159 réponses à ce sujet

[Bayonet Hipshot]

A less overpowered version of Skyrim's crafting system would be nice.

[Mistress9Nine]

Yeah, I think it's one of the things that DA2 got right. I so do not care about picking up elfroots petal by petal in the forest. It is fun in Skyrim (to an extent) because it is an open world, where you can roleplay being an alchemist or what have you, but this is not Skyrim.

The Inquisitor the powerful leader of a continent-spanning organization. s/he can't be required to go picking flowers in the forest. Finding veins and fields is far better IMO. It fits the story. You were out carving a piece of land for the Inquisiton and you can across a mine. It makes more sense that you establish a mine, and not go picking at it all by yourself.

Same for the actual crafting. I'd much rather like comissioning others to do it in DA:I. I'm a warrior/mage/rogue, not a smith. Sure if the smith tells me to get a fire ruby, some gold dust and a drake's manparts, so he can craft me an epic sword that spits fireballs, I'm game. But why would I want to spend my time smithing stuff for myself, when there are professionals who can do it far better? The Inquisitor has better uses of his time. He is a leader, he inspires, leads, delegates.

Modifié par Mistress9Nine, 07 février 2014 - 10:20 .

[Aaleel]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Aaleel wrote...

DA2 was not crafting, crafting implies you made something yourself. If I shop for ingredients, give them to someone else to prepare and then buy a meal back did I cook? Of course not.

That would mean DA:O didn't have crafting either as Zevran and the gay blacksmith were the only ones who crafted items for my PC.

No that would mean that Origins had a crafting system that you CHOSE not to use for your PC, whereas Dragon Age 2 had no crafting system and took that choice away.  If people find crafting tedious for their PC, fine don't use it just have someone else do it or go to the store, all you were doing was shopping in DA2 anyway, they just had a shop at home network.  But it should be one their for the players that like doing those types of things with their PC.

[Mistress9Nine]

Aaleel wrote...

But it should be one their for the players that like doing those types of things with their PC.

Actually, I don't think it's that simple. It's either one system or the other. It would seem utterly wasteful to implement both systems, as it requires different sets of resources for the same goal and a rather minor goal at that. If you want the self-catering option, you would have to implement hoardable crafting materials, whereas the home-shopping-network option requires veins or other places of interest that you have to discover.

You could do it with one set of resources and then add the option to charge gold for the home shopping option and no gold for the self-catering option. But in that case people choosing the alchemy trees would be underpowered as they spend skill/talent points on features that cannot be substituted with gold.

[Aaleel]

Mistress9Nine wrote...

Aaleel wrote...

But it should be one their for the players that like doing those types of things with their PC.

Actually, I don't think it's that simple. It's either one system or the other. It would seem utterly wasteful to implement both systems, as it requires different sets of resources for the same goal and a rather minor goal at that. If you want the self-catering option, you would have to implement hoardable crafting materials, whereas the home-shopping-network option requires veins or other places of interest that you have to discover.

You could do it with one set of resources and then add the option to charge gold for the home shopping option and no gold for the self-catering option. But in that case people choosing the alchemy trees would be underpowered as they spend skill/talent points on features that cannot be substituted with gold.

I'm not saying have to systems I'm saying if you don't like crafting go to a merchant and buy something, that's all you were doind in DA2 just you could shop at home.  You weren't maintaining any supply lines, or allocating resources to protecting veins or anything, you just shopped.  Hell you even had to do these things in Awakenings at the risk of other things happening because you sent away resources to protect materials. 

But how was DA2 any different than just having merchants who upgraded their inventories as the game progressed allowing you to buy better things while letting people who like to craft actually make things at home and in the field.

If you're going to have to pay for things anyway why put a system in at all, just improve merchants.  Crafting is supposed to be something in lieu of actually having to buy the item from someone.

Modifié par Aaleel, 07 février 2014 - 01:22 .

[fchopin]

I cant remember if there was crafting in DA2.

[CybAnt1]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Why on earth does anyone "like" inventory management and resource gathering? Are you a quartermaster in real life or something?[

Resource gathering ... well, I've already said, I'm fine with "finding" instead of constant gathering. Which, if there are people selling the mats you can gather, usually becomes constant buying, anyway. Either system promotes exploration (to find the resources, or to find the nodes) it's just constant gathering may mean lots of running back and forth. 

As for inventory management... 
Nobody I'm sure "loves" spells requiring limited mana, or having a cooldown either, but they're there. 

Riddle me this, Emperor: DA has never really had a weight mechanic, which many would find more realistic. After all, who really has the strength to carry around 4 suits of plate mail, other than the strongest qunari? But that aside, they do do what almost all other CRPGs do and have a "slot" limiter. You can only carry as many items as you have slots. Some things stack, so 20 arrows go in 1 slot instead of 20 slots. 

So it's simplified, was even in DAO, but it's there. I forget the exact numbers, but as I recall, in DA2, you start out with 50 item/inventory slots, and then those slots increase by 10 for every backpack you find. Up to 100, if I recall. Anyway, the exact numbers are not my point, but it's the system. Obviously, the fewer inventory slots you have, the more you're going to have to think about what to carry and what not to carry, what to pick up and what not to pick up, what you'll sell and what you'll keep, what you'll put in your home chest for later, etc., etc. You know, I really want that amulet of delayed blast halitosis, but I'll have to drop this junk/vendor trash worth 10 copper pieces to pick it up. Choices. 

But since you want more inventory slots, you're going to go looking for backpacks to increase your inventory. That also promotes exploration -- you have to find them. 

I'd say inventory management is there for the same reason mana is there; some players like being forced to deal with limitations, whether it's on their spellcasting, or what they can carry. 

Modifié par CybAnt1, 07 février 2014 - 01:25 .

[CybAnt1]

One reason to have character-centered crafting is to answer the dilemma of "oh crap I'm out of healing potions" and you're on dungeon level 5. Ahhh, but you were carrying around enough elf root, and have enough herbalism skill, to make some more right there on level 5.

Once you outsource it, so to speak, then no, that's no longer an option. This is the shift 'outsourced' crafting forces. You must return to (a) home base to make more.

[Mistress9Nine]

Aaleel wrote...
If you're going to have to pay for things anyway why put a system in at all, just improve merchants.  Crafting is supposed to be something in lieu of actually having to buy the item from someone.

Well, actually yes and no.

If you are an organization that has crafting, there are still costs involved. So you can find nodes to upgrade inventory, but there will always be some costs such as labour, materials, etc. Unless we want a full potion brewing simulator, where you can break the mortar and have to go to the well with a bucket, heat up water, etc, the gold component is a much better summation of that.

That's why the home shopping network made sense. You had a supplier, who agreed that in exchange for raw materials they will provide you with better prices. You gathered the materials and outsourced the labour. You could say that you only had one such merchant because it wouldn't make sense for Hawke to buy from multiple sources when only one of them has the best price.

Of course this system could be improved upon, but I really hope they stick with it.

CybAnt1 wrote...
One reason to have character-centered crafting is to answer the dilemma of "oh crap I'm out of healing potions" and you're on dungeon level 5. Ahhh, but you were carrying around enough elf root, and have enough herbalism skill, to make some more right there on level 5.

But then again, we were told that it the intent of the developers not to enable you to have an unlimited supply of potions, so either they are doing that exactly for the purpose of giving some advantage to those that choose herbalism, or they want to nix that opportunity to enforce having to regularly return to the outposts (unless you are super awesome at managing combat and never need potions).

Modifié par Mistress9Nine, 07 février 2014 - 02:12 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

What was the riddle (question)?

[Pasquale1234]

Realmzmaster wrote...

Pasquale1234 wrote...

Since you apparently don't remember how it works, I'll rewrite this for you.

I remember the system quite well since I have over 15 wardens. Let me elaborate 

DAO
1. Have any character learn the skill. Usually the character the gamer used the least. Since the character is rarely used not much of a strategic choice especially depending on the warden's class.
2. Gather or buy the necessary ingredients. Most gamers bought the ingredients in bulk by fast traveling to the various locations that sold the ingredients in bulk.
3. Use the crafting screen to make item. If inventory in an ingredient is low repeat step 2.
4. Receive items

Player's choice to nerf the strategic value of DAO's crafting system =/=  a flaw in the design of the system.

CybAnt1 wrote...

One reason to have character-centered crafting is to answer the dilemma of "oh crap I'm out of healing potions" and you're on dungeon level 5. Ahhh, but you were carrying around enough elf root, and have enough herbalism skill, to make some more right there on level 5.

Once you outsource it, so to speak, then no, that's no longer an option. This is the shift 'outsourced' crafting forces. You must return to (a) home base to make more.

Yes, and it's all the more strategic when the limited quantities of elfroot and flasks you are carrying could be used to make, say, healing pots or injury kits of varying levels.

Of course, since DA2 spawned pots in accordance with how many you were carrying, there was never a need to order any from the vendor, anyway.

It takes away nearly all of the excitement of starting out on a dungeon crawl when you know that no preparation is needed and no matter what happens along the way, you'll always have plenty of potions available because they'll respawn as you use them...

Modifié par Pasquale1234, 07 février 2014 - 02:49 .

[Aaleel]

If they didn't want players to have unlimited potions all they had to do was limit the materials. No one said they had to let you buy unlimited flasks or unlimited elf root from the Dalish camp. But if you're in a dungeon or in the wilderness a run out of potions, if you have supplies you should be able to make a potion or two out of what you find on your travels.

In DA2 you basically had pseudo unlimited because once you got below a certain number every enemy kill dropped you potions, even if you had some in a chest at home.

[CybAnt1]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

What was the riddle (question)?

That's what happens when I think about posing things as a question but don't end up writing them exactly to come across that way.

The question is, why do some people prefer a system where you have limited mana and cooldowns for spells, to a system where you can cast as many spells as you want, all the time, constantly?

If you can understand why people prefer that (and why thus that mechanic or something like that is in just about any game), you might get why some people prefer having to do some inventory management. They want limitations, because limitations cause choices, and for some (the perennial debate), RPG'ing is about having to make some (beyond even just those posed by dialogue-interaction). Crap, my inventory is full. You know, I should have looked for that 2nd backpack before I went into this cave. But now that I am where I am, maybe I have to drop the ruby to pick up the amulet. Choices. 

I'm all for simplifying inventory management. DA2 puts all your Junk in one spot. And lets you sell it all at once. Glorious. No reason not to keep doing that. WoW puts all your crafting materials automagically in your crafting bag(s). Good stuff. Back when it had ammo, it all went into automagic ammo bags, too. Inventory can force the player to make choices, without being needlessly complex to find what you're looking for in it. 

Anyway, the other answer I'm alluding to is realism. Some people are bothered by the fact that you can shout or slam the ground (without magic) and stun all the people around you. Others are bothered by the fact that without an inventory system, you can carry around an unlimited amount of stuff. What, does your party have a secret pickup truck running behind them that's invisible? It doesn't seem realistic to carry around an unlimited amount of stuff. Some would say it gets more realistic when you put in a weight system. I mean, again, who the hell can haul around 4 suits of plate mail? The Incredible Hulk? But - DA has never used weight. 

One other point I'll add -- in some games, 4 characters means 4 different inventories, and you're keeping track of each. DA has always decided to simplify this by having a party inventory. And personally, yes, I prefer managing one to managing 4. 

Modifié par CybAnt1, 07 février 2014 - 04:06 .

[CybAnt1]

I will say this much about crafting, in both DA1 and DA2, the game forces you to find new recipes.

Some crafting systems give you all the recipes you need to know at creation, and all you have to do is level/skill up to acquire them. Or go to an easily accessible crafting trainer, and pay them for them.

DA1 and DA2 make you find them, which also promotes exploration.

As I recall, along the lines of "NG+" (sorta), in DAO if you found them in your first game, you already knew them in your second. DA2, I think, worked the same way, though can't remember exactly.

As to another point, yes, one way to make crafting close to worthless, is to make anything you might want to craft, drop for you early and often. But, the design decision for DA2 may have went the other way around, like "OK, we're getting rid of player-centered crafting and making them make potions at home, so perhaps now we'll also make them drop more often."

... I also might be recalling imperfectly, but I think the drop rate was modified by game difficulty level, with Nightmare meaning they dropped very, very rarely.

[Aaleel]

I'm pretty sure the drop rate was based off how many you had on your person, but it only played through the game once so I may be wrong. But I did some testing, if you had less than 10 I think it was they would drop until you had 10 again. Even if you had 50, if you put them in your chest at home and left with zero on you the potions would drop until you had 10 again.

[In Exile]

Anomaly- wrote...
Thing is, I actually enjoy the scavenger hunt, and having to decide what to keep/what to throw away while adventuring. I experienced pretty much 0 exploration in DA2. Not to mention the logical shortcomings of that system. How is it that I can craft 1000 potions after finding 1 elfroot source, but can't craft a single one of these other potions until I find another node?

The scavanger hunt is the worst part, by far, of an RPG for me. I actually consider it active punishment and why I have a visceral and loathing-filled reaction to the word "crafting". 

Agreed. I understand their point about being able to craft potions at your leisure while fighting the Archdemon, but I'd much rather they just disabled it in combat. If I'm just exploring, I see no reason why I couldn't make some potions or build some traps.

One would imagine because it takes specialized equipment to make them? It's not as if we have a baggage train with us, though in RPGs nowadays where inventory restrictions basically don't exist I agree that it doesn't really make sense to restrict from crafting anywhere.

[In Exile]

Sylvius the Mad wrote
I like balancing costs and benefits, but DA2's crafting system seems to eliminate all the costs.

But DA2's system was limited to one location: your home. There's nothing wrong with there being no basic limit there in regards to carry, and the rate-limit on crafting them became money (which for the most expensive potions and poisons you felt quite quickly). 

[In Exile]

Pasquale1234 wrote...

Player's choice to nerf the strategic value of DAO's crafting system =/=  a flaw in the design of the system.

The ability to break the system is absolutely a design flaw in the system. The fact that Mana Clash lolnerfs all mages in DA:O is a huge flaw in DA:O's vaunted "strategic" combat system for the same reason. 

It takes away nearly all of the excitement of starting out on a dungeon crawl when you know that no preparation is needed and no matter what happens along the way, you'll always have plenty of potions available because they'll respawn as you use them... 

Very, very few players were aware about this in DA2 as it went against the crazy hermit hoarder mentality than RPGs foster. Even as a powergamer I had no idea about this feature until someone told me on this forum. 

[Wulfram]

Herbalism is the type of crafting I have the most sympathy for, I think. It fits thematically as something characters could do while adventuring, and because it's creating consumable items it doesn't require that the PC be superior to people who devote their lives to it. Fletching can also make sense if you have consumable arrows.

Though I'd rather keep it simple and not disruptive to the flow of the game. The player could activate the skill and recieve a potion or poison appropriate to the area. With a limitation to the amount of potions that can be made in the same sort of area, perhaps.

Modifié par Wulfram, 07 février 2014 - 05:08 .

[CybAnt1]

The scavanger hunt is the worst part, by far, of an RPG for me. I actually consider it active punishment and why I have a visceral and loathing-filled reaction to the word "crafting". 

Ahhh yes, MMOs and how they do this in oh so lovely a fashion. :innocent:

So to make the sword of dastardly deeds, I need a blue wyvern feather that drops off of dead wyverns - just only about 0.000001% of the time.

Hmmm? Do I have a few weeks to spend "farming" i.e. killing wyverns till the boredom is omnipresent, or just go to the auction house and spend 10,000 gold to buy it? Decisions, decisions. 

Or, I need the red smelly mushroom of power, which is found only in one cave in all of Azeroth. Problem is, every one else is looking for it, it's found in 3 spots in the cave, and oh did I mention it respawns only once per day? 

Ths is before we get to the constant challenge of being able to mine enough of the nodes for basic resources that is a constant chase to get to first. 

[QueenPurpleScrap]

I wonder if they'll do something similar to finding the flower in Ostagar? The mabari keeper asks you to look for a certain flower to help the mabari or you find the flower and Daveth informs you that the mabari keeper is looking for it. Let's say Dagna is your alchemist, I can envision two scenarios:

Dagna: "Inquisitor, I understand you are going to xxxx region, plant y grows there and can be used to make potion/bomb/poison z. If you find it send me word and I'll send a team to gather what we can."
Inquisitor goes to region, sees the plant and sends message to Dagna at next town. When Dagna gets message her team gathers the plants and she can make the item. Perhaps a codex entry about the plant and its possible uses.

Or Inqi finds the plant first . . . (I can see this being the only scenario used)

Inqi: "This is unusual. I wonder if Dagna might know something about it." Inqi gathers plant until next seeing Dagna.
Inqi: "Dagna, I found this in region xxxx."
Dagna: "Oh, I can use this for __________. I'll send a team to gather more of it. Thanks, Inqi. Once I have made ______ I'll send word to all the keeps." Codex entry created.

I am going to assume that this wouldn't happen for the more common plants such as elfroot or deathroot. It would be one way to keep the exploration aspect of crafting in the game without constantly gathering yourself. Although personally I didn't mind that as the Warden. However I can see it doesn't make sense for Inqi to do it.

Each keep could have a storage room that Dagna keeps supplied. Before heading out, you decide which items to take with you. There could be different amounts available based on the scarcity of ingredients. Or only common items are found at all keeps and you have to go to Dagna's keep to access the specials.

Or not.

[Iosev]

One of the aspects I enjoyed in Star Wars: The Old Republic was the ability to take any piece of equipment, modify it with your own choice of statistics, and dye it according to your preference, so I would love to see something similar in Dragon Age: Inquisition.  Perhaps something similar to the adaptive armor in TOR, where the amount of armor you choose adapts to the class of character (e.g., putting a certain piece of armor on a mage will give a different armor rating when placing that same item on a rogue or warrior).

As far as gathering, I'm not as supportive of the idea of constantly gathering materials and working with a limited inventory for a game where themes of survival (e.g., older Resident Evil games) and/or sandbox-design (e.g., recent Fallout games, The Elder Scrolls, etc.) are not a primary focus.  I'm not totally against gathering/limited inventory, but I do think it has to be done in a way that doesn't hinder the average player's ability to focus on the narrative if he or she chooses to do so, especially given Bioware's narrative emphasis in their games.

I personally wasn't a big fan of how it was done in either DA:O or DA 2 (where managing inventory and crafting hit two contrasting extremes), so I'm hoping that Bioware takes a wildly different approach in Inquisition.

[Pasquale1234]

In Exile wrote...

The scavanger hunt is the worst part, by far, of an RPG for me. I actually consider it active punishment and why I have a visceral and loathing-filled reaction to the word "crafting". 

I also enjoy it a great deal, and finding useful stuff is one of the forms of player reward present in many games.

In Exile wrote...

Pasquale1234 wrote...

Player's choice to nerf the strategic value of DAO's crafting system =/= a flaw in the design of the system.

The ability to break the system is absolutely a design flaw in the system. The fact that Mana Clash lolnerfs all mages in DA:O is a huge flaw in DA:O's vaunted "strategic" combat system for the same reason.

DAO's crafting system was not broken.

Realmzmaster's statement "1. Have any character learn the skill. Usually the character the gamer used the least. Since the character is rarely used not much of a strategic choice especially depending on the warden's class."

does not mean that there is no strategic value in making that skill point investment. Investing skill points for any companion is a strategic decision, as is the choice to use a companion for crafting and little else.

His statement "2. Gather or buy the necessary ingredients. Most gamers bought the ingredients in bulk by fast traveling to the various locations that sold
the ingredients in bulk."

also is player's choice, and requires players to make the trip and spend the coin to purchase the items.

The devs made those supplies unlimited for players who want or need massive quantities, and it could be easily avoided.

I think I learned and used Mana Clash maybe once. In any case, I don't generally get too fussed about the inclusion of features for players who perhaps don't especially enjoy combat or simply want it to be easier - as long as the simplification isn't forced on me.

[Sylvius the Mad]

In Exile wrote...

But DA2's system was limited to one location: your home. There's nothing wrong with there being no basic limit there in regards to carry, and the rate-limit on crafting them became money (which for the most expensive potions and poisons you felt quite quickly).

I'll admit, I didn't know crafting in DA2 cost money.

How was it different from shopping?

[Sylvius the Mad]

In Exile wrote...

The scavanger hunt is the worst part, by far, of an RPG for me. I actually consider it active punishment and why I have a visceral and loathing-filled reaction to the word "crafting".

I quite like the scavenger hunt, to be honest.

One would imagine because it takes specialized equipment to make them? It's not as if we have a baggage train with us, though in RPGs nowadays where inventory restrictions basically don't exist I agree that it doesn't really make sense to restrict from crafting anywhere.

The baggage train.  Yet another reason why Dungeon Siege was such a great game.