159 réponses à ce sujet

[garrusfan1]

Eh I am ify on what I like and dislike about it. I liked the DA2 system for some things but hated it for others.


But I prefered it to DAO's Where the only thing I really used was the herbalism skill to make a ton of health potions and lyrium potions.

[Aaleel]

The only difference was a screen? I must have missed being able to make items in the field rather then being tied to only being able to request them in a specific location in DA2.

How was this possible, because there was actually crafting skill involved.

[Pasquale1234]

Realmzmaster wrote...

The only difference between the DA2 system and the DAO system is that the gamer was given an extra screen which the gamer could manipulate to make the potion using the party member with the herbalism skill. Otherwise the systems are basically the same.

DAO:
1. Buy or find the necessary recipe
2. Find or buy the ingredients .(usually buy)
3. Use crafting screen to combine items
4. Get item..

Since you apparently don't remember how it works, I'll rewrite this for you.

DAO:
1.  Learn the skill.  With each level of the skill, the character learns new recipes.  Investing points in learning and upgrading the skill is a strategic choice, as those points will not be available to invest in other skills.
2.  Gather the required quantity of each ingredient needed to produce the item(s).
3.  Use the crafting screen to craft the item(s).  As you are crafting items, you will see your inventory of the ingredients deplete.  Since different levels of the goods may be created, you may exercise judgement in determining exactly how many of which level of which item to produce.
4.  Receive items.

I guess I'll tweak this one, too.

DA2:
1. Find or buy recipe
2. Find the ingredients (or buy if Black Europium installed and missed the ingredient during previous act).
)
3. Use crafting screen to tell which items are needed.
4. Get item.

1.  Find or buy recipe.
2.  Discover locations of resources.
3.  Dispatch order and payment for desired items to the person who actually crafts them.
4.  Receive items.

Not enough difference for me to care.

Since I have a great appreciation for strategic and tactical decisions (as well as inventory management), it does make a difference to me.

Kingdom of Amalur's crafting system for follows the basic formula of DAO, but it also allows of experimentation. If the gamer experiments the gamer can actually stumble upon the recipe without having to find or purchase it.

Experiments can also cause unstable potions that if the character drinks it can cause different effects from nothing to boosting health to poisoning the character. That to me makes Kingdom of Amalur's system closer to crafting than any of the DA systems.

Kingdom of Amalur also allows making of weapons and armor whose effectiveness depends on the materials used and the number of points in blacksmithing.

That sounds like an interesting system.  I quite like crafting in FO, too.

[Sir JK]

I prefer the DA2 approach. Both out of a "lore"-perspective: that crafting takes as much time to learn masterfully as fighting does (ie. noone has enough time to become good enough at both) and that it makes more sense to set up stable supply lines than it does to collect individual pieces of ingredients lying about everywhere.
DA2 treating us to codex entries on the ingredients was another great treat (that admittedly would work for both approaches).

And also because while gathering the correct recipies, exploring the world for ingredients and seeing that work pay off in a product. I feel it's so very often fairly... soulless. It's just routine and tedium.
The best crafting in DAO wasn't potions, traps or anything such. It was Wade and Herren and the dragon armour. It had the same elements (minus recipes) but also gave the processs a soul and a tangible impact. This was even better in Awakening with the upgrades for the keep (Wade + Herren again and the two dwarves). Sandal has some elements of this as well.

It wasn't just us adding ones and twoes and getting threes. Which when I think about it is perhaps my problem with it... it's essentially just math. Add elfroot + dire mushroom and get potion. But it's not even interesting math but trivial arimethics.
Made worse by the fact that you mostly come across the ingredients more or less automatically. Unless you need vast bulks there's very little exploring neccessary.

Experimenting, like Realmzmaster suggest could probably help. As would actually requiring you too look for resources and explore to get the good stuff would help. Tying ingredients to lore as well. But it still would not address the core issue I feel...

Which is why I prefer the DA2 approach. For lack of better options if nothing else.

Modifié par Sir JK, 06 février 2014 - 09:10 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

Sir JK wrote...

I prefer the DA2 approach. Both out of a "lore"-perspective: that crafting takes as much time to learn masterfully as fighting does (ie. noone has enough time to become good enough at both) and that it makes more sense to set up stable supply lines than it does to collect individual pieces of ingredients lying about everywhere.

I agree about the idea of mastering the craft, but I'm then forced to wonder why they didn't already have an extensive set of recipes they could use.

And if setting up supply lines was more involved than just finding the resource, I would probably enjoy that, too.

I think the DA2 approach could work, if it were done better.

[wrdnshprd]

i prefer a crafting system where i have to spend time actually crafting - i.e. spending skill points to improve crafting, gathering resources, buying/finding recipes, clicking on the recipe and crafting the item.

i suppose if im doing the above but just "placing the order" instead of crafting it myself, its ok.. but it just doesnt feel the same because in most cases im not leveling the skill. im just gathering the mats and having someone else do it for me.

on the other hand, crafting my daedric armor set in skyrim took time, but it was *gasp* fun for me, and i got a good amount of satisfaction at the end because, although it was fun, it still took a good amount of effort to get that armor... not to mention the armor is bad azz.

in the DA games, i never really got that feeling.

i understand some of you think that crafting is "tedious".. but thats what the store vendors and item drops are for.

[Wulfram]

I preferred DA2's system, probably because it wasn't really crafting. I haven't encountered a real crafting system that didn't seem exceedingly tedious, utterly broken or, frequently, both.

[Sylvius the Mad]

wrdnshprd wrote...

i prefer a crafting system where i have to spend time actually crafting - i.e. spending skill points to improve crafting, gathering resources, buying/finding recipes, clicking on the recipe and crafting the item.

i suppose if im doing the above but just "placing the order" instead of crafting it myself, its ok.. but it just doesnt feel the same because in most cases im not leveling the skill. im just gathering the mats and having someone else do it for me.

on the other hand, crafting my daedric armor set in skyrim took time, but it was *gasp* fun for me, and i got a good amount of satisfaction at the end because, although it was fun, it still took a good amount of effort to get that armor... not to mention the armor is bad azz.

Skyrim's crafting system really is very good.

[Aaleel]

wrdnshprd wrote...

i prefer a crafting system where i have to spend time actually crafting - i.e. spending skill points to improve crafting, gathering resources, buying/finding recipes, clicking on the recipe and crafting the item.

i suppose if im doing the above but just "placing the order" instead of crafting it myself, its ok.. but it just doesnt feel the same because in most cases im not leveling the skill. im just gathering the mats and having someone else do it for me.

on the other hand, crafting my daedric armor set in skyrim took time, but it was *gasp* fun for me, and i got a good amount of satisfaction at the end because, although it was fun, it still took a good amount of effort to get that armor... not to mention the armor is bad azz.

in the DA games, i never really got that feeling.

i understand some of you think that crafting is "tedious".. but thats what the store vendors and item drops are for.

Yeah, I love that system too, but in general I just love having other activities to level and give me a break from just fighting and talking to people. 

But I love Skyrim, get the materials, craft armor, put any combination of enchantments you want on it, and then name it.  Great to look into your inventory and see the different pieces.

[Wulfram]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Skyrim's crafting system really is very good.

Skyrim's crafting was crazy over-powered.

(and, to me, boring, but that's of course subjective)

[Realmzmaster]

[quote]Pasquale1234 wrote...

Since you apparently don't remember how it works, I'll rewrite this for you.[/quote]

I remember the system quite well since I have over 15 wardens. Let me elaborate 

DAO
1. Have any character learn the skill. Usually the character the gamer used the least. Since the character is rarely used not much of a strategic choice especially depending on the warden's class.
2. Gather or buy the necessary ingredients. Most gamers bought the ingredients in bulk by fast traveling to the various locations that sold the ingredients in bulk.
3. Use the crafting screen to make item. If inventory in an ingredient is low repeat step 2.
4. Receive items

[/quote]

[quote]Since I have a great appreciation for strategic and tactical decisions (as well as inventory management), it does make a difference to me.
[/quote]

I have a great appreciation for strategic and tactical choice. The DAO system does not represent that. The DA2 system simply removed the busy work for some gamers from the DAO system.
Also without a weight system there is no real strategic or tactical choice because of the amount of ingredients that can be carried. The only limiting factors in the DAO system is the amount of gold the party has and the size of the backpack neither of which really is a limiting factor.

Modifié par Realmzmaster, 07 février 2014 - 02:40 .

[CybAnt1]

I intensely dislike number 3.  If you're going to use materials for crafting, you should have to have those materials with you.

Sure. If you're doing the crafting, you should have the mats. It's just that it was already outsourced in DA2. You were having Lady Elegant make the potions, not yourself. It might seem otherwise, but the "crafting station" in your mansion was not in fact a place of crafting, it was a place to ask Lady Elegant to make you potions. By telepathy, so they could be beamed to you by teleportation. 

... seems DA:I will not be bringing the return of player crafting out in the field. 

As for number 2, I think the system was insufficiently specific.  Why did the bombs scale? 

Dunno. My guess is, firebombs are firebombs. Are there really better firebombs than other firebombs? Does it make sense to tier firebombs? 

So they simply made the firebomb damage scale based on your level. 

Of course, they could have also made the AoE size scale, or the stun chance, but didn't. 

If there were a crafting skill, and as you improved you made better bombs, that would make sense.  Or if you used better ingredients, then you make better bombs.  But simply have the bombs be better because you needed better bombs didn't make a lot of sense.

I do agree that it doesn't make much sense that you need the same mats & gold (or mat 'nodes') to make a level 1 combustion grenade and a lvl 20 combustion grenade; but that was the DA2 system. 

[Sylvius the Mad]

Wulfram wrote...

Skyrim's crafting was crazy over-powered.

It was only over powered if you devoted dozens of hours to learning it.  And to justify that sort of investment, it needed to be overpowered.

As for boring, that's the great thing about a sandbox game: if you don't like some aspect of it, don't do that part.

[Sylvius the Mad]

CybAnt1 wrote...

Dunno. My guess is, firebombs are firebombs. Are there really better firebombs than other firebombs? Does it make sense to tier firebombs? 

So they simply made the firebomb damage scale based on your level. 

Of course, they could have also made the AoE size scale, or the stun chance, but didn't.

Scaling is just always dumb.  It never makes any sense within the setting.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Wulfram wrote...

I preferred DA2's system, probably because it wasn't really crafting. I haven't encountered a real crafting system that didn't seem exceedingly tedious, utterly broken or, frequently, both.

I remember Everquest 2 having a really in-depth crafting system from a gameplay perspective.  The player actually had to respond to the crafting process in real time (slowly enough that it wasn't twitchy, but it required your constant attention) in order to make quality products.

[Fast Jimmy]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

I preferred DA2's system, probably because it wasn't really crafting. I haven't encountered a real crafting system that didn't seem exceedingly tedious, utterly broken or, frequently, both.

I remember Everquest 2 having a really in-depth crafting system from a gameplay perspective.  The player actually had to respond to the crafting process in real time (slowly enough that it wasn't twitchy, but it required your constant attention) in order to make quality products.

Yet wouldn't that be putting the player's skill at manipulating the crafting process over what the character's skill should be?

[CybAnt1]

Scaling is just always dumb.  It never makes any sense within the setting.

Tiering works, but see ... then they have a choice.

Just have the tiers appear by number, and be blunt with it. Or ... 

So you might have a tier 2 and a tier 3 firebomb in your backpack. 

Tier 2 does 80 damage, Tier 3 does 100 damage, etc., etc. 

But of course this is fantasy, so everything has to have a name. 

Tier 2 is the rapacious firebomb.
Tier 3 is the helacious firebomb. 
Tier 4 is the blasterific firebomb. 

Which is fine if you're good at memorizing what names correspond to what tiers; otherwise it's usually a run to check the chart, somewhere. 

Be honest; did anybody really memorize that all these materials corresponded to 7 tiered levels of quality for armor?

Iron-Grey Iron-Steel-Veridium-Red Steel-Silverite-Dragonbone? 

Or were they running to the chart that showed where they fell in Tier 1-Tier 7.

This is why, although it seems blunt and unfantasylike, with tiered crafting, give the tier and the corresponding name.

Veridium (Tier 4) Armor of Fiery Thorns .... etc. 

I think that works. 

[wrdnshprd]

Aaleel wrote...

wrdnshprd wrote...

i prefer a crafting system where i have to spend time actually crafting - i.e. spending skill points to improve crafting, gathering resources, buying/finding recipes, clicking on the recipe and crafting the item.

i suppose if im doing the above but just "placing the order" instead of crafting it myself, its ok.. but it just doesnt feel the same because in most cases im not leveling the skill. im just gathering the mats and having someone else do it for me.

on the other hand, crafting my daedric armor set in skyrim took time, but it was *gasp* fun for me, and i got a good amount of satisfaction at the end because, although it was fun, it still took a good amount of effort to get that armor... not to mention the armor is bad azz.

in the DA games, i never really got that feeling.

i understand some of you think that crafting is "tedious".. but thats what the store vendors and item drops are for.

Yeah, I love that system too, but in general I just love having other activities to level and give me a break from just fighting and talking to people. 

But I love Skyrim, get the materials, craft armor, put any combination of enchantments you want on it, and then name it.  Great to look into your inventory and see the different pieces.

agree.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Yet wouldn't that be putting the player's skill at manipulating the crafting process over what the character's skill should be?

There wasn't really any player skill involved, just player attention.  It was less time sensitive than DA2's combat, even with pausing.  And the effectiveness of the abilitiies was driven by character skill.

[Realmzmaster]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Yet wouldn't that be putting the player's skill at manipulating the crafting process over what the character's skill should be?

There wasn't really any player skill involved, just player attention.  It was less time sensitive than DA2's combat, even with pausing.  And the effectiveness of the abilitiies was driven by character skill.

Was EverQoest 2's system set up so that the character could not engage in the crafting if the character's skill was not high enough? Or was player attention able to compensate for lack of character skill?

[EmperorSahlertz]

Why on earth does anyone "like" inventory management and resource gathering? Are you a quartermaster in real life or something?

[Maria Caliban]

Aaleel wrote...

DA2 was not crafting, crafting implies you made something yourself. If I shop for ingredients, give them to someone else to prepare and then buy a meal back did I cook? Of course not.

That would mean DA:O didn't have crafting either as Zevran and the gay blacksmith were the only ones who crafted items for my PC.

[Realmzmaster]

Then other consideration in a crafting system comes down to resources. A game like Kingdoms of Amalur or Skyrim probably could afford more resources for a more robust crafting system since they are basically single character games.

DA games are party based with three other companions in the party. The makeup of those three companions can be different depending on the number of actual potential companions. In Dragon age 2's case there are 9 possible companions that can be arranged in 60480 ways in sets of threes.
Now considering that many gamers like the party banter that goes on certain aspects of the game are going to be streamlined .

Now you can state that DAO had the crafting you liked but it was still streamlined compare to the single character games I mentioned.
I can only assume that is why DAI will have crafting done at the Keep or keeps and not by party members.

[Sir JK]

In Skyrim Bethesda did a clever thing in that they also tied the resource acquisition to the game's chief strength: exploration and it's enviroments. If you want to craft you more or less have ot go off the beaten path. Certain ingredients are only available in certain regions. Like juniper berries in the Reach.

It helped make the whole process much better. The animation when you were working the forge was also very neat, helping it to be more than just a ui screen. I was still not too fond of it, but it was leagues better than most crafting I've seen.

[ElitePinecone]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Why on earth does anyone "like" inventory management and resource gathering? Are you a quartermaster in real life or something?

There's a sense of gradual accomplishment in finding/creating new items or weapons and swapping them around on the character/party. 

It's a tangible way of showing progression in the game world, and I think some players also like the number-crunching aspects.