[quote]ElitePinecone wrote...
I don't think this is necessarily true - we've heard multiple times about hunting animals for hides or other useful items. I'm *sure* there'll be some upgrades that require finding unique or rare items in the world.[/quote]
Yes, I remember hearing it, but after what they've said about "agents" I'm just a little concerned that they will be one-off type deals where once we find a source of something the search is over.
[quote]
Also, the PAX demo had quite a few plants/ingredients in the environment that the Inquisitor could've collected, if the person had stopped to click them. [/quote]
That's true. That makes me a little more hopeful.
[quote]
We've heard basically nothing about non-combat skills like trap-making/alchemy/herbology yet, and until we do I wouldn't rule out anything appearing.
[/quote]
One can hope.
[quote]Maria Caliban wrote...
DA 2's crafting was great and I'm happy a similar system will be in place.
Do you know why I suspect it's going to be used? Because more players probably made stuff in DA 2 than they did in DA:O. [/quote]
Well that should come as a surprise to no one, as it was essentially reduced to buying items from a shop. Plenty of people who play RPGs manage to buy things from a shop, right? You could have just hidden the shop(s) somewhere, and you would have had the exact same function as DA2's "crafting" provided.
[quote]
It was actually easy to do and didn't involve buying a bunch of useless crap to stuff in your pack or spending points on herbalism skill or what have you. [/quote]
So what you mean is, it wasn't actually crafting. At least not by the player.
[quote]CybAnt1 wrote...
We do know our strongholds will play some role. This is something I'm wondering about. The strongholds will be customizable. Would that mean if we add an alchemy lab to our strongholds, we can make more/better potions? Add a blackmsith, more/better weapons? I'm hungrily awaiting that answer.[/quote]
If this is the case, that would still be disappointing to me. I want my character to have to invest in a crafting skill. That's what allows me a different play style, as well as giving me more options to define my character's strengths/weaknesses. I'd like to see crafting related specializations, and I'd like the skill points to draw from the same pool as combat related skills/talents. You should not be able to have both.
[quote]
Tiers are gone, but 'power' is not. By that, I mean you can make better, stronger poisons in Act 3 (Fell Poison) than you could in Act 1 (Crow Poison), in DA2. Seems to be the approach they might stick with.[/quote]
But nothing about the process changes, which I don't like. I enjoy the feeling of progress, ie: putting more effort/investing more skill points into making better items. Once again, you just find the shop and that's it. From that point on, it's just a shop.
[quote]
You like inventory management. Cool, so do I. Just look out for the 3000 people glaring at you and me who don't. [/quote]
Evidently those people don't enjoy crafting. Fortunately for them, it's entirely optional. And they still have shops they can buy from.
[quote]CybAnt1 wrote...
.. I've always felt there were a paucity of potions, and poisons, in both games.
Lots of "curing" potions, few buffing potions.
It would be cool to have both "DoT" poisons and "insta-damage" poisons, poisons that slow people down or slow spell casting down, poisons that paralyze or stun, a slightly wider range, maybe I'm a bit spoiled by WoW.
Oh, and more bombs. Who doesn't want more bombs? Bombs are good.
Growth in variety would be news to my ears.
[/quote]
Agreed. Actually, I think the majority of potions/poisons should be over-time effects.
[quote]Maria Caliban wrote...
Right. The game tells me that my PC is taking crafting recipes to the crafting station to make her potions and runes (but only if she has the correct crafting resources!) so why in the world would I call that a crafting system? [/quote]
Because you're either easily fooled or have low expectations of a crafting system. You are taking
gold to a
shop after you've
found it. If the game told you that sometimes you were in
combat, while at other times you were
sword fighting, would you believe they were two different things?
[quote]
If my PC doesn't make this with her own two hands using resources that are stuffed in a backpack, there's no crafting happening.[/quote]
Maybe there is, but you aren't the one doing it. We could also assume that the blacksmith crafted all those weapons he is selling to us, but because we were not involved it isn't crafting from our perspective.
[quote]Sekou wrote...
DAO crafting was all about fast traveling to a vendor for flasks or roots.[/quote]
Now we come back to that old design vs implementation debate. DA:O's design was to require the player to find and manage their own ingredients, and invest in a crafting skill in order to craft anything. Those are all good things, imo. The implementation fell a little short, because of things like vendors having unlimited supplies and most of poison making being underpowered. Fix those things and you have the same design with better implementation.
[quote]
I guess going forward I'd like to see more exotic combinations of various ingredients,and not necessarily being told up front how much I need, ala in DA2. Basically, keep the exploration reward, but add in a skill tree that opens up greater degrees of knowledge and/or grants extra potency.[/quote]
Agreed.
[quote]Realmzmaster wrote...
DA2 was crafting. Crafting does not just imply something you made yourself. It implies anything made by hand not necessarily your hand. Which means not made by an automated machine. It does not state that the person must do the crafting only that the item is crafted and that someone (not necessarily the person for whom the item is crafted).[/quote]
Like I said, in that case we can assume that the blacksmith crafted everything he is selling to us and therefore, we have a crafting system.
[quote]
Even in DAO the warden did not have to do the crafting. Others in the party could do the crafting.[/quote]
Well then others in the party would have had to invest in the skill (at the player's discretion), and the player still needed to gather and manage the ingredients. That is the big difference.
[quote]
The only difference between the DA2 system and the DAO system is that the gamer was given an extra screen which the gamer could manipulate to make the potion using the party member with the herbalism skill. Otherwise the systems are basically the same.[/quote]
They're not, at all. Let's revise those steps.
DAO:
1. Make a strategic choice to invest in a crafting skill.2. Buy or find the necessary recipe.
3. Find or buy the ingredients
each time you craft something.
4. Use crafting screen to
find a strategic balance between what you need and how much you have.
5. Get item.
6. Make items on the fly as requirements change provided you have the ingredients. Another key difference from a shop in town.DA2:
1. Find or buy recipe.
2. Find the ingredient at least once, which is equivalent to finding the shop.
3. Use crafting screen to tell which items are needed. This is not even a step as it boils down to selecting which item you want from the shop provided you have the gold.
3. Get item.
[quote]
Kingdom of Amalur's crafting system for follows the basic formula of DAO, but it also allows of experimentation. If the gamer experiments the gamer can actually stumble upon the recipe without having to find or purchase it.
Experiments can also cause unstable potions that if the character drinks it can cause different effects from nothing to boosting health to poisoning the character. That to me makes Kingdom of Amalur's system closer to crafting than any of the DA systems.[/quote]
I also enjoy that feature and would like it to be present in DA:I, but it's less important to me than the above differences.
[quote]
Kingdom of Amalur also allows making of weapons and armor whose effectiveness depends on the materials used and the number of points in blacksmithing.[/quote]
As did DA:O, minus the weapons/armor.
[quote]Sir JK wrote...
I prefer the DA2 approach. Both out of a "lore"-perspective: that crafting takes as much time to learn masterfully as fighting does (ie. noone has enough time to become good enough at both)[/quote]
Which is why I want crafting skills to draw from the same pool as combat skills.
[quote]
and that it makes more sense to set up stable supply lines than it does to collect individual pieces of ingredients lying about everywhere. [/quote]
Except that we don't have access to that supply line while out in the field.
[quote]
And also because while gathering the correct recipies, exploring the world for ingredients and seeing that work pay off in a product. I feel it's so very often fairly... soulless. It's just routine and tedium. [/quote]
To you. To others, such as myself, it's a nice having another gameplay option. For those like you, there are still shops that offer the exact same experience you had in DA2.
[quote]
The best crafting in DAO wasn't potions, traps or anything such. It was Wade and Herren and the dragon armour. It had the same elements (minus recipes) but also gave the processs a soul and a tangible impact. This was even better in Awakening with the upgrades for the keep (Wade + Herren again and the two dwarves). Sandal has some elements of this as well. [/quote]
I disagree. I only did the Wade thing once, and never did anything with the keep in Awakening. Those things aren't as interesting or rewarding to me.
[quote]
It wasn't just us adding ones and twoes and getting threes. Which when I think about it is perhaps my problem with it... it's essentially just math. Add elfroot + dire mushroom and get potion. But it's not even interesting math but trivial arimethics. [/quote]
That part of it, sure. But there are additional considerations, like "I have 4 elfroot and 5 lyrium dust, but only 5 flasks. Should I make all mana potions, all healing potions, or some combination of the two? What do I expect to need more?" Not to mention, "I really need a warmth balm here, good thing I chose to hold on to my 3 fire crystals instead of trashing them to pick up that mace back there".
[quote]
Made worse by the fact that you mostly come across the ingredients more or less automatically. Unless you need vast bulks there's very little exploring neccessary. [/quote]
Implementation issue.
[quote]Wulfram wrote...
I preferred DA2's system, probably because it wasn't really crafting. I haven't encountered a real crafting system that didn't seem exceedingly tedious, utterly broken or, frequently, both.[/quote]
I just don't get this argument. DA:O's crafting was optional. You weren't forced to do it. You still had shops to buy things from, and even somewhat hidden shops that gave you exactly the same functionality as DA2's "system". You get to have your cake and eat it, too. Where is the problem in that? Is it just that the game doesn't tell you you're crafting when you aren't?
[quote]Realmzmaster wrote...
I remember the system quite well since I have over 15 wardens. Let me elaborate
DAO
1. Have any character learn the skill. Usually the character the gamer used the least. Since the character is rarely used not much of a strategic choice especially depending on the warden's class.[/quote]
Implementation issue. As I said, have player skill influence effectiveness with items of their craft and have crafting skills draw from the same pool as combat skills. Problem solved.
[quote]
2. Gather or buy the necessary ingredients. Most gamers bought the ingredients in bulk by fast traveling to the various locations that sold the ingredients in bulk.[/quote]
Another implementation issue. Fix the unlimited vendor supplies, problem solved.
[quote]
3. Use the crafting screen to make item. If inventory in an ingredient is low repeat step 2.
4. Receive items[/quote]
Oversimplification that ignores all the key differences I pointed out earlier.
[quote]
I have a great appreciation for strategic and tactical choice. [/quote]
Then I am shocked that you would not recognize how much more DA:O's system offers, particularly if the implementation problems are fixed.
[quote]
Also without a weight system there is no real strategic or tactical choice because of the amount of ingredients that can be carried. The only limiting factors in the DAO system is the amount of gold the party has and the size of the backpack neither of which really is a limiting factor.[/quote]
There were many times I was deep in a dungeon and had to choose between keeping my elfroots, or dropping them for the nice new piece of armor I found.
[quote]Maria Caliban wrote...
[quote]Aaleel wrote...
DA2 was not crafting, crafting implies you made something yourself. If I shop for ingredients, give them to someone else to prepare and then buy a meal back did I cook? Of course not. [/quote]
That would mean DA:O didn't have crafting either as Zevran and the gay blacksmith were the only ones who crafted items for my PC. [/quote]
No, that just means your PC didn't do any crafting on that particular playthrough.
...It's late. This thread really took off without me. I'll respond to more tomorrow.
Modifié par Anomaly-, 08 février 2014 - 08:16 .
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we have many characters © in fact, we have so few skills and so many characters that each character can fully master a crafting skill (d) all the crafting skills save herbalism are worthless, providing no tangible in-game benefit relative to other more powerful abilities; such that (e) there is no "strategic" value in the choice by any accepted definition of the word.
. Not even a mortar and pestle. But I assure you that I'll concede this point if laboratory equipment start to take inventory space (yes, I know they did in Morrowind). 
