159 réponses à ce sujet

[Aaleel]

Sir JK wrote...

Aaleel wrote...

Well I actually wasn't responding to your post.

But it wasn't the supplyline that stopped Hawke from crafting in the field, it was the fact that Hawke didn't know how to use the materials.  Hawke could have easily stockpiled the materials and made his/her own supplies, or opened up his/her own shop.  But that would have involved interacting with the one city you were stuck in all game, which is another topic all together.

You were in city almost a decade and the majority of that time you were well off.  Who in their right mind would do the legwork, fund the operation and then still pay for the product?  If someone wanted to do that fine, but the player should have had the option to say the hell with this set up I can do this myself.

Well... Hawke isn't a craftsman. It's really that simple. Lady Elegant has spent the majority of her life to learn how to brew potions and she's a master at it. Hawke has spent the equalient amount of time to learn how to fight and as such hasn't learned what is needed to brew a good potion/mix a poison/carve a lyrium rune.

It's actually more difficult to explain why Hawke would be able to do that than otherwise. Crafting won't ever be a thing for the sake of realism. But it might be a thing for the sake of gameplay, which in a game is the important thing.

7 years you had this set up lol.  Hawke could have supplied the merchant with better materials to sell better product to other people in Kirkwall while getting his/hers for free.  The system in DA2 provided no benefit to Hawke at all that was different than just going to the store.

[Anomaly-]

[quote]Fast Jimmy wrote...

[quote]Sylvius the Mad wrote...
I remember Everquest 2 having a really in-depth crafting system from a gameplay perspective.  The player actually had to respond to the crafting process in real time (slowly enough that it wasn't twitchy, but it required your constant attention) in order to make quality products.
[/quote]

Yet wouldn't that be putting the player's skill at manipulating the crafting process over what the character's skill should be?
[/quote]
I suspect EQ2's system was pretty similar to Vanguard's system. There were several stages in the crafting process, and you had several options as to the approach you took in each stage. You could skimp a bit on the first stage, then try to make up for it in later stages, etc etc. It all affected the final product. Your character's skill just made it much easier to obtain higher quality. It was a great system.

I also enjoyed Skyrim's crafting. It had balance issues and such, but there is a mod that does a good job of improving it.

[quote]Mistress9Nine wrote...
Same for the actual crafting. I'd much rather like comissioning others to do it in DA:I. I'm a warrior/mage/rogue, not a smith. [/quote]
One of my big issues with this is from a gameplay perspective. An Assassin would be a good candidate to specialize in poisons, while a Ranger or Spirit Healer might specialize in poultices. That would be a nice option to have. Instead of all the Rogues just teleporting to the enemy's back and hitting the same hotkeys. One of DA2's big problems for me was that, despite larger specialization trees, they all played pretty much the same. There was very little gameplay variety.

[quote]
But why would I want to spend my time smithing stuff for myself, when there are professionals who can do it far better? The Inquisitor has better uses of his time. He is a leader, he inspires, leads, delegates.[/quote]
Then why would the Inquisitor waste his time fighting battles when I'm sure he has plenty of trained soldiers at his disposal? Yet we can be pretty certain we are going to be fighting battles. If we are able to assume our Inquisitor had some combat training in the past, why can't we assume he had been an Herbalist or Alchemist in the past?

[quote]CybAnt1 wrote...
As I recall, along the lines of "NG+" (sorta), in DAO if you found them in your first game, you already knew them in your second.
[/quote]
That didn't happen. You might be thinking of specializations.

[quote]In Exile wrote...
The scavanger hunt is the worst part, by far, of an RPG for me. I actually consider it active punishment and why I have a visceral and loathing-filled reaction to the word "crafting". [/quote]
I have the same reaction to the words "streamlining" and "simplification". Different strokes for different folks. Fortunately, crafting is entirely optional so you wouldn't even need to be aware of it's existence.

[quote]
One would imagine because it takes specialized equipment to make them? It's not as if we have a baggage train with us, though in RPGs nowadays where inventory restrictions basically don't exist I agree that it doesn't really make sense to restrict from crafting anywhere.
[/quote]
Yes, I can see that argument. Personally, I wouldn't mind sacrificing some inventory slots to carry around some gear. Or they could do it the Elder Scrolls way and have crafting stations set up around the world so we aren't just doing everything at home base. After all, it makes sense that we wouldn't be the only people crafting in this world, right?

[quote]In Exile wrote...
There's nothing wrong with there being no basic limit there in regards to carry, and the rate-limit on crafting them became money (which for the most expensive potions and poisons you felt quite quickly).
[/quote]
Problem is, it becomes identical to a shop. There is no real difference.

[quote]In Exile wrote...
The ability to break the system is absolutely a design flaw in the system. The fact that Mana Clash lolnerfs all mages in DA:O is a huge flaw in DA:O's vaunted "strategic" combat system for the same reason. [/quote]
That isn't a design issue. If you simply re-balanced Mana Clash, the design would not have changed, but the issue would be gone. That being said, you can "break" many systems if you really try to, but that's your choice. If you enjoy the system, why break it? For instance, I could just use killallhostiles and completely break every encounter, but because I enjoy actually playing the game I don't. I've played a few mages, and never once used Mana Clash.

[quote]In Exile wrote...
No, because of the way the system was set up it could be exploited for infinite money and therefore infinite supplies.[/quote]
This, as with most everything else you've mentioned is not the system's design at fault. The amount of money made in this fashion is just a parameter, not the system itself. Reduce that number and the issue goes away, without changing the function of the system. Same thing with skill points being useless (I don't agree, btw). Add more useful skills to contend with crafting skills, reduce the number of available skill points and you've solved the problem without changing the design.

[quote]In Exile wrote...
and ( even if purchased, the recepie couldn't be cashed out without finding the right threshold of ingredients through exploration (which is distinct from shopping). [/quote]
But it's a one time requirement, much like finding the shop.

[quote]
Given how linear DA2 was I use the word "exploration" loosely.
[/quote]
Indeed.

[quote]Nightdragon8 wrote...
Don'y use bullet points they are annoying.[/quote]
Readability annoys you?

[quote]
So what they plan to add to a single player game is WoW mechanics of grinding to get leathers and other stuff... how nice.... [/quote]
Because crafting systems like this never existed before WoW or MMOs...

[quote]
just what I wanted in a Single player game... I mean REALLY!? that was one of the least fun things to do in any game to be honest. go frolicing around to get leathers and other stuff
[/quote]
So it doesn't appeal to you. Good thing it's optional.

[quote]CybAnt1 wrote...

Systems done wrong are not good arguments against the same systems done right.

Perhaps crafting skills in specific and character skills in general were not done right in DA:O.

That doesn't mean that they couldn't be implemented better, and work better, in DA:I -- if they are going that route, of course.[/quote]
Thank you. I don't understand this logic of scrapping an entire system rather than improving it, because the implementation was less than perfect.

[Realmzmaster]

Anomaly-wrote..

I just don't get this argument. DA:O's crafting was optional. You weren't forced to do it. You still had shops to buy things from, and even somewhat hidden shops that gave you exactly the same functionality as DA2's "system". You get to have your cake and eat it, too. Where is the problem in that? Is it just that the game doesn't tell you you're crafting when you aren't?

DAO's crafting system was not entirely optional. The side quest Exotic Methods requires a Herbalism: Rank of 4 to make the Dwarven Regicide Antidote. The side quest fortunately is optional and can be declined, but the gamer will not know the requirements until it is accepted. The character does not get the recipe until then.

Once accepted it would have to remain an uncompleted quest (unless one of the characters has a herbalism rank of 4), because there is no way to buy the antidote.

Modifié par Realmzmaster, 08 février 2014 - 10:20 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

Realmzmaster wrote...

Who is carrying the necessary equipment to perform all of this potion, trap, poison or rune making? Where is that equipment in the party's inventory? Not even a mortar and pestle? You cannot tell me that all but the simplest potions do not require alchemical equipment.

I will mention Kingdoms of Alamur which had crafting stations. The protagonist could not make anything unless the protagonist was at the proper craft station. The protagonist could use any crafting station including the enemy's.

The protagonist couldalso have several safehouses around the land which could be upgraded to include the craft station.

The protagonists could have all the necessary ingredients and recipe but without equipment nothing could be made. That to me is the way a crafting system should work.

So I have a problem when the protagonist in DAO is able to craft more than the simplest potions, traps. poisons or runes in the field especially the rune making system used in Awakenings.  The rune crafting is the poster child for bad crafting. (and why some gamers find crafting systems tedious).

Where is the Warden's food?  Or his bedroll?  Or the tents?  There are clearly some materials he is carrying which are not modelled within the inventory system.

His crafting tools would have to be among them.

Modifié par Sylvius the Mad, 09 février 2014 - 03:06 .

[Realmzmaster]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...

Who is carrying the necessary equipment to perform all of this potion, trap, poison or rune making? Where is that equipment in the party's inventory? Not even a mortar and pestle? You cannot tell me that all but the simplest potions do not require alchemical equipment.

I will mention Kingdoms of Alamur which had crafting stations. The protagonist could not make anything unless the protagonist was at the proper craft station. The protagonist could use any crafting station including the enemy's.

The protagonist couldalso have several safehouses around the land which could be upgraded to include the craft station.

The protagonists could have all the necessary ingredients and recipe but without equipment nothing could be made. That to me is the way a crafting system should work.

So I have a problem when the protagonist in DAO is able to craft more than the simplest potions, traps. poisons or runes in the field especially the rune making system used in Awakenings.  The rune crafting is the poster child for bad crafting. (and why some gamers find crafting systems tedious).

Where is the Warden's food?  Or his bedroll?  Or the tents?  There are clearly some materials he is carrying which are not modelled within the inventory system.

His crafting tools would have to be among them.

You know that I am a big proponent of modeling all of that in the inventory system and having weight restrictions. I was simply stating it in the terms of the crafting system.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Realmzmaster wrote...

You know that I am a big proponent of modeling all of that in the inventory system and having weight restrictions. I was simply stating it in the terms of the crafting system.

Sure, but here DA2's crafting exceeds DAO's only based on a standard that neither game even attempts to meet elsewhere in the game.  Neither game models those extra details, so holding that DA2's crafting is superior because it avoids the need to model them (which it wouldn't have done, given that it doesn't model the others) seems absurd.

I prefer a system that lends itself to those details over a system that doesn't, even if neither system actually as them.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Realmzmaster wrote...

DAO's crafting system was not entirely optional. The side quest Exotic Methods requires a Herbalism: Rank of 4 to make the Dwarven Regicide Antidote. The side quest fortunately is optional and can be declined, but the gamer will not know the requirements until it is accepted. The character does not get the recipe until then.

Once accepted it would have to remain an uncompleted quest (unless one of the characters has a herbalism rank of 4), because there is no way to buy the antidote.

But it's an optional quest.  So not only do you not have to take it, but you also don't have to complete it even if you do take it.

So crafting remains optional.  Even if you accept the quest, you're still never forced to do any crafting.

[CybAnt1]

This idea that you can't be an adventurer & crafter both; well most MMOs blow that out of the water. On the other hand, they DO logically assume that if you're an adventurer, you might have the time to be a blacksmith or alchemist on the side, but not both a blacksmith and an alchemist (well, you CAN take, in WoW, two production professions, but only at the cost of a gathering ability, which means to produce you're constantly going to the auction house.)

The assumption is that there isn't always adventure for adventurers to do, and on their downtime, they make stuff. Often, but not always, the kinds of stuff they would need themselves; OR, the kind of stuff to sell to others, to make extra gold.

Modifié par CybAnt1, 09 février 2014 - 01:38 .

[Sir JK]

CybAnt1 wrote...

This idea that you can't be an adventurer & crafter both; well most MMOs blow that out of the water. On the other hand, they DO logically assume that if you're an adventurer, you might have the time to be a blacksmith or alchemist on the side, but not both a blacksmith and an alchemist (well, you CAN take, in WoW, two production professions, but only at the cost of a gathering ability, which means to produce you're constantly going to the auction house.)

The assumption is that there isn't always adventure for adventurers to do, and on their downtime, they make stuff. Often, but not always, the kinds of stuff they would need themselves; OR, the kind of stuff to sell to others, to make extra gold.

Sure, but that means we're also departing from the recogniceable (in the sense; if crafting is that easy to learn why would anyone be able to make a living out of it. Which by extent there's little reason to live in a city in the first place). It's not super important for me. I can accept the player being able to craft, but it's a factor that weighs against it. If the crafting was actually fun, I wouldn't hold it against it that it makes the world slightly less believeable.

But seeing that I don't like the core mechanics behind traditional crafting in rpgs (and they're virtually always the same) then it becomes yet another reason I prefer the DA2 approach.

[Realmzmaster]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...

DAO's crafting system was not entirely optional. The side quest Exotic Methods requires a Herbalism: Rank of 4 to make the Dwarven Regicide Antidote. The side quest fortunately is optional and can be declined, but the gamer will not know the requirements until it is accepted. The character does not get the recipe until then.

Once accepted it would have to remain an uncompleted quest (unless one of the characters has a herbalism rank of 4), because there is no way to buy the antidote.

But it's an optional quest.  So not only do you not have to take it, but you also don't have to complete it even if you do take it.

So crafting remains optional.  Even if you accept the quest, you're still never forced to do any crafting.

I stated in the post it was optional and did not have to be completed, but for a completionist (which I happen to be. If I start a warden or Hawke I must finish all the available quests) it is annoying.

[Realmzmaster]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...

You know that I am a big proponent of modeling all of that in the inventory system and having weight restrictions. I was simply stating it in the terms of the crafting system.

Sure, but here DA2's crafting exceeds DAO's only based on a standard that neither game even attempts to meet elsewhere in the game.  Neither game models those extra details, so holding that DA2's crafting is superior because it avoids the need to model them (which it wouldn't have done, given that it doesn't model the others) seems absurd.

I prefer a system that lends itself to those details over a system that doesn't, even if neither system actually as them.

I never held DA2's crafting as superior. I stated that DA2 system simply farms out the work to other craft people. The difference between the two systems in my opinion is negligible. A difference that makes no  difference is no difference in my opinion others see it as having a difference. We will agree to disagree.

Kingdom of Amalur crafting system was better. 38 Studios got around carrying crafting equipment by using crafting stations.in various locations.

Now if you told me the warden and company camped or stopped to rest somewhere and created the potions I would find that more believable. I would also expect the camp to be attacked while in the field and the craft making would be interrupted. I would also expect the more potent items to take longer to make and the attack chance grows larger.

DA2 system has no chance of interruption. Hawke specifies what is needed. I find the instant completion of the task to be annoying. It would have been better as I stated in an ealier post that Hawke send a messanger to the crafts person or have the person call on Hawke. Hawke would have to wait for the crafted items.

[Aaleel]

Realmzmaster wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...

DAO's crafting system was not entirely optional. The side quest Exotic Methods requires a Herbalism: Rank of 4 to make the Dwarven Regicide Antidote. The side quest fortunately is optional and can be declined, but the gamer will not know the requirements until it is accepted. The character does not get the recipe until then.

Once accepted it would have to remain an uncompleted quest (unless one of the characters has a herbalism rank of 4), because there is no way to buy the antidote.

But it's an optional quest.  So not only do you not have to take it, but you also don't have to complete it even if you do take it.

So crafting remains optional.  Even if you accept the quest, you're still never forced to do any crafting.

I stated in the post it was optional and did not have to be completed, but for a completionist (which I happen to be. If I start a warden or Hawke I must finish all the available quests) it is annoying.

Then the entire game must have annoyed you because there are a plethora of quests and other things in the game that require you to put points into skills on the Warden or a companion, Lockpicking, stealing, Survival, Traps just to name a few. 

But honestly this is how it should be.  There should be some benefit to putting points and time into a skill as long as it doesn't affect the main storyline.  Items or weapons that can only be acquired through a skill, skills needed to complete certain quests, etc.

[Anomaly-]

Sir JK wrote...
But you'd think that so would the fact that you're clearly not lugging around 50-100 kg of laboratory equipment . Not even a mortar and pestle. But I assure you that I'll concede this point if laboratory equipment start to take inventory space (yes, I know they did in Morrowind).

As I said, I would be willing to sacrifice inventory space to be able to craft in the field. I'd even be willing to limit crafting to certain crafting stations, as long as our keep wasn't the only one.

I don't deny the value in the "do I make this or that with what I have", but generally speaking it is not an issue I've... well... -ever- come across. In any game.

Well that's the thing. Crafting should be rewarding but optional. You should never be forced to craft anything.

Sir JK wrote...
Well... Hawke isn't a craftsman. It's really that simple. Lady Elegant has spent the majority of her life to learn how to brew potions and she's a master at it. Hawke has spent the equalient amount of time to learn how to fight and as such hasn't learned what is needed to brew a good potion/mix a poison/carve a lyrium rune.

It's actually more difficult to explain why Hawke would be able to do that than otherwise. Crafting won't ever be a thing for the sake of realism. But it might be a thing for the sake of gameplay, which in a game is the important thing.

Why can we assume the protagonist has a background in fighting, but not crafting? Granted, Hawke was more of a pre-defined character, but I seem to recall hearing we'll have more freedom in our background with DA:I.

Wulfram wrote...
I need to try out the system to see that it's rubbish, and also that it's superfluous to gameplay rather than a necessary element, which wastes my time and detracts from that crucial first game.

Of course it's superfluous, at least in the sense that it isn't a requirement. As it should be. By that logic, romances, side quests and having more than 1 class and specialization are also superfluous. The whole purpose of a crafting system is to give you a roleplaying and gameplay option. That's exactly what DA:O's crafting does.

And the presence of a broken mechanic that you need to ignore adds a nagging sense of artificiality to the challenge of gameplay

Broken how?

Whereas DA2's crafting had no real negatives for the game, at least with the Black Emporium to take the sting out of missing a crucial ingredient.

DA2's crafting added nothing new to the game in terms of roleplaying, or gameplay, especially with the Black Emporium. It could be entirely replaced by a shop. It was the very definition of superfluous in every way.

Realmzmaster wrote...
DAO's crafting system was not entirely optional. The side quest Exotic Methods requires a Herbalism: Rank of 4 to make the Dwarven Regicide Antidote. The side quest fortunately is optional and can be declined, but the gamer will not know the requirements until it is accepted. The character does not get the recipe until then.

Once accepted it would have to remain an uncompleted quest (unless one of the characters has a herbalism rank of 4), because there is no way to buy the antidote.

Like Sylvius said, since it's a side quest then it's still totally optional. Besides, weren't people saying they wanted class/specialization specific quests?

[The Baconer]

I would enjoy an overhauled system that doesn't resemble either of the previous games' methods.

Remember rune crafting in DA:A? That was great.

[Aaleel]

My biggest problem with DA2 system was that it offered no benefit to the player at all that made it worthwhile to do.

There was no difference between using it or going to the Black Emporium aside from saving the minute it took to go to the map, pick the location and run down the hall, you weren't even saving money. Here you are finding all the materials, allowing the merchants to sell better more expensive goods (because obviously you're not their only customer) and you still have to pay for the goods with no visible discount.

Skyrim for instance, I can craft better weapons then anything a merchant is selling if I study the craft long enough. I can take materials I found and actually make something in lieu of going to a merchant.

There should be some benefit to using the system/skill or it's worthless. In the case of DA2's crafting system they could have had nothing but merchants and no kind of system and there would have been absolutely no difference.

Modifié par Aaleel, 09 février 2014 - 07:04 .

[CybAnt1]

if crafting is that easy to learn why would anyone be able to make a living out of it. 

It's not that easy. WoW has 7 production professions, and in general nobody knows more than 1. (They could know 2, but only at the cost of knowing how to gather mats themselves.)

There is definitely the assumption that you could only be good at 1. 

Secondly, adventuring is not a full-time profession. It's kind of unsteady work. Temporary labor. What do you do when there isn't a Blight or a Horde/Alliance invasion around? All adventurers have downtime. 

I saw Conan sharpening his sword sometimes when he wasn't using it. It makes sense in a fantasy world for a warrior to learn some blacksmithing. Of course, in the MMO world, you can only get better from learning from dedicated masters who are better than you, and some recipes (as well as materials) are really hard to find. 

[CybAnt1]

The Baconer wrote...

I would enjoy an overhauled system that doesn't resemble either of the previous games' methods.

Remember rune crafting in DA:A? That was great.

It was slightly bugged still, but at least improved over the base game.

Anyway, you may get your wish; developer statements to date certainly lead me to believe crafting in this game will be stronghold-focused. On the other hand, customizability may be tuned up a notch, which means you may have even greater control over the appearance of stuff you craft. 

[The Baconer]

CybAnt1 wrote...

It was slightly bugged still, but at least improved over the base game.

No, it was little more than a tedious money-sink that didn't even make sense in practice. It was like distillation but with ****ing rocks. How do you turn 32 (or 64 if you count the blank runestones) rocks and coalesce them into a single master-rock?

[CybAnt1]

Ahh yes, you're right, that crap. Yes, they didn't fix that until DA2, you're right.

Yes, the system of combining x runes of tier 1 to makes 1 rune of tier 2, x runes of tier 2 to make tier 3 .... yah, that WAS crap. I was glad to see it go.

[Spectre slayer]

CybAnt1 wrote...

The Baconer wrote...

I would enjoy an overhauled system that doesn't resemble either of the previous games' methods.

Remember rune crafting in DA:A? That was great.

It was slightly bugged still, but at least improved over the base game.

Anyway, you may get your wish; developer statements to date certainly lead me to believe crafting in this game will be stronghold-focused. On the other hand, customizability may be tuned up a notch, which means you may have even greater control over the appearance of stuff you craft. 

The crafting is indeed limited to our strongholds, we have people to do our crafting, enchanting, potions, etc, the system's improve through use, the more you use it the better they get.

It's not may, it is turned up a notch and beyond what we've seen before and we have control over almost everything for us and our companions. I gave a pretty detailed rundown on the first page about the crafting system in DAI which is only the stuff they were actually allowed to tell us, they mentioned experimentation, crafting of our main base amoung other things.

They added an option to see everything as we're crafting and modifying our equipment and can see how our companions look wearing it, we can see all the details, examine them and see which one's better.


Edit 

We can still gather ingredients but our agents will also unlock some by doing specific thing's, anyway not sure why some people thought that we couldn't hunt for ingredients and gather them ourselves since they showed it during the demo.

Modifié par Spectre slayer, 10 février 2014 - 01:42 .

[Sir JK]

Anomaly- wrote...

As I said, I would be willing to sacrifice inventory space to be able to craft in the field. I'd even be willing to limit crafting to certain crafting stations, as long as our keep wasn't the only one.

Fair enough. I was mostly just countering the argument about supply lines, not so much stating an opinion. Basically a: either we should be carrying around/having to stop by crafting stations or supply lines themselves shouldn't be a problem.

As I've mentioned, this is not where my problem lies.

Well that's the thing. Crafting should be rewarding but optional. You should never be forced to craft anything.

That was never my problem (though I agree with the sentiment). It was that I've never had so little resources I couldn't make everything I wanted and I'm virtually always fully stocked up on everything I suspect I'll need before I head somewhere.

Why can we assume the protagonist has a background in fighting, but not crafting? Granted, Hawke was more of a pre-defined character, but I seem to recall hearing we'll have more freedom in our background with DA:I.

Because they fight? Learning skilled fighting is akin to be a professional athlete. Not only do you need considerable training to learn to fight reflexively (anything less is too slow), need to know a large numbers of disarms, parries, techniques, manouvers, dodges and such by rote but you also need to basically keep that level of fitness up.

It's extremely time consuming.

A background as a craftsman would essentially mean you don't fight. As in at all. Knowing which end goes into the enemy is simply not enough. You'd be killed in a single moved by the first person with any semblance of experience.

Aaleel wrote...

My biggest problem with DA2 system was that it offered no benefit to the player at all that made it worthwhile to do.

There
was no difference between using it or going to the Black Emporium aside
from saving the minute it took to go to the map, pick the location and
run down the hall, you weren't even saving money. Here you are finding
all the materials, allowing the merchants to sell better more expensive
goods (because obviously you're not their only customer) and you still
have to pay for the goods with no visible discount.

Skyrim for
instance, I can craft better weapons then anything a merchant is selling
if I study the craft long enough. I can take materials I found and
actually make something in lieu of going to a merchant.

There
should be some benefit to using the system/skill or it's worthless. In
the case of DA2's crafting system they could have had nothing but
merchants and no kind of system and there would have been absolutely no
difference.

I can agree with this sentiment.

CybAnt1 wrote...
It's not that
easy. WoW has 7 production professions, and in general nobody knows
more than 1. (They could know 2, but only at the cost of knowing how to
gather mats themselves.)

There is definitely the assumption that you could only be good at 1. 

Secondly,
adventuring is not a full-time profession. It's kind of unsteady work.
Temporary labor. What do you do when there isn't a Blight or a
Horde/Alliance invasion around? All adventurers have downtime. 

I saw Conan sharpening his sword sometimes when he wasn't using it. It makes sense in a fantasy world for a warrior to learn some
blacksmithing. Of course, in the MMO world, you can only get better
from learning from dedicated masters who are better than you, and some
recipes (as well as materials) are really hard to find.

I know, I played wow. My point was that the same amount of time that's needed to learn a craft to mastery is the same amount of time that it takes to learn to fight properly. Perhaps you've heard of the 10 000-hour theory? That's basically the time you need to dedicate (ie. years).

And as I mentioned above, fighting requires you to be in quite good fitness. It's basically the mediveal equalient of being a professional athlete. It means practising often. Every week. For hours.

Trying to learn both at the same time means you're probably going to be a bad crafter and a dead fighter

But as I said. If the system is good and entertaining enough, that trumps believeability. A fun system is more important than a realistic one.

[Inprea]

I've had to think about this for a little bit. Typically I like it when my character can make powerful weapons, armor and items representing their knowledge. I also tend to support players having a variety of skills to choose from. Yet when I think about it in terms of a P&P style rpg I have to ask myself. Would I rather put experience points into crafting or would I rather buy a wealth attribute. I typically lean towards wealth as you need money to buy the materials and equipment needed to make the best gear to begin with. Then often by the time you've acquired a high enough wealth attribute you've found someone you can just pay to do the work for you.

I believe it's more realistic that the person who sets down and makes armor for a living would be far better at smithing then my character who has to spend time developing their combat ability, traveling, politicing and who knows what else. Provided the blacksmith has enough work to keep himself busy.

Now I do believe we should be able to help the blacksmith along either by locating rare and exceptional materials, documents showing more advanced techniques and just giving him enough work to keep him practicing. I could however understand the Inquisitor knowing enough about wood and metal working to make infield repairs.

I am also excited by the idea that we'll be able to influence the look of our armor. I doubt it'll compare to the clothing choices like in Saints Row 2 through 4 but when I consider the time I spent working on my characters look and how pleased I was when I finally had her looking the way I wanted I realize how much I enjoy this feature. Kind of funny how much playing dress up with barbie dolls can be when they're on a screen and have so many options.

It even makes me think of looking through mods of Skyrim. I downloaded one mod for the heavy armor hood, one for the daedric chest piece and I think another for a cape before I had my dragonborn looking how I wanted.

[Anomaly-]

Sir JK wrote...
That was never my problem (though I agree with the sentiment). It was that I've never had so little resources I couldn't make everything I wanted and I'm virtually always fully stocked up on everything I suspect I'll need before I head somewhere.

As I said before, that's an implementation issue. Make those resources more scarce and the issue goes away.

Because they fight?

So we can assume they have a background in fighting, because they fight. Could we not then assume they have a background in crafting, because they craft?

Learning skilled fighting is akin to be a professional athlete. Not only do you need considerable training to learn to fight reflexively (anything less is too slow), need to know a large numbers of disarms, parries, techniques, manouvers, dodges and such by rote but you also need to basically keep that level of fitness up.

It's extremely time consuming.

Yes, I have an extensive background in martial arts and I understand all of that. Which is why I say that crafting skills should draw from the same pool as combat skills. Combat skills are the abstraction used to represent time spent training in combat after all, right? So time spent honing crafting skills is time not spent honing combat skills. I don't see the problem.

A background as a craftsman would essentially mean you don't fight. As in at all. Knowing which end goes into the enemy is simply not enough. You'd be killed in a single moved by the first person with any semblance of experience.

Anyone can fight. No, they would not have as many combat related skills as others, but being a skilled craftsman would mean they are most likely equipped with better gear and have things like potions and traps at their disposal, which should help to close that gap.

And as I mentioned above, fighting requires you to be in quite good fitness. It's basically the mediveal equalient of being a professional athlete. It means practising often. Every week. For hours.

Trying to learn both at the same time means you're probably going to be a bad crafter and a dead fighter

I'm not so certain of that. I manage to work a full time job programming at a desk, yet I still stay in pretty good shape. That's including commutes, house maintenance, meal preparation, and friend/family obligations that I would assume my protagonist doesn't have to deal with. I am sure they can spend the day practicing their craft, and still find enough time in their downtime to practice combat just enough to not die in 3 seconds. Like I said, the reduced time they spend training in combat is already represented by their lack of combat related skills.

But as I said. If the system is good and entertaining enough, that trumps believeability. A fun system is more important than a realistic one.

Yes, I can look past minor flaws in realism if it means having more varied gameplay options. But as I've shown, I don't think it's hard to believe, either.

Modifié par Anomaly-, 09 février 2014 - 09:48 .

[Dabrikishaw]

I didn't craft anything but Health Poultices and Lyruim Potions in Origins due to the finite materials of every other crafting items such as bombs. In Awakening I crafted Runes like there was no tomorrow and had a lot of fun mixing and matching Runes for weapons and armors. ][ crafting didn't reach it's full potential until Act III where you had access to top tier Rune designs and Poison formulas like Rune of Devastation and Fell Grenade. I know we are getting the same approach to crafting as ][ in Inquisition but I hope the potency of our crafts are at Awakening levels.

[Sir JK]

Anomaly:
Sure, there are ways around it. As you suggest. They'll bring their own slew of problems, but it can be worked around. They're not that major anyways. Much like how me finding the resources not at all lacking is mostly a problem with implementation and not one that seriously ruins the idea for me.

Instead, what really bothers me is how detached and soulless the entire core system is. It's mostly a thing you do strictly in the UI. I used the analogy of arithmethics before, and this is my chief issue. It's mostly just making sure you happen to have the ingredients in the same inventory and pressing a button. There's often elements in exploration involved and sometimes quests. But the latter is often just obscured fetch-quests and the former is handled very variedly.

I get that working to acquire something special can be rewarding. I agree to an extent. But I find the process so utterly dull and uninteresting.
Which is interesting since games that wok with supply-lines or setting up industries often attract me. I like working with resources, setting up processes and such. But in RPGs I find I highly dislike the system.  I love setting up perfect economies in strategy games and the fiddling with having the right stuff and the right time in adventure games. But in RPGs I make what I need and find myself underwhelmed by it.

Some RPGs use the system better. Games where crafting skills can be used in dialogue make them slightly more interesting to me, of particular note is Obsidian's various games here. Skyrim ties it's crafting to it's exploration beautifully. Games in which you can experiment and test your way forward have also made me slightly more interested.
All of those still carry the chief problem of the mechanics themselves being uninteresting. But not as bad as I find the system in general.

I suppose in a way it's tied to my general desire to see things besides combat actually being interactable and require player input. I'm tired of non-combat being so abstracted to the point that it's more or less decided in the character creation/level up system whether you'll succeed at something or not.

In a sense... I want crafting to be more than a button on a ui screen. Until I can get that, I prefer the DA2 approach. Probably because it does not even pretend it's crafting.

Modifié par Sir JK, 09 février 2014 - 10:23 .