159 réponses à ce sujet

[Pasquale1234]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

I'll admit, I didn't know crafting in DA2 cost money.

How was it different from shopping?

You needed to first find or buy the recipe and ingredient sources.  Once you had done that, it was home shopping network, with instantaneous delivery.

[Paul E Dangerously]

I do love the fact people have less of a problem with DAO's crafting being the player apparently crushing things together with their bare hands (since they're not carrying any tools) in order to make items than they do DA2's instant delivery system.

As far as inventory limits go, Daggerfall let you buy a horse-drawn cart you could ride in cities and the overworld, and that would sit outside of a dungeon. Nothing's really topped that yet.

Modifié par Sopa de Gato, 07 février 2014 - 09:30 .

[KC_Prototype]

I actually am glad weapons are restricted by class, it makes sense. Why would a warrior use a staff if he/she had no magic ability.

[Veruin]

KC_Prototype wrote...

I actually am glad weapons are restricted by class, it makes sense. Why would a warrior use a staff if he/she had no magic ability.

Even in DA:O staves were mage only.  So, I'm not sure what makes you think they would be available to all classes.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Sopa de Gato wrote...

I do love the fact people have less of a problem with DAO's crafting being the player apparently crushing things together with their bare hands (since they're not carrying any tools) in order to make items than they do DA2's instant delivery system.

As far as inventory limits go, Daggerfall let you buy a horse-drawn cart you could ride in cities and the overworld, and that would sit outside of a dungeon. Nothing's really topped that yet.

A lot of people will go to great lengths in their attempts to venerate DA:O as the epitome of gaming, and DA2 as the bastard successor. It is the internet after all.

[Sylvius the Mad]

KC_Prototype wrote...

I actually am glad weapons are restricted by class, it makes sense. Why would a warrior use a staff if he/she had no magic ability.

You're the player; it's up to you to decide if he would.  By restricting the weapons by class, that choice is being denied you.

Even if you choose traditional class weapons, you still got to choose.

[Sylvius the Mad]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

A lot of people will go to great lengths in their attempts to venerate DA:O as the epitome of gaming

It was no BG or NWN, but it was pretty good.

[CybAnt1]

Sopa de Gato wrote...

I do love the fact people have less of a problem with DAO's crafting being the player apparently crushing things together with their bare hands (since they're not carrying any tools) in order to make items than they do DA2's instant delivery system.

As far as inventory limits go, Daggerfall let you buy a horse-drawn cart you could ride in cities and the overworld, and that would sit outside of a dungeon. Nothing's really topped that yet.

There were a lot of things people did bare before industrialization. You'd be surprised. They used to make wine with their bare feet. As to how much of the rest of them was bare, well, it depended on the kind of wine-making party they wanted to have. :innocent:

And, yes, like others, I am a big fan of the Dungeon Siege pack mule. Stop making one of your party members a mule, and get a real one. 

[CybAnt1]

A lot of people will go to great lengths in their attempts to venerate DA:O as the epitome of gaming, and DA2 as the bastard successor. It is the internet after all.

Nah, Emperor, DA:O could have been much better. The "spiritual succession" many of us were looking for was only partly met. 

And, BTW, DA2 did improve some things - I've said so.

However, I felt it was a 1 step forward, 2 steps back situation. 

P.S. it does seem like they're going to a different kind of crafting in DA:I from either game, and that could be good. 

[EmperorSahlertz]

As long as I won't have to create a bajillion iron daggers to get my Dragonbone Plate armour, then I am fine with pretty much anything for a crafting system. I just have a hard time udnerstanding why some people find the grinding kind of crafting system any fun... It isn't exactly innovative or even intuitive...

[Pasquale1234]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...
I just have a hard time udnerstanding why some people find the grinding kind of crafting system any fun... It isn't exactly innovative or even intuitive...

Maybe some people enjoy a sense of accomplishment when they have to put forth some effort to acquire something.  A health potion is a health potion, but going through a series of steps to create one can make the player feel that they have earned it, and thus ascribe more value to it than one the game continually spawns and throws at you.

Plus... different strokes and all.

[Sylvius the Mad]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

As long as I won't have to create a bajillion iron daggers to get my Dragonbone Plate armour, then I am fine with pretty much anything for a crafting system. I just have a hard time udnerstanding why some people find the grinding kind of crafting system any fun... It isn't exactly innovative or even intuitive...

You don't have to grind iron daggers to improve your skill in Skyrim.  There are other incentives to do crafting.

[Aaleel]

Sopa de Gato wrote...

I do love the fact people have less of a problem with DAO's crafting being the player apparently crushing things together with their bare hands (since they're not carrying any tools) in order to make items than they do DA2's instant delivery system.

As far as inventory limits go, Daggerfall let you buy a horse-drawn cart you could ride in cities and the overworld, and that would sit outside of a dungeon. Nothing's really topped that yet.

It may just be me, but I find the idea of someone grounding up a plant with the butt of their weapon and mixing it in a flask with other ingredients a lot more feasible than standing at a table and magically receiving an item as money magically goes to the merchant. 

But the feasability of it all isn't even my main problem with DA2's system.  Its the fact that I found these materials, can't do anything with them and have to pay someone to get the materials back in the form of a potion, and it wasn't even as if it saved youany money compared to other vendors.  Not to mention you're tied to one location and unable to create supplies anywhere.

If that's all they were going to give us they may as well had just had merchants who upgraded invetory as you made their way through the game. 

Modifié par Aaleel, 08 février 2014 - 12:34 .

[In Exile]

Pasquale1234 wrote...
DAO's crafting system was not broken.

Seeing as how you can make infinite gold off it with a cut-off investment point and the right crafting recepies, and as a result infinite potions, traps, etc., it was most certainly broken. 

But that's not actually what I was responding to in my post. You said "Player's choice to nerf the strategic value of DAO's crafting system =/= a flaw in the design of the system". I disagree. If the player can nerf the system, then it's a flaw. In fact, the being able to sidestep the entire difficutly of the system is presumably the biggest flaw of a system designed to impose some level of strategic difficulty. 

does not mean that there is no strategic value in making that skill point investment. Investing skill points for any companion is a strategic decision, as is the choice to use a companion for crafting and little else.

Skill points are useless in DA:O. No one has persuade but the protagonist, and aside from combat training for warriors/rogues, no skill has value. DA:O punishes you by forcing you to take certain set levels with your party members, but that's a separate design problem. 

Even if we somehow assume the actual items crafted (besides potions) were beyond neglibile in value, then problem is still that there was never a need to choose between them since you could design each character to specialize in one area. So you could craft them all by max level. 

also is player's choice, and requires players to make the trip and spend the coin to purchase the items.

No, because of the way the system was set up it could be exploited for infinite money and therefore infinite supplies.

The devs made those supplies unlimited for players who want or need massive quantities, and it could be easily avoided.

I think I learned and used Mana Clash maybe once. In any case, I don't generally get too fussed about the inclusion of features for players who perhaps don't especially enjoy combat or simply want it to be easier - as long as the simplification isn't forced on me.

A design can't even pretend to call itself strategic when it has an obvious level you can pull to collapse the whole thing. 

[In Exile]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
I'll admit, I didn't know crafting in DA2 cost money.

How was it different from shopping?

In principle, the difference was that the limit on the availability of crafting products turned on: (a) purchasing the right recepie (though in a sense that made it more like meta-shopping, so this isn't enough to distiguish it alone) and ( even if purchased, the recepie couldn't be cashed out without finding the right threshold of ingredients through exploration (which is distinct from shopping).  Given how linear DA2 was I use the word "exploration" loosely.

[In Exile]

Aaleel wrote...
But the feasability of it all isn't even my main problem with DA2's system.  Its the fact that I found these materials, can't do anything with them and have to pay someone to get the materials back in the form of a potion, and it wasn't even as if it saved youany money compared to other vendors.  Not to mention you're tied to one location and unable to create supplies anywhere

How is that different than finding these materials and not being able to do anything with them unless you purchased the right recepie? 

[EmperorSahlertz]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

As long as I won't have to create a bajillion iron daggers to get my Dragonbone Plate armour, then I am fine with pretty much anything for a crafting system. I just have a hard time udnerstanding why some people find the grinding kind of crafting system any fun... It isn't exactly innovative or even intuitive...

You don't have to grind iron daggers to improve your skill in Skyrim.  There are other incentives to do crafting.

You don't have to but it was most effective (until they patched it). So if you are min/max'ing it, then there actually weren't any incentive at all to make anything else with the blacksmithing skill.
Only potion and poison creation in SKyrim were any fun, because there was a layer of experimentation to it. Enchanting and blacksmithing were boring as hell.

[Aaleel]

In Exile wrote...

Aaleel wrote...
But the feasability of it all isn't even my main problem with DA2's system.  Its the fact that I found these materials, can't do anything with them and have to pay someone to get the materials back in the form of a potion, and it wasn't even as if it saved youany money compared to other vendors.  Not to mention you're tied to one location and unable to create supplies anywhere

How is that different than finding these materials and not being able to do anything with them unless you purchased the right recepie? 

It's different in that in one instance I can eventually use the materials if I decide to take the time to educate myself on their use.  Whereas the other instance no matter how much educate myself on their use I'm forced to be constantly dependent on someone else to make items for me while dictating to me where I can have them made.

I understand that some people find crafting boring, but honestly that's what merchants are for, to get items if you don't want to take time to learn to make them yourself.  But if one chooses to dedicate their time to educating themselves on the uses of materials they should be able to be self reliant when it comes acquiring their supplies and not need someone else to make them for them.

Modifié par Aaleel, 08 février 2014 - 02:20 .

[Pasquale1234]

In Exile wrote...

Seeing as how you can make infinite gold off it with a cut-off investment point and the right crafting recepies, and as a result infinite potions, traps, etc., it was most certainly broken. 

And that's a problem because...?

But that's not actually what I was responding to in my post. You said "Player's choice to nerf the strategic value of DAO's crafting system =/= a flaw in the design of the system". I disagree. If the player can nerf the system, then it's a flaw. In fact, the being able to sidestep the entire difficutly of the system is presumably the biggest flaw of a system designed to impose some level of strategic difficulty. 

There is a difference between nerfing a system and nerfing the strategic value of said system. If a player chooses to make skill point investment meaningless for certain character(s), that's on them. The roleplaying value is there for those who choose to utilize it.

Skill points are useless in DA:O.

I disagree. I found great value in them.

No one has persuade but the protagonist,

Player choice.

and aside from combat training for warriors/rogues, no skill has value. DA:O punishes you by forcing you to take certain set levels with your party members, but that's a separate design problem. 

Even if we somehow assume the actual items crafted (besides potions) were beyond neglibile in value, then problem is still that there was never a need to choose between them since you could design each character to specialize in one area. So you could craft them all by max level. 

Again, player choice.

Every one of your objections is about optimizing and WINNING, e.g., "beating the game," taking every possible advantage the game allows in order to do so. You seem to make the assumption that that is how every player would approach the game, but I assure you, it is not.

Believe it or not, the goal of playing an RPG for some people is - to roleplay. If I think Alistair needs to learn Coercion in order to be a better candidate for King, he might learn that skill, even though it would be useless in terms of game mechanics. It can still have roleplay value.

And if I'm playing a Warden with a desire to accumulate personal wealth, that Warden might use crafting skills to earn a vast sum of money. An insecure or fearful Warden might want to have multiple stacks of potions at hand, and a bolder Warden might not care to have any at all. DAO didn't hold my hand, didn't dictate how many potions I could afford, didn't insist that I keep potions in inventory, didn't limit how much coin I could accumulate, didn't impose artificial limits to make it more difficult (as if roleplaying is a competition).

I don't consider RPG game mechanics to be systems to exploit toward optimization, but tools - or toys - to use for the sole purpose of roleplay.

[In Exile]

Pasquale1234 wrote...
And that's a problem because...?

By your own standard, because there was no "strategic value". 

There is a difference between nerfing a system and nerfing the strategic value of said system. If a player chooses to make skill point investment meaningless for certain character(s), that's on them. The roleplaying value is there for those who choose to utilize it.

Again, there's no "strategic value". There is one approach that's clearly and obviously superior: investing in herbalism for the infinite gold and then otherwise specializing one of each characters in a particular crafting skill (if we grant that each skill actually has value). 

It's like saying there's "strategic value" in a choice between using a sharp stick or an AK-47 in a modern conflict. 

I disagree. I found great value in them.

Give three examples. 
 

Player choice.

Persuade is not a matter of player choice. Only the protagonist has that skill, which in and of itself is broken. [Edit: I see this is unclear. I obviously admit there is choice in whether or not you have a protagonist with the skill. My point was that there is no choice in who has the skill: it is the protagonist or no one]. 

Mana Clash is "player choice", but it isn't any less of an auto-nerf for all enemy mages. 
 

Every one of your objections is about optimizing and WINNING, e.g., "beating the game," taking every possible advantage the game allows in order to do so. You seem to make the assumption that that is how every player would approach the game, but I assure you, it is not.

My point is this: you cannot talk about "strategic value" without evaluating the actual "value" of the options. If you want to go on and say there's some intrisic RPG value about picking suboptimal skills and skills (and by extension crafting) are important features of a game even when they are low quality and broken, then by all means make that argument. 

That wasn't what you argued initially. I don't have a particular position on this intrisic RPG value argument other than to say that I think that you're wrong to say that "optimizing" and approaching the game as an RPG are distinct goals. 

They are not. A character (in-game) can be a power gamer, in the sense of wanting to use the known rules of the world to accrue as much power as possible. In fact, I'd argue that Morrigan's mentality is pretty much the trope setter for what power gaming is in terms of the actual reality of Thedas.

I don't consider RPG game mechanics to be systems to exploit toward optimization, but tools - or toys - to use for the sole purpose of roleplay.

Again, your initial post about "strategic value" says otherwise. 

Modifié par In Exile, 08 février 2014 - 04:49 .

[CybAnt1]

Mana Clash was not only overpowered, it was bugged. For some players, it would cause a crash to desktop after being used, it depended on OS/GFX card, etc.

It not only lolnerfed mages, it could blast your game out of existence.

I guess they could have fixed both problems, but as they often do, sometimes they just dump things they don't want to go to the trouble of fixing.

Anyway. That is probably more off topic than inventory management. :innocent:

Modifié par CybAnt1, 08 février 2014 - 04:48 .

[Nightdragon8]

Sentinel358 wrote...

Anomaly- wrote...
We still won't be doing any of the actual crafting or gathering ourselves. This is very disappointing to me. It reminds me too much of DA2's "crafting", which I hated. So much for my hopes of an Alchemist specialization, or a poison-centric Assassin. Not to mention my beloved gathering and inventory management.
[/list]Discuss.

I couldve sworn they spoke about an emphasis on how we'll need to go out into the world to find the material to craft these weapons, that certain creatures will have a certain material we need for particular items and also how, crafting is not exaclty a skill but will develop to a degree as we craft items

Don'y use bullet points they are annoying.

So what they plan to add to a single player game is WoW mechanics of grinding to get leathers and other stuff... how nice.... just what I wanted in a Single player game...  I mean REALLY!? that was one of the least fun things to do in any game to be honest. go frolicing around to get leathers and other stuff... starting to sound more and more like a bad MMO....

[Pasquale1234]

In Exile wrote...
By your own standard, because there was no "strategic value". 

I stated no such standard.

Again, there's no "strategic value". There is one approach that's clearly and obviously superior: investing in herbalism for the infinite gold and then otherwise specializing one of each characters in a particular crafting skill (if we grant that each skill actually has value). 

It's like saying there's "strategic value" in a choice between using a sharp stick or an AK-47 in a modern conflict.

You continue to deny the application of strategy in roleplay. Slaying the archdemon might not be the primary objective of any given Warden, and completing the game might not be a goal of the player. Different goals dictate different strategies. You want to slay the archdemon. I want to roleplay.

You're also ignoring the fact that for any given character, the skill points spent on that crafting skill cannot be applied to anything else. Even if there are adequate skill points available for everything you want a character to do by end-game, you still need to choose their allocation at every point in the process.

[CybAnt1]

Systems done wrong are not good arguments against the same systems done right.

Perhaps crafting skills in specific and character skills in general were not done right in DA:O.

That doesn't mean that they couldn't be implemented better, and work better, in DA:I -- if they are going that route, of course.

It doesn't look like crafting skills are in the skills comeback of Exploration Skills, though. It is possible by upgrading your stronghold(s), you may be upgrading your alchemists and blacksmiths in terms of what they can make; and you will probably still be finding recipes and materials and/or material nodes for them out there in the world. After which, they can make you better stuff.

I also wonder what role the new "agent" system will play in all this too. Perhaps you will have agents whose main duties are to gather stuff. "Bob, get me elfroot!" And Agent Bob brings back 1 elfroot once a day - or something like that. 

That looks like where they are going, but as always - we will have to see.

Oh and BTW, I have never seen a dichotomy between roleplaying "vs." power gaming. I absolutely agree with IE here. Power gaming is simply A WAY of roleplaying a character who might be very like Morrigan in being interested in acquiring power at all costs. Even at the cost of other aspects of RP like relationships or morality.

Modifié par CybAnt1, 08 février 2014 - 06:19 .

[CybAnt1]

So what they plan to add to a single player game is WoW mechanics of grinding to get leathers and other stuff... how nice.... just what I wanted in a Single player game...  I mean REALLY!? that was one of the least fun things to do in any game to be honest. go frolicing around to get leathers and other stuff... starting to sound more and more like a bad MMO....

No, I doubt they will adopt the fractional drop rates MMOs have become infamous for.

I imagine if you need green basilisk hide, every green basilisk will drop it when slain. Of course, there may be only 1 to find in a very large world, or a handful, in an area you have to locate, to get it.