49 réponses à ce sujet

[soapstone]

or will he always leave you?

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

He will always leave you. The closest you can get to Alistair staying is if you persuade him to rule alongside Anora, and he'll still leave the party even if he doesn't leave the country.

[sylvanaerie]

And he hates your guts for sparing his enemy and forcing him to be king on top of that, married to the daughter of the man he hates.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Though he seems mostly over it by Awakening.

[sylvanaerie]

Wishful thinking, River, though stranger things have happened.  Remember, however, Awakenings is full of misplaced plot flags and bugs. Though 6 months is a long time to hold a grudge, I suspect even if he 'got over it' and took to the business of living his life, and being king and what not, things will never be right with the warden again.

He certainly isn't happy 7 years later speaking with Hawke since DA2 does recognize that ending (if Loghain is alive).  If Loghain is dead, things may not be as bad, but the friendship won't be right again.

Ever.

Modifié par sylvanaerie, 06 février 2014 - 07:52 .

[Mike3207]

Alistair makes the comment of "Sadly, Loghain still lives" when asked about him in DA2 in the King cameo. I still think he's not going to get completely over it as long as Loghain is alive.

[Jaison1986]

Like the others said. I honestly don't care much how he feels about it. He blames Loghain for everything, even if people were to say at his face that Loghain saved half of the army by pulling out and that it was Cailan fault, he still wouldn't care and still would call for Loghain execution. That's why I usually make Alistair king and recruit Loghain. This situation is much bigger then his hate.

[sylvanaerie]

Well, since you finish the game with the same outcome each time (dragon dead, blight ended) I feel no need to spare Loghain. Since he is no longer a general and just following the warden's lead like everyone else, all you are doing when you recruit Loghain is swap is trading a young, vital man with a potential for years of darkspawn fighting for an old has been with only a few years before the taint overwhelms him who might just as easily stab you in the back, since that's what he's spent the previous year doing.

So, I usually kill Loghain, Alistair's feelings notwithstanding, though they usually happen to coincide with my own.

Modifié par sylvanaerie, 08 février 2014 - 11:40 .

[wiccame]

Loghain deserted!...he didn't pull out to save the army, it was a pre meditated decision (easily spotted at the war council). He couldn't put aside his hatred for Orlais long enough to end the blight so he left Cailan to die, and the majority of grey wardens, knowing that they were the best hope to end it, and spent the year trying to kill the last 2 wardens that escaped, and steal the throne.
He deserved nothing less than to be executed in shame.

[mousestalker]

Loghain didn't desert! He totally had a teeth cleaning appointment that he forgot about until just then. He had to take his soldiers with them so they all could get the group discount.

Or something like that... 

Modifié par mousestalker, 09 février 2014 - 02:35 .

[Jaison1986]

wiccame wrote...

Loghain deserted!...he didn't pull out to save the army, it was a pre meditated decision (easily spotted at the war council). He couldn't put aside his hatred for Orlais long enough to end the blight so he left Cailan to die, and the majority of grey wardens, knowing that they were the best hope to end it, and spent the year trying to kill the last 2 wardens that escaped, and steal the throne.
He deserved nothing less than to be executed in shame.

In that mindset, Alistair also deserves to be executed at the landsmeet. Though his execution happens for all the wrong reasons. He respect his duties as an warden more then anything else, and yet he bails out refusing to do what his warden duties demanded from him. Jory tried to desert. See what happened to him.

People can blame Loghain for what happened after Ostagar as much as they want. But I don't like when they get jugmental on him about the battle. After all, the whole idea came from Cailan, and scouts contantly told them that the horde was overwhelming them in number, and yet Cailan insisted on an suicidal battle. Why should Loghain go out of his way to save an king that digged his own grave? Should Loghain man sacrifice themselves just to make him look more loyal (and dead)?
 And as for the wardens. They also brought it on themselves. Their stupid secrecy made Loghain doubt their necessity, as no one knew exactly why they were needed to end the blight. Wich then had Loghain assume they would be expandable just like any other soldier.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

sylvanaerie wrote...

Wishful thinking, River, though stranger things have happened.  Remember, however, Awakenings is full of misplaced plot flags and bugs. Though 6 months is a long time to hold a grudge, I suspect even if he 'got over it' and took to the business of living his life, and being king and what not, things will never be right with the warden again.

He certainly isn't happy 7 years later speaking with Hawke since DA2 does recognize that ending (if Loghain is alive).  If Loghain is dead, things may not be as bad, but the friendship won't be right again.

Ever.

He doesn't adknowledge Loghain's survival in the cameo in Awakening, and even notes that he'd quite willingly adventure with the Warden again instead of doing his job as the king. Though this might be one of those bugs you noted. (Or it might be intentional, since the mere fact that he's able to stay as King despite Loghain's survival indicates some degree of ability to look past it. And as you say, six months is a long time to stay actively seething with rage.)

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 12 février 2014 - 04:02 .

[wiccame]

Jaison1986 wrote...

wiccame wrote...

Loghain deserted!...he didn't pull out to save the army, it was a pre meditated decision (easily spotted at the war council). He couldn't put aside his hatred for Orlais long enough to end the blight so he left Cailan to die, and the majority of grey wardens, knowing that they were the best hope to end it, and spent the year trying to kill the last 2 wardens that escaped, and steal the throne.
He deserved nothing less than to be executed in shame.

In that mindset, Alistair also deserves to be executed at the landsmeet. Though his execution happens for all the wrong reasons. He respect his duties as an warden more then anything else, and yet he bails out refusing to do what his warden duties demanded from him. Jory tried to desert. See what happened to him.

People can blame Loghain for what happened after Ostagar as much as they want. But I don't like when they get jugmental on him about the battle. After all, the whole idea came from Cailan, and scouts contantly told them that the horde was overwhelming them in number, and yet Cailan insisted on an suicidal battle. Why should Loghain go out of his way to save an king that digged his own grave? Should Loghain man sacrifice themselves just to make him look more loyal (and dead)?
 And as for the wardens. They also brought it on themselves. Their stupid secrecy made Loghain doubt their necessity, as no one knew exactly why they were needed to end the blight. Wich then had Loghain assume they would be expandable just like any other soldier.

Loghain deserted, desertion is punishable by death, as seen by the prisoner in Ostagar.  Just because of his status that shouldn't put him outside the law.
He laid out the strategy for the battle, it all hinged on his plan. He set it up knowing that he was not going to play his part. Thus setting Cailan and the wardens up for slaughter. Leaving the king to die, is that not also treason?

Yes you could say Alistair acted a bit out of line at the landsmeet but you could also say that in some cases he was made king, so technically he was no longer a warden any way.
Also as you said it, the wardens were too secretive, had Alistair known of the warden who kills the archedemon also dies clause, maybe he would be a bit more reasonable about recruiting him.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

wiccame wrote...

Jaison1986 wrote...

In that mindset, Alistair also deserves to be executed at the landsmeet. Though his execution happens for all the wrong reasons. He respect his duties as an warden more then anything else, and yet he bails out refusing to do what his warden duties demanded from him. Jory tried to desert. See what happened to him.

People can blame Loghain for what happened after Ostagar as much as they want. But I don't like when they get jugmental on him about the battle. After all, the whole idea came from Cailan, and scouts contantly told them that the horde was overwhelming them in number, and yet Cailan insisted on an suicidal battle. Why should Loghain go out of his way to save an king that digged his own grave? Should Loghain man sacrifice themselves just to make him look more loyal (and dead)?
 And as for the wardens. They also brought it on themselves. Their stupid secrecy made Loghain doubt their necessity, as no one knew exactly why they were needed to end the blight. Wich then had Loghain assume they would be expandable just like any other soldier.

Loghain deserted, desertion is punishable by death, as seen by the prisoner in Ostagar.  Just because of his status that shouldn't put him outside the law.

Not the argument we're making.

He laid out the strategy for the battle, it all hinged on his plan. He set it up knowing that he was not going to play his part. Thus setting Cailan and the wardens up for slaughter. Leaving the king to die, is that not also treason?

Legally, yes. On the other hand, if you start from the premise of Cailan's death being inevitable regardless of what Loghain did, the only logical conclusion is that Loghain acted correctly. (I've gone off trying to persuade people that that's actually the case. Nobody ever listens.)

Yes you could say Alistair acted a bit out of line at the landsmeet but you could also say that in some cases he was made king, so technically he was no longer a warden any way.

And in those cases where he wasn't?

Also as you said it, the wardens were too secretive, had Alistair known of the warden who kills the archedemon also dies clause, maybe he would be a bit more reasonable about recruiting him.

I tend to doubt that. He's only slightly less ticked off in the epilogue if Loghain did the US.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 10 février 2014 - 08:04 .

[Jaison1986]

wiccame wrote...

Jaison1986 wrote...

wiccame wrote...

Loghain deserted!...he didn't pull out to save the army, it was a pre meditated decision (easily spotted at the war council). He couldn't put aside his hatred for Orlais long enough to end the blight so he left Cailan to die, and the majority of grey wardens, knowing that they were the best hope to end it, and spent the year trying to kill the last 2 wardens that escaped, and steal the throne.
He deserved nothing less than to be executed in shame.

In that mindset, Alistair also deserves to be executed at the landsmeet. Though his execution happens for all the wrong reasons. He respect his duties as an warden more then anything else, and yet he bails out refusing to do what his warden duties demanded from him. Jory tried to desert. See what happened to him.

People can blame Loghain for what happened after Ostagar as much as they want. But I don't like when they get jugmental on him about the battle. After all, the whole idea came from Cailan, and scouts contantly told them that the horde was overwhelming them in number, and yet Cailan insisted on an suicidal battle. Why should Loghain go out of his way to save an king that digged his own grave? Should Loghain man sacrifice themselves just to make him look more loyal (and dead)?
 And as for the wardens. They also brought it on themselves. Their stupid secrecy made Loghain doubt their necessity, as no one knew exactly why they were needed to end the blight. Wich then had Loghain assume they would be expandable just like any other soldier.

Loghain deserted, desertion is punishable by death, as seen by the prisoner in Ostagar.  Just because of his status that shouldn't put him outside the law.
He laid out the strategy for the battle, it all hinged on his plan. He set it up knowing that he was not going to play his part. Thus setting Cailan and the wardens up for slaughter. Leaving the king to die, is that not also treason?

Yes you could say Alistair acted a bit out of line at the landsmeet but you could also say that in some cases he was made king, so technically he was no longer a warden any way.
Also as you said it, the wardens were too secretive, had Alistair known of the warden who kills the archedemon also dies clause, maybe he would be a bit more reasonable about recruiting him.

Only if the king is worth saving, wich Cailan wasn't. Many people knew that Cailan was only king by blood, and the one truly pulling the strings and keeping Ferelden in check was Anora.
What Loghain did might be considered treason, but I also consider it strategical retreat. He might have done it for the wrong reasons, but I still consider it the right call, or do you think that he should have just charged blindly changing nothing in the outcome of the battle? Why should Loghain be loyal to someone that did nothing to earn it?

[Mike3207]

If Loghain had not shown up at the Battle, or showed up and not told anyone he was leaving, a charge of desertion might be warranted. He showed up at the battlefield, told all the troops he was ordering retreat. A military court(if Ferelden has them) might bring up he didn't tell the king forces he was retreating, but Loghain's defense would be it wouldn't make a difference. I think a charge of desertion would be laughed at by anyone it was raised with.

[wiccame]

It really can't be called a strategic retreat if he had no intentions of going in at all in the first place. He could have easily flat out refused to send his men in to battle, thus forcing Cailan to abandon the attack in the first place. If Cailan still insisted on going in at that point without Loghain's support then yeah he would have been an idiot.
Only if the king is worth saving?! Loghain was Cailan's general, it was his duty to follow his king into battle and protect him whether Cailan should have been there or not. The point is, it was his plan and he did not follow it...on purpose. It was a pre meditated decision, with the end result of Cailan dying and him taking the throne...for his own selfish reasons.

[Jaison1986]

Yes, just like every soldier that die in war have the duty of sacrificing themselves for leaders they never met and causes they don't understand. Loghain duty is to do what is best for Ferelden, not what an naive dimwit wants. I think you are putting too much weight on titles and "duty", while forgetting about nessecities and tough calls. My question still stands. Do you think Loghain should really have charged in even tought he and his man were to die pointlessly?

[wiccame]

If he were to have been in battle already and seen they were losing, yes he would have every cause to retreat.
The point I am making however is, that his whole reasoning for abandoning Cailan was not for the good of Ferelden, it was for the good of him.
He did not want the Orlesians in so he was going to stop them and the way he chose to do that was to let Cailan die so he couldn't ally with them. It didn't have anything to do with losing the battle.
I understand his whole reasoning for hating the Orlesians but he put that hatred first instead of what was good for the country.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Since the premise of her logic is that Loghain didn't so much improvise after the plan went wrong as planned for it to go wrong with the intent of Cailan dying, maybe you should try arguing against that. (As I said, I've gotten tired of this debate.)

[metatheurgist]

Not to mention Loghain planned the defense, which included having the King out in front in open ground and a fort with no walls or siege engines in defensive positions. Note that the darkspawn did a better job when you Returned to Ostagar. Also Howe moved against the Couslands waaaaaay in advance of the fall of Ostagar, that snivelling coward wouldn't have done anything without his master's permission, and the loss of of Highever's forces conveniently further weakened the defense of Ostagar. Incompetence or regicide?

Modifié par metatheurgist, 11 février 2014 - 02:31 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

You are aware that Loghain was decidedly against having Cailan fight in that position? Cailan makes pretty clear Loghain was bugging him not to do so. (All I have for the Couslands is Word of Gaider, I suppose, and I'll note that's against you as far as Ostagar goes too.)

[Lavaeolus]

@above: It doesn't really make much sense for Loghain to be involved in the Cousland massacre. The only real reason would be that they're loyal to the king, and so if he leaves the king at Ostagar they threaten to start a fuss -- but Loghain at this point is still trying to convince Cailan to back down, as he often has done before.

Imagine, Cailan does back down, and then going home "Man, killed all the Couslands for no reason, awkwaaaard".

[wiccame]

He did object to Cailan being in the battle but he did use it to his advantage.
He waited until the very moment the signal went up then left. Even Cauthrien questioned him on it, and the smug look on his face when they left.
I think he did have something to do with the Couslands murders, without Bryce and Eamon to oppose him, he would be able to take the throne easier because there would be no one left with the power to oppose him.

[Lavaeolus]

Here are some of Gaider's comments.

Some choice quotes concerning Howe and Cailan:

In my mind, Loghain did not go to Ostagar expecting to walk away from the battle. It was clear, however, that he and Cailan were already having profound disagreements -- mainly centering on Cailan's overtures to Orlais. Loghain was obviously moving to confront Cailan in some way, undercutting his access to allies and so forth. But did Loghain plan on killing Cailan? No, I don't think that. I think he was doing what Loghain does, and trying to ensure that when that moment of confrontation with Cailan came the battle was already won.

The darkspawn forces were getting stronger with each engagement. Loghain knew that, and knew that it wasn't going to keep being so easy. I would say that he knew what might happen the minute Cailan made his strategy clear: rely on the Grey Wardens to win the day. In my mind, Loghain still wasn't certain that he would walk away -- and if he thought that riding into the valley could have won the battle, he probably would have done so. Whether his belief that this couldn't happen was the truth or just his twisted perception of it is something you can decide for yourself. Certainly the darkspawn horde at the last battle was far bigger than anyone had anticipated.

There is also the matter of his association with Arl Howe, someone Loghain evidences great distaste for -- but politics makes for strange bedfellows, as they say. In my mind, Loghain always thought that Howe was an ally completely under his control and was probably never able to admit even to himself how much Howe was able to manipulate him. Howe acted on a great number of things without Loghain's involvement or approval, but by then the two were already in bed together -- Loghain was committed, as it were, and after Ostagar doubly so. For all his faults, Loghain is not a man to waver once a decision is made -- good or bad. The only reason he gives up, in the end, is because he sees that there is someone else beside himself who can save Ferelden, someone who hasn't made the mistakes he has. The burden does not rest entirely on his shoulders -- which, yes, is how he feels.

Gaider makes it pretty clear that his opinions on this aren't definitive, and gives you some "death of the author" interpretations; but he is the lead writer, so certainly knowing his view will help you understand how Loghain was written.

You might want to read more of his quotes there, if you want to hear some more. Knowing all of it does help deepen Loghain a bit, I think. It's a shame all the dialogue concerning him mostly comes *after* you've chopped off his head, and even then if you spared him you'll probably rush off to the grand finale rather than stop to listen to party banter and so on. (Hold on, Blight, gotta go dialogue-rush on this new companion I got!)

Modifié par Mr Maniac, 11 février 2014 - 02:06 .