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[Anomaly-]

So I just recently listened to the Crafting and Customization panel from PAX Prime. A few things stood out to me.

The Good:

• It appears they are giving these areas a higher priority than they were in DA2, with a focus on complexity and customizability. That's excellent. I'm hoping the customizability is beyond aesthetics, as I care about those much less than stats. I could also care less about iconic appearances.

The Bad:

• Sounds like they're restricting weapons by class. That's disappointing. Though they aren't restricting armor the same way? Not sure about the logic there.
• We still won't be doing any of the actual crafting or gathering ourselves. This is very disappointing to me. It reminds me too much of DA2's "crafting", which I hated. So much for my hopes of an Alchemist specialization, or a poison-centric Assassin. Not to mention my beloved gathering and inventory management.

Discuss.

Modifié par Anomaly-, 06 février 2014 - 02:15 .

[CybAnt1]

I like all your points, agree with them to many extents.

The problem with discussing this ... well, maybe it's in many areas. It's so hard to discuss without knowing the details beyond the general outlines.

But I can discuss what's already been done.

I do think DA2 crafting WAS good for three reasons:
1) they made rune crafting far simpler than the tedious nonsense of DA:A and DA:O (as well as bug free).
2) they did away with crafting tiers in general, instead going for a more general approach. In other words, instead of crafting different tiers of bombs, they simply made the bombs scale.
3) I kind of like finding "veins" or "sources" of materials and then being able to craft based on how many you've found. This rewards exploration, while not forcing you to do the constant scavenger hunt thing to go back for more resources.

Admitted dislikes:
1) no more crafting of armor or weapons. Just potions/elixirs/salves, runes, poisons/bombs.
2) the whole outsourcing thing. You have to do it in your mansion. No doing it in the field. It's kind of like Lady Elegant is still making the potions and beaming them to you instantaneously. But once you leave your home ... you can't make them any more. And outside of the three things mentioned above, someone else has to craft armor and weapons for you. 

Modifié par CybAnt1, 06 février 2014 - 03:13 .

[St. Victorious]

CybAnt1 wrote...

I like all your points, agree with them to many extents.

The problem with discussing this ... well, maybe it's in many areas. It's so hard to discuss without knowing the details beyond the general outlines.

But I can discuss what's already been done.

I do think DA2 crafting WAS good for three reasons:
1) they made rune crafting far simpler than the tedious nonsense of DA:A and DA:O (as well as bug free).
2) they did away with crafting tiers in general, instead going for a more general approach. In other words, instead of crafting different tiers of bombs, they simply made the bombs scale.
3) I kind of like finding "veins" or "sources" of materials and then being able to craft based on how many you've found. This rewards exploration, while not forcing you to do the constant scavenger hunt thing to go back for more resources.

Admitted dislikes:
1) no more crafting of armor or weapons. Just potions/elixirs/salves, runes, poisons/bombs.
2) the whole outsourcing thing. You have to do it in your mansion. No doing it in the field. It's kind of like Lady Elegant is still making the potions and beaming them to you instantaneously. But once you leave your home ... you can't make them any more. And outside of the three things mentioned above, someone else has to craft armor and weapons for you. 

Your likes are what I'm hoping they keep in-game.

From what I gather your crafting will still be handled by other people. This time around though those people will work for, including a blacksmith to craft your weapons/armor. Currently I'm assuming that they'll be stationary at your keeps. 

[Aaleel]

I want to be able to craft things myself. One of the things I didn't like about DA2, the lack of crafting. If was just shop at home but no actual crafting. The whole idea of finding all of the ingredients yourself and then having to pay someone to get them back in the form of a potion I found absurd.

If they're going to limit health regeneration then they should allow you make a potion or two in the field. If they don't want people overstocking on potions like in DA:O, limit the supply of ingredients. Don't let people buy unlimited flasks or go the Dalish camp and buy unlimited amounts of elfroot.

Crafting at its most basic definition is making something with your hands, let me make stuff myself instead of buying everything or depending upon someone else entirely. It doesn't sound like this is going to happen though, disappointing.

[Sentinel358]

Anomaly- wrote...
[*]We still won't be doing any of the actual crafting or gathering ourselves. This is very disappointing to me. It reminds me too much of DA2's "crafting", which I hated. So much for my hopes of an Alchemist specialization, or a poison-centric Assassin. Not to mention my beloved gathering and inventory management.
[/list]Discuss.

I couldve sworn they spoke about an emphasis on how we'll need to go out into the world to find the material to craft these weapons, that certain creatures will have a certain material we need for particular items and also how, crafting is not exaclty a skill but will develop to a degree as we craft items

[Anomaly-]

CybAnt1 wrote...

I like all your points, agree with them to many extents.

Why thank you, sir.

I do think DA2 crafting WAS good for three reasons:
1) they made rune crafting far simpler than the tedious nonsense of DA:A and DA:O (as well as bug free).

To be honest, I barely used it in DA:O, and never did in DA2. Neither system was great.

2) they did away with crafting tiers in general, instead going for a more general approach. In other words, instead of crafting different tiers of bombs, they simply made the bombs scale.

This was something I disliked, because it took away the ability to invest in the skill.

3) I kind of like finding "veins" or "sources" of materials and then being able to craft based on how many you've found. This rewards exploration, while not forcing you to do the constant scavenger hunt thing to go back for more resources.

Thing is, I actually enjoy the scavenger hunt, and having to decide what to keep/what to throw away while adventuring. I experienced pretty much 0 exploration in DA2. Not to mention the logical shortcomings of that system. How is it that I can craft 1000 potions after finding 1 elfroot source, but can't craft a single one of these other potions until I find another node?

Admitted dislikes:
1) no more crafting of armor or weapons. Just potions/elixirs/salves, runes, poisons/bombs.

Agreed. Although you couldn't craft armor/weapons in DA:O either, aside from NPCs like Wade.

2) the whole outsourcing thing. You have to do it in your mansion. No doing it in the field. It's kind of like Lady Elegant is still making the potions and beaming them to you instantaneously. But once you leave your home ... you can't make them any more. And outside of the three things mentioned above, someone else has to craft armor and weapons for you.

Agreed. I understand their point about being able to craft potions at your leisure while fighting the Archdemon, but I'd much rather they just disabled it in combat. If I'm just exploring, I see no reason why I couldn't make some potions or build some traps.

Aaleel wrote...

I want to be able to craft things myself. One of the things I didn't like about DA2, the lack of crafting. If was just shop at home but no actual crafting. The whole idea of finding all of the ingredients yourself and then having to pay someone to get them back in the form of a potion I found absurd.

Agreed. The way it worked in DA2 added absolutely nothing to the game. It was functionally identical to finding a shop and buying potions from it. It was not a new feature and it provided no additional functionality to gameplay.

If they're going to limit health regeneration then they should allow you make a potion or two in the field. If they don't want people overstocking on potions like in DA:O, limit the supply of ingredients. Don't let people buy unlimited flasks or go the Dalish camp and buy unlimited amounts of elfroot.

I see no reason to limit the amount of potions a person can make. Limit the amount they can carry, maybe. I think the solution to the potion problem is to change how they work in combat. It was too easy to pop potion after potion in vanilla DA:O.

Crafting at its most basic definition is making something with your hands, let me make stuff myself instead of buying everything or depending upon someone else entirely. It doesn't sound like this is going to happen though, disappointing.

Agreed.

Modifié par Anomaly-, 06 février 2014 - 05:21 .

[smoke and mirrors]

Sentinel358 wrote...

Anomaly- wrote...
[*]We still won't be doing any of the actual crafting or gathering ourselves. This is very disappointing to me. It reminds me too much of DA2's "crafting", which I hated. So much for my hopes of an Alchemist specialization, or a poison-centric Assassin. Not to mention my beloved gathering and inventory management.
[/list]Discuss.

I couldve sworn they spoke about an emphasis on how we'll need to go out into the world to find the material to craft these weapons, that certain creatures will have a certain material we need for particular items and also how, crafting is not exaclty a skill but will develop to a degree as we craft items

[*]I heard this as well and the more time you put into crafting the more potions spots you will have .

[Sentinel358]

Go to 17:40 of the "crafting and customization" panel and they talk about gathering then a little bit after you'll hear about the crafting in a little bit more depth

[ElitePinecone]

Anomaly- wrote...

We still won't be doing any of the actual crafting or gathering ourselves. This is very disappointing to me. It reminds me too much of DA2's "crafting", which I hated. So much for my hopes of an Alchemist specialization, or a poison-centric Assassin. Not to mention my beloved gathering and inventory management.

Discuss.

I don't think this is necessarily true - we've heard multiple times about hunting animals for hides or other useful items. I'm *sure* there'll be some upgrades that require finding unique or rare items in the world.

Also, the PAX demo had quite a few plants/ingredients in the environment that the Inquisitor could've collected, if the person had stopped to click them. 
Also, I'm fairly sure Alchemy is still a skill. The last I heard about it, a high alchemy skill would do things like increase the numbers of potions you could carry, or perhaps their effectiveness. 

We've heard basically nothing about non-combat skills like trap-making/alchemy/herbology yet, and until we do I wouldn't rule out anything appearing. 

[Maria Caliban]

DA 2's crafting was great and I'm happy a similar system will be in place.

Do you know why I suspect it's going to be used? Because more players probably made stuff in DA 2 than they did in DA:O. It was actually easy to do and didn't involve buying a bunch of useless crap to stuff in your pack or spending points on herbalism skill or what have you.

[funmachine]

Maria Caliban wrote...

DA 2's crafting was great and I'm happy a similar system will be in place.

Do you know why I suspect it's going to be used? Because more players probably made stuff in DA 2 than they did in DA:O. It was actually easy to do and didn't involve buying a bunch of useless crap to stuff in your pack or spending points on herbalism skill or what have you.

My thoughts exactly. I was really happy they got rid of all those tedious aspects that are usually associated with crafting in games.

[Reznore57]

Well I didn't like DA2 crafting , and I didn't DAO one either for that matter.
The fact is it felt very , I don't know , remote ?
You could find some sort of source for crafting material , you didn't really gather anything then you needed a third party to actualy do something.

I tried to play on hardcore thinking crafting would become more vital and I might get interested in that but not really.
I mostly only needed healing potions and they were so easy to find ...I didn't need crafting.
As for rune and stuff , ...
I like simple things , so the different stats all having different effects depending on your class , or if you wanted more crit , damaged or elemental resist , blabla.I just can't be bothered...(it's the kind of things I enjoy in Wow when I used to raid but not in solo games)

In Inquisition , I hope we will be able to actualy gather stuff , I like that .It makes exploration rewarding ,I think.
And craft pretty and unique armors ,I also like having to defeat a special monster and then parade around in some badass dragon scale armor or whatever that nobody else has.
Learning special recipe depending on the different factions you helped is sweet.
And lastly , being able to craft stuff for our main castle ,or a special saddle for our mount , or even really stupid thing like rebuilding an Eluvian and you just get some kind of face in the mirror who keeps on trolling you every time you use it.

[CybAnt1]

To be honest, I barely used it in DA:O, and never did in DA2. Neither system was great.

Well, the previous system was you had to combine runes of tier 1 to make runes of tier 2, then combine runes of tier 2 to make tier 3. Uggh, you don't know how many runes you had to acquire and combine to make a rune of tier 7. It was just a pain in the arse. Goodbye to that. 

Plus, runes in DA:O were bugged, and still bugged in DA:A, too. But that's not a DESIGN problem.

This was something I disliked, because it took away the ability to invest in the skill.

Well, one thing we don't know yet is whether crafting will, per se, be a skill. (Or several skills, like alchemy for potions, poison skill for poisons, etc.)

We do know our strongholds will play some role. This is something I'm wondering about. The strongholds will be customizable. Would that mean if we add an alchemy lab to our strongholds, we can make more/better potions? Add a blackmsith, more/better weapons? I'm hungrily awaiting that answer.

Getting rid of tiers removes the need for people to constantly look at the manual or the guide. They could just call everything by a tier number, but no, that would be too simple. So. Is a halacious fire bomb more or less powerful than a rapacious fire bomb? Hold on that's on Page 326 ... 

Tiers are gone, but 'power' is not. By that, I mean you can make better, stronger poisons in Act 3 (Fell Poison) than you could in Act 1 (Crow Poison), in DA2. Seems to be the approach they might stick with.

Thing is, I actually enjoy the scavenger hunt, and having to decide what to keep/what to throw away while adventuring.

You like inventory management. Cool, so do I. Just look out for the 3000 people glaring at you and me who don't. 

I experienced pretty much 0 exploration in DA2. Not to mention the logical shortcomings of that system. How is it that I can craft 1000 potions after finding 1 elfroot source, but can't craft a single one of these other potions until I find another node?

Oh it is absolutely not logical. But on the other hand, it does reward exploration. I sometimes had to go back to the game's 2 outdoor areas (OK it had 3, I kid, I kid) to find additional "nodes" I had missed so I could craft more. Of course, BTW, the Black Emporium often had a quicker solution to the problem if you had the coin. 

Agreed. Although you couldn't craft armor/weapons in DA:O either, aside from NPCs like Wade.

Yoiu're right. It was already outsourced in DAO. But, at least, it seemed to me, more available, at your Warden's Keep.

Agreed. I understand their point about being able to craft potions at your leisure while fighting the Archdemon, but I'd much rather they just disabled it in combat. If I'm just exploring, I see no reason why I couldn't make some potions or build some traps.

You have a fan in me as to this idea, yes I want them to bring back trapmaking, like yesterday. 

Crafting potions in the field? Well, yes, I like it, but it seems, at least for now, no it won't happen. 

I think crafting will be tied to our strongholds. Now, from what I've seen so far, we might have one main stronghold and several "satellite" keeps. I wonder if crafting will be available at them all, or only "home base".

I guess we'll see.

[Spectre slayer]

The crafting system is nothing like the previous games, we can change individual pieces of armour change the head, change the chest, change hands, change the leggings, change collars, change the colors, etc for us and our companions, also while we're doing our crafting or modifying them we can pre visualize them on our characters before deciding to equip them with it.

We'll see weapons, armour, clothing from different culture and factions, the gold armour is a reward from a faction.

The iconic thing is just them retaing something that identifies them and is recognizable, for Cassandraiit's a trench coat like shell under her armour with long pieces of cloth flowing under about hanging down, and fits their silhouette.

We can change the blade, the hilt, the grip, the core, the materials, the looks of weapons, get runes made and have them put in our weapons and armour, some will have multiple effects like a little more damge and mag defense. We can create a series of weapons that look alike but have different properties or whatever we can come up with.

We still have to/ can  look for materials ourselves, some places we have specific materials only available there, some monsters that drop something specific will only be available at certain locations which they will be tracked, recipes can be found in the world or bought. 

Eventually we'll be able to take any piece of gear in game and make it look anyway we want with stats on par with endgame gear.

There's not a crafting skill, herbalism skill people do that for us but they improve from using them, we have alchemists to do our potion, poison, bombs crafting. When the alchemy system improves and they get more skilled we get more powerful potions, we get to carry more of them and we get more of them in the game, some potions are specific to some areas.

This is mmo level customization, each character has a folder that takes up a server each according to the devs so 10 characters 10 servers, the alchemy system has way more depth then both games, we can't upgrade or craft in the field only in our strongholds.

Modifié par Spectre slayer, 09 février 2014 - 07:43 .

[CybAnt1]

.. I've always felt there were a paucity of potions, and poisons, in both games.

Lots of "curing" potions, few buffing potions.
It would be cool to have both "DoT" poisons and "insta-damage" poisons, poisons that slow people down or slow spell casting down, poisons that paralyze or stun, a slightly wider range, maybe I'm a bit spoiled by WoW.

Oh, and more bombs. Who doesn't want more bombs? Bombs are good.

Growth in variety would be news to my ears.

Modifié par CybAnt1, 06 février 2014 - 02:36 .

[Veruin]

I'm not sure how you can even call DA2's system, a "crafting" system. All you do is find the resource then go home and fill out an order slip. I can understand if people like that method of obtaining supplies, but calling it crafting just seems to be inaccurate.

[CybAnt1]

It is cool, too, that Lady Elegant has a Star Trek transporter that beams the potions she makes directly to your mansion.

I mean, I get it, you're ordering them from her, sending the mats (that don't physically exist in your inventory), she makes the potion, charges you the gold, and mails it back to you. It's just that this all happens in a space/time warp field that makes it instantaneous.

Logic and convenience, sometimes always competing.

[Sentinel358]

^yea its really about immersion in this game, im willing to sacrifice a bit of convenience for that

[Maria Caliban]

Veruin wrote...

I'm not sure how you can even call DA2's system, a "crafting" system. All you do is find the resource then go home and fill out an order slip. I can understand if people like that method of obtaining supplies, but calling it crafting just seems to be inaccurate.

Right. The game tells me that my PC is taking crafting recipes to the crafting station to make her potions and runes (but only if she has the correct crafting resources!) so why in the world would I call that a crafting system?

This is the same a every 'what is an RPG?' topic we have. Skyrim isn't an RPG because it lacks [things I like in an RPG.] The Witcher is a real RPG because it has lots of [things I like an in RPG.]

If my PC doesn't make this with her own two hands using resources that are stuffed in a backpack, there's no crafting happening. Nevermind that in DA:O, my PC never made things with her own two hands, or that it's perfectly possible that my PC has a pile of lyrium and elfroot that's represented as something other than an object in one's inventory.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 06 février 2014 - 03:28 .

[vania z]

Never used crafting in origins, except for three quests - two in lothering: healing poultices and poison for traps, and one to cure regicide poison in orzammar. Almost never use poisons and grenades because they are scarce, I always save them for a special occasion, which never ocurs.

[Sylvius the Mad]

CybAnt1 wrote...

I do think DA2 crafting WAS good for three reasons:
1) they made rune crafting far simpler than the tedious nonsense of DA:A and DA:O (as well as bug free).
2) they did away with crafting tiers in general, instead going for a more general approach. In other words, instead of crafting different tiers of bombs, they simply made the bombs scale.
3) I kind of like finding "veins" or "sources" of materials and then being able to craft based on how many you've found. This rewards exploration, while not forcing you to do the constant scavenger hunt thing to go back for more resources.

I intensely dislike number 3.  If you're going to use materials for crafting, you should have to have those materials with you.

As for number 2, I think the system was insufficiently specific.  Why did the bombs scale?  If there were a crafting skill, and as you improved you made better bombs, that would make sense.  Or if you used better ingredients, then you make better bombs.  But simply have the bombs be better because you needed better bombs didn't make a lot of sense.

[Sekou]

It's an interesting thing, crafting in DA. In DAO I basically eschewed crafting, other than spamming health poultices thanks to that limitless elf vendor, I didn't bother much with the system. But in DA2, with the more esoteric system of the two, I made all sorts of things and utilized them. Basically, I really liked Bioware's refreshing take on resource gathering in DA2- and that as a reward for exploration. DAO crafting was all about fast traveling to a vendor for flasks or roots.

I guess going forward I'd like to see more exotic combinations of various ingredients,and not necessarily being told up front how much I need, ala in DA2. Basically, keep the exploration reward, but add in a skill tree that opens up greater degrees of knowledge and/or grants extra potency.

And easily expand the DA2 system by finding mineral veins for different weapons and woods for shields and plants for coloring dyes.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Maria Caliban wrote...

If my PC doesn't make this with her own two hands using resources that are stuffed in a backpack, there's no crafting happening. Nevermind that in DA:O, my PC never made things with her own two hands, or that it's perfectly possible that my PC has a pile of lyrium and elfroot that's represented as something other than an object in one's inventory.

Then where is it?  What is the point of an inventory system if its not exhaustive?  Every item of gameplay relevance should be in the inventory.  If there's a limit on the inventory, those items should count toward that limit.

I like balancing costs and benefits, but DA2's crafting system seems to eliminate all the costs.

[Aaleel]

DA2 was not crafting, crafting implies you made something yourself. If I shop for ingredients, give them to someone else to prepare and then buy a meal back did I cook? Of course not.

You were a consumer not a crafter in DA2.

[Realmzmaster]

DA2 was crafting. Crafting does not just imply something you made yourself. It implies anything made by hand not necessarily your hand. Which means not made by an automated machine. It does not state that the person must do the crafting only that the item is crafted and that someone (not necessarily the person for whom the item is crafted).

Even in DAO the warden did not have to do the crafting. Others in the party could do the crafting.

The only difference between the DA2 system and the DAO system is that the gamer was given an extra screen which the gamer could manipulate to make the potion using the party member with the herbalism skill. Otherwise the systems are basically the same.

DAO:
1. Buy or find the necessary recipe
2. Find or buy the ingredients .(usually buy)
3. Use crafting screen to combine items
4. Get item..

DA2:
1. Find or buy recipe
2. Find the ingredients (or buy if Black Europium installed and missed the ingredient during previous act).
)
3. Use crafting screen to tell which items are needed.
4. Get item.

Not enough difference for me to care.

Kingdom of Amalur's crafting system for follows the basic formula of DAO, but it also allows of experimentation. If the gamer experiments the gamer can actually stumble upon the recipe without having to find or purchase it.

Experiments can also cause unstable potions that if the character drinks it can cause different effects from nothing to boosting health to poisoning the character. That to me makes Kingdom of Amalur's system closer to crafting than any of the DA systems.

Kingdom of Amalur also allows making of weapons and armor whose effectiveness depends on the materials used and the number of points in blacksmithing.