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[wiccame]

You notice also in that thread Gaider mentions either Loghain or Uldred wanted control of the tower to make sure it wasn't lit. So when Loghain pulled out he could blame it on the signal not being lit. If it come to that, which means he still planned for it.
Also he didn't want Cailan to have Eamon's support when a confrontation was had, so he had Eamon poisoned. Planned.
It might not have gone exactly how he expected it but used the situation to his advantage.

I don't doubt Loghain thought he was doing it all for the right reasons but it was still wrong.

Modifié par wiccame, 11 février 2014 - 03:03 .

[Lavaeolus]

He planned for the potential of doing it, if he felt his hand was forced.

wiccame wrote...

It really can't be called a strategic retreat if he had no intentions of going in at all in the first place.

There was intent to go in. But only if Loghain thought it would be tactically beneficial -- he is the general after all. Depending on your interpretation, Cailan might've been beyond saving even if Loghain kept the army there, the darkspawn might've won, and we'd have lost a whole lot of soldiers useful for fighting later on in battles we could potentially win.

Not going to say Loghain is a perfect saint, nor that he should definitely be spared -- that's another issue even outside of Loghain's morality, considering concepts like justice, payback, mercy, and whether you'd kill a neutralised threat. But it wasn't like he deliberately set out to kill Cailan -- which was an intention he never had. Face Cailain, yes, maybe try and make him into a better ruler perhaps, or something else.

Loghain doesn't want power, fame, or other personal benefits. If he did, there were far better ways of getting it. Regardless of what you think of him, his intentions were always for the better of Ferelden -- even if he could be blinded by hate, paranoia, etc.

Modifié par Mr Maniac, 11 février 2014 - 04:46 .

[Jaison1986]

Wrong is so subjective. The wardens themselves make many things most people would find wrong. Allowing blood magic, recruit criminals, trick people into recruitment, etc, etc. That doesn't stop people from thinking them as heroes. I just find it too simple to say "Loghain was wrong, he should have charged in regardless if it worked or not". For Loghain, instead of wrong, I think the term "doing questionable things for the greater good" is better. And ironically, that's the reason I find Loghain to fit perfectly in the Wardens. Even if he doesn't realize it, he is a lot like them.

[Lavaeolus]

@above: Reason they call them the Grey Wardens, eh?

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

wiccame wrote...

He did object to Cailan being in the battle but he did use it to his advantage.
He waited until the very moment the signal went up then left. Even Cauthrien questioned him on it, and the smug look on his face when they left.
I think he did have something to do with the Couslands murders, without Bryce and Eamon to oppose him, he would be able to take the throne easier because there would be no one left with the power to oppose him.

Even without Word Of Gaider you can't make both of those arguments. Either Loghain objected to Cailan being on the battlefield, which means he wanted him alive, or he gave Howe permission to kill the Couslands, which is productive for eliminating powerful competition for the throne (which only matters if Cailan is dead) and completely idiotic otherwise. Don't forget that the Couslands die before Cailan does.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 11 février 2014 - 06:00 .

[wiccame]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

wiccame wrote...

He did object to Cailan being in the battle but he did use it to his advantage.
He waited until the very moment the signal went up then left. Even Cauthrien questioned him on it, and the smug look on his face when they left.
I think he did have something to do with the Couslands murders, without Bryce and Eamon to oppose him, he would be able to take the throne easier because there would be no one left with the power to oppose him.

Even without Word Of Gaider you can't make both of those arguments. Either Loghain objected to Cailan being on the battlefield, which means he wanted him alive, or he gave Howe permission to kill the Couslands, which is productive for eliminating powerful competition for the throne (which only matters if Cailan is dead) and completely idiotic otherwise. Don't forget that the Couslands die before Cailan does.

What would it look like if he didn't at least try to stop Cailan from fighting? I am not saying that it is so but, wouldn't it serve his purpose better if he played along with the loyal general act, insisting on Cailan staying behind, raising all those objections. That way ensuring no one could see what he was really up to. As opposed to saying sure go on in, I wont be following and you will die? He would have had to make it at least convincing.

Modifié par wiccame, 11 février 2014 - 07:22 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

wiccame wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

wiccame wrote...

He did object to Cailan being in the battle but he did use it to his advantage.
He waited until the very moment the signal went up then left. Even Cauthrien questioned him on it, and the smug look on his face when they left.
I think he did have something to do with the Couslands murders, without Bryce and Eamon to oppose him, he would be able to take the throne easier because there would be no one left with the power to oppose him.

Even without Word Of Gaider you can't make both of those arguments. Either Loghain objected to Cailan being on the battlefield, which means he wanted him alive, or he gave Howe permission to kill the Couslands, which is productive for eliminating powerful competition for the throne (which only matters if Cailan is dead) and completely idiotic otherwise. Don't forget that the Couslands die before Cailan does.

What would it look like if he didn't at least try to stop Cailan from fighting? I am not saying that it is so but, wouldn't it serve his purpose better if he played along with the loyal general act, insisting on Cailan staying behind, raising all those objections. That way ensuring no one could see what he was really up to. As opposed to saying sure go on in, I wont be following and you will die? He would have had to make it at least convincing.

Yes, but the problem is that that plan raises the possibility of Cailan listening to him, which would screw the whole plan over. Nor does he really gain much by all that protesting, since most of his most strident opponents (ie Teagan and Eamon) weren't there to see it. And were Loghain planning this, he couldn't even really be sure this was going to kill Cailan, since everyone who's actually fighting believes it optimal that Cailan survives this and will willingly die to see him off the battlefield if anything goes pear-shaped. It's not like there weren't survivors. This just isn't the sort of plan you want your intepretation to depend on an experienced general making. (I'll admit that Loghain is questionably competent even in my interpetation, but he's somewhat less so.)

wiccame wrote...

You notice also in that thread Gaider mentions either Loghain or Uldred wanted control of the tower to make sure it wasn't lit. So when Loghain pulled out he could blame it on the signal not being lit. If it come to that, which means he still planned for it.

Yes. You always plan for a retreat. The alternative might be to find yourself trapped. And the post makes pretty clear he wanted Cailan to join in this retreat should it become necessary.

And what was Loghain supposed to do once that failed? Just because the king is trapped in the losing battle doesn't make it winnable.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 12 février 2014 - 01:23 .

[metatheurgist]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...
And what was Loghain supposed to do once that failed? Just because the king is trapped in the losing battle doesn't make it winnable.

This is the ultimate betrayal. Even if he knew he couldn't win, a cavalry charge may have bought Duncan and the Wardens the break they needed to save Cailan. Instead the "Great General" who apparently didn't even have scouts in the field to assess enemy strength just walked away.

[Mike3207]

metatheurgist wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...
And what was Loghain supposed to do once that failed? Just because the king is trapped in the losing battle doesn't make it winnable.

This is the ultimate betrayal. Even if he knew he couldn't win, a cavalry charge may have bought Duncan and the Wardens the break they needed to save Cailan. Instead the "Great General" who apparently didn't even have scouts in the field to assess enemy strength just walked away.

He was facing the possible destruction of the entirety of the Ferelden forces. If the army is destroyed, there's really nothing stopping the darkspawn from destroying Ferelden. Over everything, a general has to save his army to live to fight another day.

[metatheurgist]

He didn't have to destroy the army, which he already adequately managed to eliminate with his completely inept "defense" plan. He just had to mount a rescue, he didn't even lift a finger. Instead he plunged Ferelden into chaos by letting the King die, then he compounded that by deliberately creating plots to destroy Redcliffe and The Circle. He has strange ideas of trying to save his country. Based on his totally illogical behaviour I completely expected him to be revealed as a Pride demon.

[Lavaeolus]

In Loghain's defense, what happened to the Circle was kind of out there. All he did was offer them some freedom for their support, an intention he was probably entirely willing to go through with. It's a pretty solid plan, since Loghain probably didn't have anything that would make him think Uldred would suddenly go mad and turn into a giant demon.

Oh, and Cailan's on the frontlines of a giant battle. I'm not sure how mounting a rescue would even work.

[wiccame]

*Yes, but the problem is that that plan raises the possibility of Cailan listening to him, which would screw the whole plan over. Nor does he really gain much by all that protesting, since most of his most strident opponents (ie Teagan and Eamon) weren't there to see it. And were Loghain planning this, he couldn't even really be sure this was going to kill Cailan, since everyone who's actually fighting believes it optimal that Cailan survives this and will willingly die to see him off the battlefield if anything goes pear-shaped. It's not like there weren't survivors. This just isn't the sort of plan you want your intepretation to depend on an experienced general making. (I'll admit that Loghain is questionably competent even in my interpetation, but he's somewhat less so.)*

He knew how obsessed Cailan was with battle and the Grey Wardens, he knew Cailan wouldn't easily be swayed.



*Yes. You always plan for a retreat. The alternative might be to find yourself trapped. And the post makes pretty clear he wanted Cailan to join in this retreat should it become necessary.*

 He schemed to make sure the tower was NOT lit, and considering the plan was for him to go in once the tower was lit, that would give him the excuse he needed for not going in. Which shows to me that he had no intention of going in.

Modifié par wiccame, 12 février 2014 - 10:04 .

[Jaison1986]

Mr Maniac wrote...

In Loghain's defense, what happened to the Circle was kind of out there. All he did was offer them some freedom for their support, an intention he was probably entirely willing to go through with. It's a pretty solid plan, since Loghain probably didn't have anything that would make him think Uldred would suddenly go mad and turn into a giant demon.

Oh, and Cailan's on the frontlines of a giant battle. I'm not sure how mounting a rescue would even work.

Exactly so. Like it or not, it was Wynne fault. She ratted Uldred out and that caused him to be pushed against the wall and become an abomination. If she never said anything, there is an good chance the tower would never be destroyed. Not saying Uldred going about unchecked was good either, but then again Loghain didn't knew he was an blood mage. 

And as for Redcliffe, Gaider confirmed Loghain didn't wanted to kill Eamon, the poison was supposed to keep him disabled untill the landsmeet was over. The whole undead situation was an result of an combination of Isolde and Connor stupidity.

And lastly, the whole rescue idea is impossible. When the the tower was lit, Calian and the other were already completely surrounded, trying to rescue him would cost the life of dozens if not hundreds of soldiers. And the lifes of hundreds of man are more valuable then the life of a single one, king or not.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

wiccame wrote...

*Yes, but the problem is that that plan raises the possibility of Cailan listening to him, which would screw the whole plan over. Nor does he really gain much by all that protesting, since most of his most strident opponents (ie Teagan and Eamon) weren't there to see it. And were Loghain planning this, he couldn't even really be sure this was going to kill Cailan, since everyone who's actually fighting believes it optimal that Cailan survives this and will willingly die to see him off the battlefield if anything goes pear-shaped. It's not like there weren't survivors. This just isn't the sort of plan you want your intepretation to depend on an experienced general making. (I'll admit that Loghain is questionably competent even in my interpetation, but he's somewhat less so.)*

He knew how obsessed Cailan was with battle and the Grey Wardens, he knew Cailan wouldn't easily be swayed.

Say that I thought that someone who both knew Cailan and wanted him dead would be able to count of him being this dumb. That doesn't really answer my point that almost everyone who's actually in the fighting would prioritize Cailan's life over their own, and that he might thereby have actually survived. There's way too many holes in this plan for it to be consistent with the picture Gaider is trying to paint of Loghain.

*Yes. You always plan for a retreat. The alternative might be to find yourself trapped. And the post makes pretty clear he wanted Cailan to join in this retreat should it become necessary.*

 He schemed to make sure the tower was NOT lit, and considering the plan was for him to go in once the tower was lit, that would give him the excuse he needed for not going in. Which shows to me that he had no intention of going in.

You have to discount large sections of the post before it supports that assessment.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 12 février 2014 - 07:49 .

[metatheurgist]

Jaison1986 wrote...
And the lifes of hundreds of man are more valuable then the life of a single one, king or not.

And look at what happened because they failed to save him. A megalomaniac took over, this resulted in the death of hundreds of soldiers at Highever, more soldiers in Redcliff and probably hundreds of Knights dead on a quest, dozens of Templars and Mages dead in the Circle, hundreds of elves dead and sold to slavery in Denerim. A Grey Warden had to waste precious time that could have used preparing for a blight fixing problems and rallying troops. If only they'd saved that one man.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

As has been previously pointed out, the deaths in Highever weren't directly Loghain's fault. And what Uldred did was his own improvisation when his connection with Loghain was exposed, and not Loghain's idea or in his interests. Everything else can fairly be attributed to Loghain, though.

But I'm still not sure how this supports your point. Cailan's death wasn't the direct reason any of this happened or the only way to prevent any of it, and you're failing to address our argument that said death was inevitable due to Cailan's own actions.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 12 février 2014 - 04:29 .

[sylvanaerie]

Well, DA is a very personal game, all open to the player's interpretation. My Warden doesn't have access to the words of Mr Gaider, nor the social forums here. I play my game how I want to, interpret events how I want to. Others have different opinions, and I'm okay with that.

Friend of mine just completed his first ever DAOrigins game last month. He had Alistair maxed approval and when the time came, recruited Loghain unawares (he told me NO spoilers under any circumstances), because his theme on his Cousland was "Everyone deserves a second chance".  He spared Zevran, freed Sten, tried to help Oghren sober up, romanced Leliana.  He didn't kill Flemeth, but he called me to confirm things would be okay if he didn't.  Felt it wasn't right to kill someone he owed a life debt to. When he called me up to lament his choices I pointed out Alistair had on more than one occasion stated his opinion of Loghain. AND that he had wanted no spoilers.

I supported his choice by telling him, there is no right or wrong here, only player choices. He went with the consequences of his choice, and Redeemer was his first ending. Because he didn't trust Morrigan either, and didn't want to cheat on Leliana, reducing his options further, and had Loghain take the blow.

His next choice was a bitter, dark city elf female who romanced Zevran, killed Loghain for betraying HER, told Alistair to suck it up and lose his virginity to the swamp witch (cause she didn't want to die) and made some pretty dark choices in the game.

He really enjoyed both playthroughs and was planning another run with a Dalish who romances Alistair and does the US.  And he says all have been fun so far.

And isn't that the point of playing?

Modifié par sylvanaerie, 12 février 2014 - 05:23 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

I get all of that. I actually usually kill Loghain too. That doesn't mean that this doesn't make more sense in the context of things going to hell at Ostagar and Loghain improvising in an attempt to drag the country out of the mess it was in. (Which I won't deny sent things further to hell.)

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 12 février 2014 - 06:21 .

[metatheurgist]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...
As has been previously pointed out, the deaths in Highever weren't directly Loghain's fault. And what Uldred did was his own improvisation when his connection with Loghain was exposed, and not Loghain's idea or in his interests. Everything else can fairly be attributed to Loghain, though.

So he's an incompetent villain, he's still a villain. It was his actions that led to the consequences. I guess that's consistent given his incompetent defense of Ostagar.

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...
But I'm still not sure how this supports your point. Cailan's death wasn't the direct reason any of this happened or the only way to prevent any of it, and you're failing to address our argument that said death was inevitable due to Cailan's own actions.

We don't know what would've happened if Cailan lived, we know exactly what happened because he died.

Did he manipulate Cailan into standing at the front? It was his battle plan. Why were the walls of Ostagar not rebuilt? Why was there no gate to keep? No earthworks? No pit traps? No stakes? Why didn't he have scouts in the field informing him of the size of the enemy? Why did the Darkspawn attack the tower? There was no reason for them to do so, the keep had no walls to defend, no gates to open from inside, if they wanted to flank all they had to do was march up from the undefended rear. Why did they occupy the tower? Why did the darkspawn have defences in the tower set up to repel invaders? Why was an Ogre guarding firewood? Either Loghain is the worst general ever or he planned for the defense to fail.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

metatheurgist wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...
As has been previously pointed out, the deaths in Highever weren't directly Loghain's fault. And what Uldred did was his own improvisation when his connection with Loghain was exposed, and not Loghain's idea or in his interests. Everything else can fairly be attributed to Loghain, though.

So he's an incompetent villain, he's still a villain. It was his actions that led to the consequences. I guess that's consistent given his incompetent defense of Ostagar.

Arguably. But for the most part I don't think anything Loghain does after Ostagar can be defended. I'm just pointing out the two accusations that are blatantly unfair. (Not only did Loghain's actions not lead to Howe attacking Highever, they didn't even precede the attack, though he should have punished the perpetrator. And while his actions led to the Circle Tower getting fubar'd I don't see how you can argue that it's really his fault.)

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...
But I'm still not sure how this supports your point. Cailan's death wasn't the direct reason any of this happened or the only way to prevent any of it, and you're failing to address our argument that said death was inevitable due to Cailan's own actions.

We don't know what would've happened if Cailan lived, we know exactly what happened because he died.

Did he manipulate Cailan into standing at the front?

To the best of my memory neither you nor Wiccame has offered any valid evidence to support this. Wiccame has at least come up with a consistent view of the information given in which it could be true, but hasn't shown any reason to think it's likely.

It was his battle plan. Why were the walls of Ostagar not rebuilt? Why was there no gate to keep? No earthworks? No pit traps? No stakes?

A better question would be "Why weren't there more stakes?" The rest of it is legitimate, but then I noted that Loghain doesn't really come off as competent, despite the fact that Gaider seems to picture him that way.

Why didn't he have scouts in the field informing him of the size of the enemy?

He indicates that he had men scouting. I'm willing to grant that this all looks bad for him as far as competence, but he's not that bad. As for the size of the enemy, keep in mind that a scout who ran into the main horde would he in serious danger of never reporting back. 

Why did the Darkspawn attack the tower? There was no reason for them to do so, the keep had no walls to defend, no gates to open from inside, if they wanted to flank all they had to do was march up from the undefended rear.

There was a stairway directly from the battlefield into the Tower. It might just be rotten luck brought on by that. Alternatively, the Archdemon might well be wise to any plans a Warden is being told; we already know that espionage using that link works the other way. As for a reason to attack, the darkspawn usually need one not to.

Why did they occupy the tower? Why did the darkspawn have defences in the tower set up to repel invaders? Why was an Ogre guarding firewood? Either Loghain is the worst general ever or he planned for the defense to fail.

Okay, it sounds like the implication is that Loghain somehow informed the darkspawn of the plan. If that's not the implication, please explain further. If it is, I'm not even going to argue against it until you provide some reasonable explanation for how he would go about doing that.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 13 février 2014 - 08:32 .

[Mike3207]

Why did they occupy the tower? Why did the darkspawn have defences in the tower set up to repel invaders? Why was an Ogre guarding firewood? Either Loghain is the worst general ever or he planned for the defense to fail.

Okay, it sounds like the implication is that Loghain somehow informed the darkspawn of the plan. If that's not the implication, please explain further. If it is, I'm not even going to argue against it until you provide some reasonable explanation for how he would go about doing that.

I don't think it was even necessary for Loghain to give them the plan-they likely already had it. A High Cunning warden tells Alistair that there's no reason for the darkspawn to be at the Tower unless they already know the plan. Alistair respons by saying they're not that smart, but he really looks like like he's trying to convince himself.

I'll admit Loghain's behavior regarding the Tower looks a bit suspicious, and I'm a Loghain supporter. He closes it off before the battle, and tries to put forth at the meeting that his own troops can light the signal. There's really a couple ways you can read this. One-he knew the darkspawn had control of the Tower and wanted to do what he could to mitigate circumstances. Of course, if he knew that was the case why not support Uldred's plan? That woudl be the logical thing to do.

Two-he only had suspicions that the darkspawn would be there. if that was the case, it would be logical for him to want to cut off access to the Tower.

As for Loghain cooperating with the darkspawn, it would be very difficult. They taint everything they touch, and if Loghian had been doing that he should have been tainted. He wasn't , so i think it can be safely assumed he didn't work with them. They had other ways of learning of the plan.

[Lavaeolus]

David Gaider wrote...

Either Loghain or Uldred wanted to be in control of the tower, so that they could make sure the beacon wouldn't be lit -- if it came to that. If the beacon wasn't lit, Loghain couldn't be blamed for not joining the battle in time. But, no, they had no control over the darkspawn and no way of ensuring that the tower was swamped. That was unexpected.

Really, I'm not sure how you would tell the darkspawn about it. Can't really walk up to the Archdemon and go "Hey, bud, do I have a deal for you!" Maybe lure them there with... I dunno, steak?

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Mr Maniac wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

Either Loghain or Uldred wanted to be in control of the tower, so that they could make sure the beacon wouldn't be lit -- if it came to that. If the beacon wasn't lit, Loghain couldn't be blamed for not joining the battle in time. But, no, they had no control over the darkspawn and no way of ensuring that the tower was swamped. That was unexpected.

Really, I'm not sure how you would tell the darkspawn about it. Can't really walk up to the Archdemon and go "Hey, bud, do I have a deal for you!" Maybe lure them there with... I dunno, steak?

I think Gaider also said darkspawn don't need to eat, and only do it for fun. Which means that they'd ignore the steak and just go for the living human.

[luna1124]

He always leaves and he is really angry about it too.

[Aurelet]

I never saw Loghain being responsible for Highever.  I do however see him in an alliance with Arl Howe before it went down.  He had Eamon poisoned to keep him out the battle, and I can see him telling Howe to delay the Cousland army. Not destroy the Couslands.

 

When Bryce sent his elder son along with the Army, I think Howe saw an opportunity and took it.  Once this happened I could see Loghain being pragmatic enough too see that the King had to die to prevent the Civil War Howe's actions would cause.