event. But what do they do in order to do that? Encourage organics to use dark energy even more by using the mass relays they (the reapers) built for them to evolve in a way so they use dark energy. Also the reapers themselves are all based on dark energy... so wtf. is that if not plain stupid?

I don't stop you killing others by manipulating you to become a homocidal maniac so in the end I can kill you myself and make you become a homocidal zombie... huhhh?

[SlottsMachine]

AresKeith wrote...

What am I reading?

Modifié par General Slotts, 10 février 2014 - 10:43 .

[GimmeDaGun]

AresKeith wrote...

GimmeDaGun wrote...

Dark energy is what ME is all about. Mass effect and everything based on it (biotics included) is basically dark energy. 

Well, something going wrong with dark energy - mass effect could make the basis of an awesome plot for another ME game. Actually I'd very much welcome such an abstract problem or conflict after the classica "ancient demonic-apocalyptic-destructive force emerging from the darkness of space and time to destroy the universe" that the reapers were. 

I only find the dark energy plot that was planned as the motivation behind the reapers very, very .... well very bad.

I also find the cliche plot of synthetics and organics always in conflict, plus the Reapers killing everyone and repeating the cycle to be equally bad

Good for you... I don't. I find one of them a motivation you can justify and make into a desent sci-fi plot (many sci-fis are about the conflict of humans playing god and creating their own doom - AIs), but the other is a totall mess which makes zero sense... although that would have been true to Sovereign's words: "It's omething you can not comprehend."...well, true... there's nothing you comprehend about total stupidity. 

[maaaad365]

You got it all wrong. The Reaper's purpose as machines was ( in ME1 and 2) to emit an energy field that counteracts the negative effects of the Mass Effect field. So , each time they harvested a species they become better at this. That's why they harvested ONLY the humans in ME2 because their genetics were the best for this task, that's why Harbinger tells you the whole game why he rejected the other races.

It's not esoteric or stupid, it's just that they changed the plot in ME3 and they created this confusion. 

Modifié par maaaad365, 10 février 2014 - 10:49 .

[ImaginaryMatter]

GimmeDaGun wrote...

Dr_Extrem wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

The Dark Energy plot and Synthetics/organics plot are both equally bad

without a doubt.

Not quite... just read my post above. The synthetic/organic plot could have been very good if it was handled with more care and if it was planned more carefully. There's no problem with that concept. It's the execution what makes it a bit off. 

The alternative would have been infinitely worse.

I think comparing the two is unhelpful. Drew himself stated that the Dark Energy concept was in a very rough state, who knows how much it or ME3 would have changed to have fit it into a story. Perhaps the Reapers considered the Relays necessary in order to restrain Organics and keep the cycles harvestable, a sort of necessary evil. Perhaps Dark Energy dissipates overtime which is why the Reapers hibernate.

Point is any number of paths could have been taken to make the plot work, same with any number of ways the series could have been build to support some version of Organics vs Synthetics.

[GimmeDaGun]

maaaad365 wrote...

You got it all wrong. The Reaper's purpose as machines was ( in ME1 and 2) to emit an energy field that counteracts the negative effects of the Mass Effect field. So , each time they harvested a species they become better at this. That's why they harvested ONLY the humans in ME2 because their genetics were the best for this task, that's why Harbinger tells you the whole game why he rejected the other races.

It's not esoteric, it's just that they changed the plot in ME3 and they created this confusion.

Man that's your interpretation or head-canon. What was intended with the dark energy plot was something totally different. It was the one I just wrote about a few posts ago. 

[AresKeith]

GimmeDaGun wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

GimmeDaGun wrote...

Dark energy is what ME is all about. Mass effect and everything based on it (biotics included) is basically dark energy. 

Well, something going wrong with dark energy - mass effect could make the basis of an awesome plot for another ME game. Actually I'd very much welcome such an abstract problem or conflict after the classica "ancient demonic-apocalyptic-destructive force emerging from the darkness of space and time to destroy the universe" that the reapers were. 

I only find the dark energy plot that was planned as the motivation behind the reapers very, very .... well very bad.

I also find the cliche plot of synthetics and organics always in conflict, plus the Reapers killing everyone and repeating the cycle to be equally bad

Good for you... I don't. I find one of them a motivation you can justify and make into a desent sci-fi plot (many sci-fis are about the conflict of humans playing god and creating their own doom - AIs), but the other is a totall mess which makes zero sense... although that would have been true to Sovereign's words: "It's omething you can not comprehend."...well, true... there's nothing you comprehend about total stupidity. 

What I'm saying is that it should've remained a subplot centered around the Quarians and Geth (and EDI's character progression)

[Dr_Extrem]

StreetMagic wrote...

Dr_Extrem wrote...

the org vs. synth conflict was not a major theme in mass effect and is in fact contradicted by the whole quarien/geth plot arc. the main theme was always human centrism vs. galactic collaboration.

That's how I saw it. If not, it's still the more interesting theme to me. I view the Reapers are just some party crasher. Like some obnoxious drunk who comes in farting and burping and hitting on everyone and telling bad jokes no one wants to hear.

OK, maybe not quite.. but you know what I mean.

It's like Mass Effect has the potential to be Game of Thrones in space, but they insist on including Sauron.

the reapers were only a plot device to give us a reason to follow one of the two roads.

Modifié par Dr_Extrem, 10 février 2014 - 10:50 .

[GimmeDaGun]

Dr_Extrem wrote...

GimmeDaGun wrote...

Dr_Extrem wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

The Dark Energy plot and Synthetics/organics plot are both equally bad

without a doubt.

Not quite... just read my post above. The synthetic/organic plot could have been very good if it was handled with more care and if it was planned more carefully. There's no problem with that concept. It's the execution what makes it a bit off. 

The alternative would have been infinitely worse.

but there is no "if" ... this question is only of academic nature.

the org vs. synth conflict was not a major theme in mass effect and is in fact contradicted by the whole quarien/geth plot arc. the main theme was always human centrism vs. galactic collaboration.

so yeah IF synth vs. org has been a major theme from at least me2 onward and IF ther would have been proper buildup, without opposing arguments, it maybe could have worked. but not with me1, 2 and most parts of 3 in mind.


the synthetic characters we meet in mass effect are:
- the rogue financial ai from me1 - who just wanted to leave the citadel - the suicide was plan-b
- edi - who basically becomes the example that synthetic and organic life forms can coexists and help each other
- legion - who shows us, that the geth from me1 were only a rogue splinter group (who was altrered by "reaper gifts" that caused a specific calculation error) and that the bulk of the geth were in fact mostly harmless. (the even waited for the quariens to return home)


this buildup and the fact that sovi despised but used synthetics as tools of war/deception, make both plots equally aweful ... in addition, drews dark energy ending was only a rough concept and not fully evolved.

I'm kind of glad that they did not turn the game into a "politically correct, all for unity and liberal views = good vs. pragmatic, nationalist, conservative views = bad, racist" campaign game. I'm glad that they remained on the sci-fi path. I don't need the "this is how you should think" kind of brain-washing, narrow minded, black and white thinking plot in a sci-fi action adventure in which you slaughter thousands of people and creatures. The game have such tendencies already, but thankfully it remains in the backround.

Modifié par GimmeDaGun, 10 février 2014 - 10:58 .

[dreamgazer]

StreetMagic wrote...

I view the Reapers are just some party crasher. Like some obnoxious drunk who comes in farting and burping and hitting on everyone and telling bad jokes no one wants to hear.

OK, maybe not quite.. but you know what I mean.

What's amusing is that these drunken, farting, obnoxious party crashers would have been the real "good guys" in the DE ending.